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[redcap]

How very High Noon, Redfive. It must be such a thrill reliving gunfight at the OK Corral every day. Don't do the Little Big Horn though, your lot lost that one. Do you ever wear your chaps backwards to see if it feels better?

Your High School had a rifle range in the middle? No shit? I would have loved a high school like that when I was a teenager. That was back in the Cold War days, I had to do my shooting in the cadets and then lie about my age to join the Army Reserve when I was 15. On weekends my mate and I would work the butts (that's where the targets are, Arnold) for the local gun club at ANZAC Rifle Range in Malabar for ammo to shoot with in lieu of pay. (.303 SMLE MkIII* and No4's, hell of a kick but very accurate)

But like I said before, when I need a firearm, I get one. I'm not anti-gun, just anti-idiot and there are more than enough of those everywhere without having to arm them too. I am sure your 300,000 citizens are safe because when anybody 'might' have a weapon, everybody tends to be a little more respectful. For me it is a tool not a toy but you enjoy your yippee shoots off the back porch. I used to fire a .22 revolver into phone books in my hallway (with the stereo cranked up or else I'd make a field expedient suppressor).
Redap

[Brian S]

At least I have a gun to kill or not to kill. what do you have ? Rocks, little pussy police bottons. And yes shooting does get me hard? Better then any Viagra. As far shooting at little brained mammals, well glad you weren't around.                                                              

This stuff should go straight onto Michael Moore's web site.  It does more for his cause than any stuff he churns out.

[redcap]

And he (Redfive) is armed to the teeth and prepared to kill, well doves and such but still... I think it is quite an alien mindset to us, Brian. I do think that hoping all the guns will go away is not the answer and while they are such a huge part of the American psyche (I almost used the word 'culture', silly me) it doesn't make sense to be the only unarmed and rational person in a room full of heavily armed borderlines. A bit like the UK Govt expecting the IRA to surrender their weapons, then talks could begin. Like that was a fair thing? I am no fan of terrorists of any ilk but it seemed preposterous logic to have done that.

While I mentioned that one can't argue that if there is no gun present then three year olds can't shoot themselves with it, there is another side to that truism. If there had been a shooting range in the middle of Columbine High School or all the faculty and half the student body of Virginia Tech were armed then both of those tragedies might have been averted or at worst the casualty count kept in single digits.

I think anyone with a grudge who wants to brass up unarmed people should put an ad on eBay for a High Noon shoot out or duel ala pistols at dawn. I am sure someone would oblige, in fact I think many would leap at the opportunity. The networks could cover it and even make a reality tv series out of it, everybody makes money and once again capitalism wins the day.

And finally, if there were no guns then the crazies would find some other method of murdering, it just wouldn't be so quick and gregarious.
Redcap

[VicMackey]

Michael Moore is a fat piece of left-wing trash. He needs to be kicked out of the US along with Obama, Brady, Pelosi, Biden and the rest of the leftists.

[redfive]

 Well this is a debate that will go on for along time. But change that is slow is not as noticeable or intrusive to people. I would say that in 2 to 3 generations from now, it is feasible that there could be gun bans and heavy control. Once all the old dogs, like my self are gone. And know one who remembers the good old days is left to bitch about it.
 Just like the gun range in my old high school is gone. The JROTC rifle team used it. Guns and school no longer go to gether. For obvious reasons. A few bad apples spoil the bunch.
  My question for Brian and Redcap is. What is the mind set difference between the UK and the USA? What would happen if the UK police Traded places with the U.S. police. I think the people of the UK would feel threatend and uncomfortable and would feel less safe with fully armed police then with out. Likewise the U.S. would feel less safe without armed police and then there is the criminal element of this. UK crime would not change, but U.S. crime would triple and be out of control. Here police and guns go hand in hand . If you don't have a gun you don't get the respect. FBI, CIA, sheriffs, state troopers, local police. With out the gun you are not law enforcement in the minds of the public. yet in the UK people seem to respect that. Is this because the bad guys there don't have them or is it that they respect the uniform and the authority more? I think even if bad guys in the states didn't have gun and police didn't either, that it would be a full out hand to hand combat nightmare every day and night . What would it take to get the mind set of the  UK to be the same in the states?
                                                                              Redfive

[VicMackey]

I would still give Redcap credit, though. He knows how to debate his different views from a more civilized manner. And, I can agree to disagree with him on certain issues. That, we can both live with.

