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[mpbelzer]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to throw this topic out for you to wrestle around with...

My experience with most systems (stick, knife,emptyhand) is that once the basics of the system are learned, techniques and drills develop that are what I term "ingenious solutions for non-existant problems".  Exponents of these methods become very coordinated working with a cooperative partner and start moving into a kind of "fantasy land" about what might happen in a combative encounter.  Hock's methods address this problem very well by always bring drills and techniques back to practical, modern, street applications using the hard lessons learned by police/military and "trained citizen" applications.  Adding "stress" into the practice of techniques and drills is important to at least simulate the kind of stress you will have to deal with in an actual encounter.

Let me know what you all think on this!

Mike

[MurrayBros]

These drills that you have dubbed "ingenious solutions to non-exsistant problems" help an instructor address the issue of what ifs.  Such as what if I am doing this great technique and he doesnt quite move the way I expected him to.  If it doesnt come up in the classroom where an instructor can say if this happens change it to this,  then they will have to learn it on the street and have to figure it out for themselves which often times is too late to learn something new.  I realize that you cannot address the infinite possibilities but the more of them you address the more prepared your students will be when the time comes to use it.

Fight the good fight,
Brian Murray

[Heath]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to throw this topic out for you to wrestle around with...


Exponents of these methods become very coordinated working with a cooperative partner and start moving into a kind of "fantasy land" about what might happen in a combative encounter.
   
Mike

 I have trained in some systems that show you good skills, for example wrist locks/cranks, and then when i fully went into Hocks CQC,,I couldn't apply 95% of the "skills" that i learned in the other arts because of the fact that i was ALWAYS allowed to get them and the person ALWAYS complied. IMO (in my opinion ) Hocks system teaches you the skill, then you practice it, then apply it..I have introduced a few people that had no previous martial arts background to Hocks system and they cant get enough of it. The like the real world approaches to everything and now they even joined the school. Dont let your students always give into the scenario...let them fight it out in a controlled environment...just my .02

[mpbelzer]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.  I agree with you that an instructor needs to cover the "what ifs" when an initial technique has been countered or is just not working.  My main point with this topic is that i have seen that most systems tend to default to "paired cooperative training".  I.E.  Two people working together, usually at 50% speed and power, starting the same and ending the same.  This method helps you gain good technique skills and even a good coordinated "flow".  The problem is when various levels of stress are introduced and application speed and power are increased to 75-100%, then many (in my opinion most) of the "advanced techniques" just don't come up.  They aren't available in a real application.  Hock's method of Killshot Sparring is a good example of a training method that adds stress and gives you an opportunity to test out your skills in "real speed".

In my opinon, the definition of "advanced technique" is "basic technique applied in a dynamic and spontaneous situation".

Let me know what you think.  I am also interested in learning more about how you approach teaching the What ifs, especially related to the stick.

Thanks!

Mike

[Professor]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.  I agree with you that an instructor needs to cover the "what ifs" when an initial technique has been countered or is just not working.  My main point with this topic is that i have seen that most systems tend to default to "paired cooperative training".  I.E.  Two people working together, usually at 50% speed and power, starting the same and ending the same.  This method helps you gain good technique skills and even a good coordinated "flow".  The problem is when various levels of stress are introduced and application speed and power are increased to 75-100%, then many (in my opinion most) of the "advanced techniques" just don't come up.  They aren't available in a real application.  Hock's method of Killshot Sparring is a good example of a training method that adds stress and gives you an opportunity to test out your skills in "real speed".

In my opinon, the definition of "advanced technique" is "basic technique applied in a dynamic and spontaneous situation".

Let me know what you think.  I am also interested in learning more about how you approach teaching the What ifs, especially related to the stick.

Thanks!

Mike

Basic technique:  Techniques that you know.
Advanced techniques Techniques that you don't know.

An advanced technique varies greatly from one person to the other.

