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[whitewolf]

go get um richard-

Bryan- i am not discussing length of service- i agree to some extent with what you mentioned about 6 months or what ever- what i was talking about is serving in peace time envirement or not being shot at-as i gave some examples of above- WW

[Bryan]

WW, No worries. One of the things that gets over looked is the large numbers of lower enlisted who fall in their first year of service during war. I believe it was E1 through E4 who had the highest death counts in Vietnam. 2nd Lieutenant was high too but they were few in numbers compared to enlisted.  Sorry I dont have time to dig through the statistics right now, maybe later.

[whitewolf]

bryan- no worries- ww

[JimH]

quote Bryan:
"One of the things that gets over looked is the large numbers of lower enlisted who fall in their first year of service during war. I believe it was E1 through E4 who had the highest death counts in Vietnam. 2nd Lieutenant was high too but they were few in numbers compared to enlisted. "

The numbers are larger for lower enlisted ranks ,for a similar reason a why there are a high number of 2nd Lt's killed.

There are a lot more people in the Lower Ranks.
As one rises in rank one finds the numbers at those rank levels,be it officers or enlisted lessens.

"Congress also limits what percentage of the total active duty force can serve in each commissioned officer rank, what percentage of the total active duty force can serve in each warrant officer rank, and what percentage of the active duty force can serve in each enlisted rank, above the grade of E-4 (there are no statutory limits for E-4 and below)."

"The Army has 401,138 enlisted members on active duty. Here's how it breaks down, by enlisted rank:

Private (E-1) - 20,284 (5.1%)
Private (E-2) - 3,334 (9.1%)
Private First Class (E-3) - 56,757 (14.1%)
Specialist/Corporal (E-4) - 107,634 (26.8%)
Sergeant (E-5) - 73,034 (18.2%)
Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 56,664 (14.1%)
Sergeant First Class (E-7) - 36,725 (9.2%)
Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8) - 10,541 (2.6%)
Sergeant Major (E-9) - 3,165 (0.8%)"

So if we look at the percentages of each rank we see that E4 and below make up 55.1% of the total enlisted ranks.
Exposure at lower ranks,below E4, to Injury and Death is therefore more than higher ranks.
The higher the rank the more removed from exposure.

[JimH]

quote
 "The real deal Special Forces and Rangers have nothing but respect for anyone that served period, end of story. "

Here is the Ranger Creed:
"Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.
Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier.

Never shall I fail my comrades I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.

Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor. "

What we learn from the Creed:
These men believe in others of like mind ,men of their units and they believe in Honor,Duty,Loyalty,Commitment .
They LOOK DOWN on those who Fail to live up to their Commitments.
They Look down on Non Hackers.

Try telling a Ranger about the Honor of someone who enlists and then backs out of their commitment to their Country and see what they have to say,see if they call them Veterans.

[Joe Hubbard]

"I wonder if free lance work counts in South Africa, probably not as we were mostly killing the ANC. How about confirmed kills, replete with pictures of people with holes in their foreheads?"

Richard- relax, it's only a family BBQ!

[Brian S]

If peopke want to twist and turn so that just about anyoe who served in the military is a "veteran," then fine.  But it surely cheapens the acheivements of thse who actually fought.

This reminds me a little of recent UK military history.  As the powers that be amalgamate various units with the Paras to form new Airborne units.... they let any old tom, dick or harry wear the coveted red beret.

Result?  One highly sought after military acheivement cheapened.

As an aside I would count those who served in Northern Ireland during the troubles as a veteran.  Not sure where I implied that I wouldn't.

[Richard Sackville]

"I wonder if free lance work counts in South Africa, probably not as we were mostly killing the ANC. How about confirmed kills, replete with pictures of people with holes in their foreheads?"

Richard- relax, it's only a family BBQ!

I am mate, there is a bottom bit missing on my last email re what the army says: It should have said got a campaign medal then you’re a veteran. This may not be fair but that’s how the MOD call it.

All cool here.

Regards

Richard

[Bryan]

If peopke want to twist and turn so that just about anyoe who served in the military is a "veteran," then fine.  But it surely cheapens the acheivements of thse who actually fought.

This reminds me a little of recent UK military history.  As the powers that be amalgamate various units with the Paras to form new Airborne units.... they let any old tom, dick or harry wear the coveted red beret.

Result?  One highly sought after military acheivement cheapened.

As an aside I would count those who served in Northern Ireland during the troubles as a veteran.  Not sure where I implied that I wouldn't.

 You seem to have done a lot of thinking about this subject. Did you ever join the military yourself or do you just like to type up a bunch of bullshit on the internet?

[JimH]

Quote Brian S:
"This reminds me a little of recent UK military history.  As the powers that be amalgamate various units with the Paras to form new Airborne units.... they let any old tom, dick or harry wear the coveted red beret.
Result?  One highly sought after military acheivement cheapened."

The US did the same thing to the US Army Rangers.
The Army Brass thought that the US Army Rangers Displayed Real Esprit De Corps and they wanted it Army wide.
The US Army Rangers wore distinctive Black Berets,since the Korean War,though not authorized until 1975 .
In 2001 the US Army went and issued Black Berets Army wide an issued every BODY a Black Beret in order to Boost their Morale.

The stupidity of it all, to some how equate that it was the Beret that made the Rangers Elite,Distinctive and or gave them Esprit De Corp,as if that can be transfered to all by allowing them to wear the MAGIC Black Beret.

Now the Rangers were the Tan Beret,similar to the SAS.

Today Everyone Must be a Veteran.
Everyone Must be Elite.
Everyone must be Special.
Few have the Balls to go through the Training to be Special and or Elite so rather than make them meet standards to have the right to wear the Black Beret we will give it out so the WEAK feel SPECIAL.

It is in society as well not just the military.

Kids cannot fail tests
There should be no champions of sport
Everyone should get a trophy.
What Politically correct BS from youth through adulthood to Old age.

We are creating a world of weak pansies who live in Dream land of Video Games with most porkers ,75 percent,unable to meet the basic Physical requirements to even enter the military.
But they all rack up kills on HALO and other couch potato games.

PC world BS

[whitewolf]

You said it-WW

[Brian S]

You seem to have done a lot of thinking about this subject. Did you ever join the military yourself or do you just like to type up a bunch of bullshit on the internet?

Bryan, you and I are certainly very different in that I have never served in the military, and you have.

Mind you, we are even more different, as I have never made any exaggerated service about military service, and you have.

Now which of us is reprehensible?

[Brian S]

A Veteran - Whether Active Duty, Retired, National Guard or Reserve - Is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount "up to and including his or her life" - Anonymous

This entire stupid thread was merely started by Bryan in the hope he could boost his imaginary status as some kind of military veteran.

How sad is that on a scale of 1 to 10?

11?

 

[arnold]

Bryan or BS... which is the greater fantasy? Readers need to know. Thoughts are welcome

[metz57]

[/quote]

  If I had ever exaggerated my service record I would have been banned off this forum.

http://bullshito.net/

[/quote]


Really? As far as I know Hock will allow anyone to post on the forum to answer allegations made against them. Wasn’t there an open invitation to Jim Wagner to come here and put his side of the story?

I followed that link you posted. It is wrong if your wife was insulted. It is also wrong of you to drag a mans family into some petty argument your having with him. It does nothing to strengthen your argument and shows you in an unpleasant light.