[redcap]

  My question for Brian and Redcap is. What is the mind set difference between the UK and the USA? What would happen if the UK police Traded places with the U.S. police. I think the people of the UK would feel threatend and uncomfortable and would feel less safe with fully armed police then with out. Likewise the U.S. would feel less safe without armed police and then there is the criminal element of this. UK crime would not change, but U.S. crime would triple and be out of control. Here police and guns go hand in hand . If you don't have a gun you don't get the respect. FBI, CIA, sheriffs, state troopers, local police. With out the gun you are not law enforcement in the minds of the public. yet in the UK people seem to respect that. Is this because the bad guys there don't have them or is it that they respect the uniform and the authority more? I think even if bad guys in the states didn't have gun and police didn't either, that it would be a full out hand to hand combat nightmare every day and night . What would it take to get the mind set of the  UK to be the same in the states?
                                                                              Redfive

I can't speak for the UK or Brian but here in Australia most of our police are armed. Victoria Police used to not be but now are and I am afraid most of the cop shooting crim/civilian incidents happen there. In fact most of the nutter civilian with gun incidents happened there when they had the strictest gun laws and the least happened in Tasmania where you could own a machine gun if you wished.

Funny how when they tried to grab our guns the first time they said a massacre would have to happen in Tasmania to make it work across the country. A year later Port Arthur went down but don't start me on that load of BS here. End result was they dusted off the draconian gun laws they had shelved and they were passed immediately in every state and territory. Hmmmm.

Since then there has been no real change in gun crime other than more criminals (larger overall population) means more  crimes yet the percentages are stable. Of course criminals never really bothered with licensed firearms before the gun control happened. They still don't and they seem to have no problem getting them, despite the Amnesty and Gun Buy Back which saw friends of mine make a motza for old rusty .22 single shots while they stored their serious iron for happier times ahead. Crimes with registered guns never made it past 1% of registered weapon owners, even in loose states like Queensland and Tasmania.

I could rustle up half a dozen short ones and twice as many long ones and a couple that shoot lots of bullets in a few phone calls if I had to. Luckily our society is a lot safer than most in the US I suppose.

As for the switch over, the respect should be for the office, not the officer and not the equipment he carries. Which is not to say the officer shouldn't behave in a manner engendering the respect and assistance of the public he serves. In the MPs we had to lead by example, always. If that meant getting up an hour earlier so our turnout was immaculate, even after a week in the field, we did it. Esprit de Corps.

If it were British officers in the UK with guns, I would say no problem. But the public would be very worried about having US officers armed and on their streets, I know here in Australia we would feel that way. Your reputation precedes you and more so if the USAF was providing air cover. Shoot first and Hoo Rah and all that. Sorry, but that is a common perception (misconception?).

I also wonder about the US predilection for having more of your nation in prison than anyone else in the world? Of course prisons are profit centers like everything else and without a steady stream of customers the system would go broke. Hence the ongoing 40 year (lost) war on drugs. It keeps millions in work, from law enforcement to corrective services to social services to suppliers of laundry powder etc. The war on abstract emotions (such as terror) is another money spinner, and spender, but then spending keeps it all going, doesn't it?

Swapping cops is an interesting concept but not a workable one. The police should emanate from within the community they serve. They should be culturally in tune and understand the societal idioms to effectively provide policing. You can't do that scaring one lot and emboldening the other. Although I think while the UK cops might take a few casualties at first, they would soon have the respect of the criminals and the community. Of course, to get respect, you have to offer it in the first place.
Redcap

PS VicMackey, thank you for your kind comments. Even us 'lefties' need appreciation sometimes.

[VicMackey]

Steady on Brian S. You could set our argument back with personal attacks like that. Just as we were beginning to win a few over to the light side of the Force, too.  
Redcap

Don't pay him no mind, Redcap. He is just trying to win you as an ally and he is desperate. Nothing wrong with a debate, and you debate very well with a lot of supporting statements. He is making this whole thing personal. You see, he called me an idiot. We can all go on without him. And, you are very welcome from my compliments.

[VicMackey]

So, your cops in Australia are armed? Well, at least they got the means to protect themselves. Makes a lot of sense. Been in the Navy for 15 yrs. now and your country is one of our favorite ports of call. Never got a chance to go there since I have been stationed on the east coast of the US.
Is there still private gun ownership there? I heard that owners have to store them in govt.-mandated storage lockers. Again, it's just what your govt. wanted. How do the population feel about it over there?