From mike: 

My experience with most systems (stick, knife,emptyhand) is that once the basics of the system are learned, techniques and drills develop that are what I term "ingenious solutions for non-existant problems".  Exponents of these methods become very coordinated working with a cooperative partner and start moving into a kind of "fantasy land" about what might happen in a combative encounter. 

I use a number of the advanced skills in the congress to help people overcome non-productive training and to reteach basic techniques.   It's good to have the material to delve into to be able to teach critical components that might have been missed in basic training (for example, blade edge awareness of footwork and balance).   In many of the basic techniques, we are worried about basic compentency rather than technique.   For someone to be an instructor, they need the advanced work to be able to help diagnose problems in beginning students.   

Does everyone need it to survive?   Nope.   

But, If I can teach you to save .10 sec of time, or 1/2 over your opponent via correct technique it might save your life.   Sinawalli and other "dancing" techniques are good examples.   

After achieving some proficiency with sinawalli, you should be able to handle a 12" blade while working 6" from you opponent's chest.    The advance technique isn't what is going to save you....the coordination, flow, and blade awareness will....

[Rawhide]

Jeff:

What would you say are the top 10 technique problems Instructors should look for and some recommendations on correcting them?

[Professor]

Jeff:

What would you say are the top 10 technique problems Instructors should look for and some recommendations on correcting them?

Ouch....put me on the spot.  Here are a few...I'll come back and edit it later.

10.   Lazy attacks:    Instructors as well as their students become lax in their technique when throwing punches....This is typically most easily found however in their stick work (due to the extra extension). 
Solution:  Stop doing it.

9.  Watching the weapon etc.:    At times, we should concentrate specifically on the weapons.  However, I can walk in most any seminar and see instructors watching the attacks rather than keeping a soft focus. 
Solution:  Stop doing it.

8.  Misjudging distance:    Mid-level students often fight in their comfortable distance rather than staying out of range (if only a few cm/inches) and then exploding in to finish off the opponent....  the secondary mistake is getting out to quickly and not finishing the opponent.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

7. Training with a dominate foot:    We typically grown up in martial arts with one foot or the other as the dominate foot forward (e.g., boxing:  left forward).   Time needs to be spent utilizing either of our feet as the dominate foot...this should change with the situation.  Shuffle footing is good, but running forward (exploding) is best.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

6.  Utilizing one quadrant of the body at a time:     Students often forget that they can use more than one quadrant at a time (for example:  1. hit, 2. kick 3 takedown).  Why not do all three at the same time with an explosion on energy off of the rear foot.   Three step at one time....think of it as cheating for someone who can't count.   Not something to teach beginners, but for the advanced guys it's a must.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

5.  Slicing the opponent:   We have to hack and cleave more.   You have to use pressure to cut a piece of bread, or when removing a limb.   We need to sink the punch much more than we need to snap the punches.  We need to drive with the stick, cleave with the blade, and attack with the gun.  Watch Mark Lynne when he works with his hands, stick and Tom with a knife...they are two cats that get this one done right.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

4.  Being too strong: GM Ernesto Presas harrassed me for a couple of years over this one....and I finally understood what he meant.   Don't overextend your power past the place that you want it to pain to reside.  For Thai kicks:  Drive them into the opponent rather than through them.   Punch through the opponents sternum and stop at their kidneys.  Once you are too stong, you have to use to much strength to recover from the attack to defend yourself, or re-attack. 
Solution:  Stop doing it.

3.  Too tense:    Strength is good, power is good, speed is good, explosive tension is good, but you have to relax.  The "Flow" is good.    The very good martial artist/fighter etc. that we can name are relaxed and ready to counter.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

2.  Not ready:   Many, many times I watch students at seminars be surprised by an attack.   You should have at least three or four counters in your backpack (your 99% techniques) ready to go for when the Shite hit the fan.   You can't stand their and try to figure out the next move.   #2 is the number one criteria for me when I'm asked if someone is ready to test.....many times, I've said no based on this one alone. 
Solution:  Stop doing it.

10.  Poor balance:   You know this one had to be listed on the top ten list as #1 by me.   Your #1 job is to have your balance 110% of the time.   You don't have balance, and you'll take a dirt nap.   This is true for hand, stick, knife and gun.   This is the number one difference between the people that do very good martial arts and the people that are magicians.
Solution:  Stop doing it.

Ok, I'll be proactive and say that the poor grammar, misspellings, etc. are just for color and are the fault of the computer keyboard. 

I understand that I didn't detail solutions I have my flame proof underwear on....  This should be interesting....

[Rawhide]

Wow! Such easy solutions !

Thanks for the information I shall apply it!

[mpbelzer]

Hi Jeff,

I read your list of common training problems and thought they were excellent points.  I seen those problems as others train and have to constantly "check myself" against them!  Here the solutions that have worked for me...

10. LAZY ATTACKS:  Concentrate on delivering the attack angle to a specific target (the temple, elbow, knee, etc.)  as the receiver, if your partner is getting lazy in his delivery give him corrective feedback and help him tighten up his attacks.

9. WATCHING THE WEAPON: To help keep "soft focus" and activate the peripheral vision, look at the triangular area across the throat/shoulder line to the diaphram.  This allows you to see both hands and both feet move while not being "distracted" by the weapon.

8. MISJUDGING DISTANCE:  This goes back to lazy attacks and not really concentrating on hitting a specific target.  Your training partner needs to give you honest, helpful correction.

7. TRAINING WITH A DOMINANT LEG:  This is a "bad habit" to break and again leads back to being lazy and not wanting to work out of our "comfort zone".  You have to replace a bad habit with a good one and resolve to work all techniques with both sides of the body, and while moving forward and backwards.  And while we are at it, let's not forget about on our backs and our sides.  Hock is a big proponent of this training method.

6.  UTILIZING ONLY ONE QUADRANT:  Training two or three things to happen simultaneously is an "advanced" skill meaning that you must have solid basics before you can combine them.  A good trainer who can demonstrate how the combination is supposed to look and feel is the place to start.  Then it is up to you to "rep it out" until the new "combo technique" becomes "yours".

5.  SLICING THE OPPONENT:  I think Hock's "Crashing 12" drill is the best drill to develop continuous power in the striking angles.  It also develops great attitude in both delivering and receiving the strikes.  Can't go into detail here but it is a "Dos Manos" - two handed grip - one on each end of the stick vs. the 12 different angles of attack delivered in a progressivly powerful way.

4.  BEING TOO STRONG:  Working with differnet people and the "energy" they give you is important.  I would say there is light, medium and heavy (too strong) energy.  The block/pass/trap drill
 (a.k.a. the hubud) using the butt end of the stick is a good drill to experiment with the different energy levels.  If some one is being too heavy (strong) usually you just have to tell them to lighten up a bit.  Othertimes you have to demonstrate what you are experiencing for them to "get it".

3.  TOO TENSE:  Too tense and too strong go together.  The above drill is good and so is "stick wrestling".
     If I grab one end of the stick and you grab another, we can "wrestle" with it trying to dislodge it from each other's grip.  This usually goes right into "too tense" as the primary way to resist the other persons attempts.  If you keep at it you will find that you tire out quickly and the only way to keep wrestling is to relax a bit and flow more, struggle less.

2.  NOT READY:  The "Sumbrada" or "Counter for Counter" drill is an excellent drill to help develop spontaneous responses to attacks.

1.  POOR BALANCE:  There are a variety of indiviual footwork drills that can be practiced but what you really need in to be able to deal with the "forward rush" of an assailant and not be knoocked off balance.  You will need to lean a little forward into your stance and then practice with a partner on deflecting the "rush" attack.

Mike

[Professor]

Hi Jeff,

I read your list of common training problems and thought they were excellent points.  I seen those problems as others train and have to constantly "check myself" against them!  Here the solutions that have worked for me...

10. LAZY ATTACKS:  Concentrate on delivering the attack angle to a specific target (the temple, elbow, knee, etc.)  as the receiver, if your partner is getting lazy in his delivery give him corrective feedback and help him tighten up his attacks.