[VicMackey]

Redcap, I have a concealed hadgun permit from my state of VA and been doing it for about a decade. I am also Filipino-American, by the way, just like you stated your father in law. For an incident with an attacking dog, I am glad I did had my pistol with me that night. I tried other means to avoid it like calling animal control. They never came to get the dog. And a patrolman sent by the police even tried to lure the dog to get away. But it came and lunged me despite my commanding it to sit and leave. Killed it with one shot. Suffered for about 10 sec. before it collapsed and died. It was a justifiable shot but I did felt bad. I still remember the image of the dog dying even to this day. It was not something I enjoyed but it was something I had to do to survive. But I am relieved that I did not end up becoming the victim of a dog attack. I agree with you, there are guns that are used for the wrong reasons here in the US. But there are also situations like this in which a gun has saved a life, let alone saved a life without firing a shot. For anyone who is not willing to take life to defend his/her own life or others, a gun is not the answer.

[VicMackey]

Well this is a debate that will go on for along time. But change that is slow is not as noticeable or intrusive to people. I would say that in 2 to 3 generations from now, it is feasible that there could be gun bans and heavy control. Once all the old dogs, like my self are gone. And know one who remembers the good old days is left to bitch about it.
 Just like the gun range in my old high school is gone. The JROTC rifle team used it. Guns and school no longer go to gether. For obvious reasons. A few bad apples spoil the bunch.
  My question for Brian and Redcap is. What is the mind set difference between the UK and the USA? What would happen if the UK police Traded places with the U.S. police. I think the people of the UK would feel threatend and uncomfortable and would feel less safe with fully armed police then with out. Likewise the U.S. would feel less safe without armed police and then there is the criminal element of this. UK crime would not change, but U.S. crime would triple and be out of control. Here police and guns go hand in hand . If you don't have a gun you don't get the respect. FBI, CIA, sheriffs, state troopers, local police. With out the gun you are not law enforcement in the minds of the public. yet in the UK people seem to respect that. Is this because the bad guys there don't have them or is it that they respect the uniform and the authority more? I think even if bad guys in the states didn't have gun and police didn't either, that it would be a full out hand to hand combat nightmare every day and night . What would it take to get the mind set of the  UK to be the same in the states?
                                                                              Redfive

Which JROTC you were in? I was in the Navy JROTC for 4 yrs. Too bad my ghetto public school system never allowed gun training when there was an accident in a marksmanship competition. So we only had air rifle familiarization training once the whole time and that was it.

[Eden]

Some of the replys from this thread were deleted because the person making them had reduced himself to name calling rather than supporting his opinion with sources, genuine perspective or fact.  Since they contained none of the aforementioned--I don't think you will miss them--or their source. That person's membership on the forum was also terminated.  Gentlemen, play nice.

[redcap]

Basically gun ownership laws are now Australia wide whereas before 1997 or so they were state by state. You can own a semi-automatic weapon up to a 5 round capacity, same for bolt action. No magazines larger than 5 rounds. You need a place to shoot, so written permission from a rural landowner or a club membership to get the permit to own. There are strict storage rules as well, special gun safes and so forth. Pistol owners need to belong to a club and can only own a handgun after a period of membership. Stricter storage rules are in force for home storage. Basically you would never get to the gun and then the ammo in time unless you broke the rules but few people keep a hand gun for home defense. Most prefer shotguns but then these are usually out on a property somewhere. I keep a Kris over the front door to ward off the Onggu's and a mattock handle behind the sofa. I've yet to have to hit any of the local traditional landowners when they give us grief on benefit night (when they have money for beer, see) but it is comforting to have it handy. There's a cut-down hickory hoe handle at the back door, just in case. I likes me sticks!

As for killing dogs, I killed mine with a hammer. It was a five week old puppy suffering in a plastic sack in the gutter outside my house in Talisay, Cebu. The mad woman across the street would tie them to a pole in her yard and beat them with bamboo, then toss them across the street to my gate and leave them there to die. She would do this every other month. Usually they were finally dead by the time she tossed them, after they had suffered for hours, even days in her clutches. I rang the authorities but nobody cared, I tried to intervene but was warned she had powerful relatives who would take my Kano ass interfering as an insult to their Pinoy honour and so we had to watch the poor wretches suffer. Finally one day I hopped her fence and killed the poor thing in her yard with a hammer blow, told her what I thought of her and her ilk in fluent Anglo-Saxon and Visayan and never had another problem. I can still see it if I think about it, too so I don't think about it.
Redcap
PS My father in law is not Filipino-American, he's pure Pinoy. Papa Jusing and Mama Alice are the salt of the earth, great people. I'm looking forward to going to the cockfights with him next week when we're there.