9. WATCHING THE WEAPON: To help keep "soft focus" and activate the peripheral vision, look at the triangular area across the throat/shoulder line to the diaphram.  This allows you to see both hands and both feet move while not being "distracted" by the weapon.

8. MISJUDGING DISTANCE:  This goes back to lazy attacks and not really concentrating on hitting a specific target.  Your training partner needs to give you honest, helpful correction.

7. TRAINING WITH A DOMINANT LEG:  This is a "bad habit" to break and again leads back to being lazy and not wanting to work out of our "comfort zone".  You have to replace a bad habit with a good one and resolve to work all techniques with both sides of the body, and while moving forward and backwards.  And while we are at it, let's not forget about on our backs and our sides.  Hock is a big proponent of this training method.

6.  UTILIZING ONLY ONE QUADRANT:  Training two or three things to happen simultaneously is an "advanced" skill meaning that you must have solid basics before you can combine them.  A good trainer who can demonstrate how the combination is supposed to look and feel is the place to start.  Then it is up to you to "rep it out" until the new "combo technique" becomes "yours".

5.  SLICING THE OPPONENT:  I think Hock's "Crashing 12" drill is the best drill to develop continuous power in the striking angles.  It also develops great attitude in both delivering and receiving the strikes.  Can't go into detail here but it is a "Dos Manos" - two handed grip - one on each end of the stick vs. the 12 different angles of attack delivered in a progressivly powerful way.

4.  BEING TOO STRONG:  Working with differnet people and the "energy" they give you is important.  I would say there is light, medium and heavy (too strong) energy.  The block/pass/trap drill
 (a.k.a. the hubud) using the butt end of the stick is a good drill to experiment with the different energy levels.  If some one is being too heavy (strong) usually you just have to tell them to lighten up a bit.  Othertimes you have to demonstrate what you are experiencing for them to "get it".

3.  TOO TENSE:  Too tense and too strong go together.  The above drill is good and so is "stick wrestling".
     If I grab one end of the stick and you grab another, we can "wrestle" with it trying to dislodge it from each other's grip.  This usually goes right into "too tense" as the primary way to resist the other persons attempts.  If you keep at it you will find that you tire out quickly and the only way to keep wrestling is to relax a bit and flow more, struggle less.

2.  NOT READY:  The "Sumbrada" or "Counter for Counter" drill is an excellent drill to help develop spontaneous responses to attacks.

1.  POOR BALANCE:  There are a variety of indiviual footwork drills that can be practiced but what you really need in to be able to deal with the "forward rush" of an assailant and not be knoocked off balance.  You will need to lean a little forward into your stance and then practice with a partner on deflecting the "rush" attack.

Mike

Hey Mike!   Thanks....I don't feel guilty anymore for not getting into the solutions....

[Nick Hughes]

Thought I might suggest a few as well...mainly come from teaching the "empty hand" arts but some of the principles will apply...


10. LAZY ATTACKS:  Use a couple here...one is in sparring...I progressively shorten the rounds till you end up with two seconds between go and stop.  If you haven't got across the gap and whacked the guy on the other side you're in big trouble outside.  Another is using focus mitts and punching.  Normally we keep the pads down till we want the trainee to throw his shot.  In the beginning we leave the pad out till he hits it, then we begin to stick it out and pull it back almost immediately.  Trains reaction time and forces you to speed up.  For a little motivation, everytime you miss you get pushups to do.  Put on the gloves and go at it full bore a la milling (UK military) or Pugil sticks (Marines).  Forces you to get going if you don't want to get clobbered.

9. WATCHING THE WEAPON: To train them out of this habit we work multiple drills i.e. more than one opponent,  all the time.  (Very rare that we spar one on one at all).  If you focus on just one person you're going to get tagged by the others.

8. MISJUDGING DISTANCE:  The drill that Hock and the guys do on the PAC videos with the staff and the blocker is great for this.   Teaches them to get in and out of range faster than just about anything else I've ever seen.

7. TRAINING WITH A DOMINANT LEG:  Used to make my guys do two kicks with their weak leg for every kick with the good.  Wasn't long before they were kicking better with the left than the right.  Other nights we'd force them to train and spar all night long with the weak leg forward.

6.  UTILIZING ONLY ONE QUADRANT:  Used to do sparring drills where one side could only attack the head and the other only the body...or one could block and one could only attack...or one could only kick and one could only punch etc.  Forces people out of their comfort zones and gets them thinking.  You can mix and match these as well i.e. one side can kick only the head and the other can only punch the body etc.

5.  SLICING THE OPPONENT:  When a student wasn't strong enough we'd put them on the heavy bag and have them practise breaking techniques.  Also lots of plyo-metrics to develop explosive power.

4.  BEING TOO STRONG: Put them on drills till they were worn out and had no energy left then they were forced to find alternate routes.

3.  TOO TENSE:  Throw them into a few months of Judo.  Anyone who tenses up, standing or on the ground, gets cleaned up quick.  You learn pretty fast not to tense up.

2.  NOT READY:  Short reaction sparring drill as cited above.  Also, attack them anytime anywhere.  Jeff Cooper used to do a drill with his students like this where he said play a game with the cops.  Everytime they got you speeding you got a mark against you.  You have to drive like they're  not looking to shoot you with the radar but with a rifle.  Keep a score.  We also used to do drills with the mitts and pads whereby when it pops up you hit it but from wherever you are..i.e. no taking stances first.

1.  POOR BALANCE:  Great warmup drill and an excellent drill for balance is to have them grab each other's arms and push and pull each other round the room.  You're not allowed to sweep, punch, kick etc but purely use your legs and arms and push, pull, yank each other in an attempt to get the other guy off balance.  This one wears people out fast and teaches incredible balance in no time.  You can augment it and make it more like Sumo in two ways...either make them stay in a designated space or do it outside or on mats and make it a competition to get some bodypart of your opponent other than than the soles of their feet to touch the ground.

Hope some of them help

N

[mpbelzer]

Hey Ninor!

Excellent solutions!  Your balance drill  is extreamly useful.  I use it with the small group I train with.  We also add different aspects to it each round:

Rd. 1 - Gripping & movement only.  Push/ pull /twist.  This can be done with "Stick Wrestling" too.  Many variations are possible; single hand, double grip, two sticks etc.

Rd. 2 - Add knees to diaphram and thighs (groin  too). These are done as "friendly placements" and not designed to hurt your partner.

Rd. 3 - Add stomps and both foot and leg sweeps.

Rd. 4 - Add hand strikes and elbows (usually palms to groin and very short elbows - you really have to watch for safety here.

Rd. 5 - Stay relaxed and mix it all up.

A 5 minute warm up that covers a lot of the CQ basics!

Mike

[Professor]

Hey Ninor!

Excellent solutions!  Your balance drill  is extreamly useful.  I use it with the small group I train with.  We also add different aspects to it each round:

Rd. 1 - Gripping & movement only.  Push/ pull /twist.  This can be done with "Stick Wrestling" too.  Many variations are possible; single hand, double grip, two sticks etc.

Rd. 2 - Add knees to diaphram and thighs (groin  too). These are done as "friendly placements" and not designed to hurt your partner.

Rd. 3 - Add stomps and both foot and leg sweeps.

Rd. 4 - Add hand strikes and elbows (usually palms to groin and very short elbows - you really have to watch for safety here.

Rd. 5 - Stay relaxed and mix it all up.

A 5 minute warm up that covers a lot of the CQ basics!

Mike

Ya'll are right on the mark.  I really didn't consider these just for stick....but that was the questions.   All can be adapted to empty-hands....

[crane2]

10/19/04

Thanks to Jeff and Mike on the top ten training problems list and the solutions!!!  Your guidance and expertise are appreciated.

On the topic of "what if's"... I trained in the traditional martial arts for many years...the majority of the training was done in a static environment, with at cooperative partner and at around 50% speed...as a result, many of the "what if's" never came up...everyone was taught the same techniques (male, female, kids, adults...in much the same manner).  I trained this way for longer than I care to admit.  I earned an advanced level black belt and could hold my own in class, won a few trophies etc...but I had this nagging little voice in the back of my head that kept saying..."but could you really defend yourself?"   
Well- I was introduced to my present instructor who teaches Filipino Combatives and Hock's material...One night Steve, my instructor and I sparred.  The majority of the techniques I tried didn't work because the conditions under which I had to apply them changed and because I really didn't understand the theory behind when to use what technique.  The pace was faster, more realistic.  Between the sparring and the scenarios...But boy was I hooked because I knew what Steve was doing was realistic for self defense.  This stuff is wonderful!  I'm learning and teaching realistic self defense which I believe in.
As for the "what if..." sometimes the questions just come up when doing scenerios, drill and sometimes during randori drillls...controlled but spontaneous...
Thanks again for the tips.  I know they'll help us and our students!
Karen 

[Kentbob]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for weighing in on this topic.  I agree with you that an instructor needs to cover the "what ifs" when an initial technique has been countered or is just not working.  My main point with this topic is that i have seen that most systems tend to default to "paired cooperative training".  I.E.  Two people working together, usually at 50% speed and power, starting the same and ending the same.  This method helps you gain good technique skills and even a good coordinated "flow".  The problem is when various levels of stress are introduced and application speed and power are increased to 75-100%, then many (in my opinion most) of the "advanced techniques" just don't come up.  They aren't available in a real application.  Hock's method of Killshot Sparring is a good example of a training method that adds stress and gives you an opportunity to test out your skills in "real speed".

In my opinon, the definition of "advanced technique" is "basic technique applied in a dynamic and spontaneous situation".

Let me know what you think.  I am also interested in learning more about how you approach teaching the What ifs, especially related to the stick.

Thanks!

Mike

Yep, Mike, I think you hit the head on the nail.  My gunfighting instructor said that the advanced techniques are simply the basics done faster, a layman's way of saying what you said.

[Rawhide]

Mike & Ninor:

Thanks so much for your info!  Its great to hear others suggestions and take a peak at other instructrutor's perspectives on what to look for in corrections.  Troubleshooting is difficult topic as it takes a proerly trained eye to see what to change.  Appreciate all your input!

Got another question:

What is format and focus of one of your basic, intermediate and advanced stick training classes?  I'd be interested in what the actual curriculum would be for a class at each level.

Thanks!!

[Hock]

This is gettiing some reading lately by the "Drive-Bys"

Hock

[shastana]

Nice, and from the pros!  Thanks guys.  Thanks Mike! Stress makes your mind overload, animal comes out of your skin, and survival is all you are focusing on.  Stress training is the greatest aspect of "usable advanced" techniques. I know you train a ton in stress combat situations with RAW and Meridith.  You are right on the money!

The more complicated things get, the more chances there are for failure.  With Hock's system, I see there are very basic themes that spill over from UC to knife to stick.  The biomechanics are the same for all the above, strikes, disarms, takedowns, they are done basically the same way for any weapon.  That is the stuff you want in your muscle memory.  Ah the simplicity, Hock is like the Bruce Lee of modern combatives.

I'd have to say that I have never been in a situation where a stick or blunt object was my first choice, but I sure can wield a stick better than some idiot on the street thanks to CQCG.  Did throw a busted table leg at someone once, and it stuck in the wall next to his head, what a suprise that was!  Didn't even know I could throw like that!  But my point is that all the fancy parade whirling stick techniques are just for conditioning, advancement in a system, unless of coarse your name is Remy or equal.

[Hock]

This is a great topic to review...and enhance, about 6 years old.

How many times in martial training are people working way too much on situations least likely to occur.

Hock

[Professor]

There's some good stuff in here....needs to be compressed and into a FAQ.

Something to do while sitting in a hospital bed.....