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Author Topic: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory  (Read 13127 times)

Crafty

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Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« on: February 15, 2010, 06:05:56 AM »

Mind training

One thing i noticed a lot of people focusing on developing power,speed,technique etc but me personally put the right mindset first any veiws on this.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 10:13:49 AM by Hock »
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled agression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 09:46:11 AM »

Agreed.

I think that without the correct mind set in place physical training for combatives, personal protection etc is a waste of time, it just becomes an exercise in punch kick. Mindset training needs to involve using all the senses to "create" the mental environment to fully absorb what it is you are trying to do.

I think i read some where that the brain cannot tell the difference between an actual evnt or an imageined one, to the brain its all real.
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Hock

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Re: Controlled agression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 10:13:27 AM »

"I think i read some where that the brain cannot tell the difference between an actual event or an imagined one, to the brain its all real."

You know I've read line before a time or two, here and there...and I am a serious reader about the brain....not a medical person. But, as a novice reading profesional opinions, I just don't believe there is any real sound basis for it. I mean, they might somehow be talking about a certain small part or function of the brain going through robotic motions? Maybe that?

In the big picture I think the overall mind knows what it is perceiving as real and what is not, therefore there is a difference in a biological responses. If there is anyone here that can find some real "chapter and verse" on this, it would be interesting. I always knew and know exactly what is training and what is real. And act accordingly. Its a mind game?

Hock
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 10:15:46 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Controlled agression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 10:24:20 AM »

A person can hit pads,bags and do pad and focus drills all day long,without the proper flip the switch to action mindset they will have skills sets unable to be properly acted on.

You can find people who have the ability to flip the switch to violence of action ,who have little to no training,and they most likely will dominate an encounter.

Quote
"I think i read some where that the brain cannot tell the difference between an actual evnt or an imageined one, to the brain its all real."

One can IMAGINE Reality.
The Brain can lend itself to create scenarios and solutions
But
the Reality of life adds in actions the brain must resolve in the moment of action,and that is why REALITY is Different Than Imagined Theory.

Many people say they use realistic video's or DVD's of violence,of Blood and Guts IMAGINED Reality to Desensitize to the REALITY fo potential Violence
What a crock
Anyone who has seen,smelled ,slipped in the blood and felt it on them knows that is NOT The Same as Imagined REALITY of Visualization or TV.
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 12:59:42 PM »

As I said I think i read it some where, I think that in part (im not sure where) its a true statement. When dealing with EDP often times what they see, feel, smell etc isn't real in a...physical sense? but to them its real enough, this menatl state often does create measurable biological'physical changes. Not sure if  that the same thing or not.
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 07:42:16 PM »

Ill have to say (and i am not a doctor by any means)- that the mind reacts to a incident immediately and one responds immediately...
 i.e. someone sneaks up on you and says BOO-you jump,duck or smack him
in any event something occured and the reaction occured-you did not know if it was real or just someone playing a joke-you did something....hope that makes sense..
WW(ELB) "speed of light"
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2010, 10:42:20 AM »

Canuk,
Yes the mind can imagine things and YES they do seem real,in the mind.
Yes an EDP,someone with a mental problem,drug,problem,alcohol problem can and do Experience realistic situations CREATED by the mind.
Even when we dream,in sleep ,we can have movement and breathing that relates to the realistic PERCEPTIONS the mind is experiencing.

If though we imagine an attacker and we go through mental setups and respond with strikes to a pad ,that is training on the theoretical level.
We are acting out a mental,theoretical situation.
A Real fight/encounter will allow most times only one dictated /trained response ,which is your first response.
Anything after the first response is dependent upon the action /reaction of the opponent.

As we train in mental situations we do not get near an adrenaline dump,we do not experience fear,we do not get to flight or flight,we just work out.

Now if we took some mind altering drug and we did pad drills and our mind imagined the Pads coming at us in a threatening way,then we may develop the physiologic responses,but again this is due to an ALTERED mental state in addition to a physical involvement activity.
(most do not do this form of mental/physical training)

We can sit and visualize attacks and defenses  and or view movies/fight clips and programed responses to attacks but they are not REAL,they are not developing mind and body functional responses,they are developing mental/theoretical responses to a given scenario only.
My opinion.

WW,
We act to stimulus that is TRAINED responses from childhood.
Take a baby and move quickly towards it and it will close its eyes,not cover its face with arms or hands.
Make a loud noise and the eyes close.
As the child grows and learns movement it adapts the eyes closing along with movement to sound as protection,duck,cover or turn and strike out.
These are Realistic LEARNED and Trained responses from childhood.

Most people will not turn and strike out,most people will just duck and cover,a learned /trained response.
A cover,turn and strike is also a learned,trained response with an added Learned,Trained and DEVELOPED response to Realistic ,PRIOR situations.

These reactions are not just mental images which have become real.

My opinion
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we look at the use of simulators we see that to be EFFECTIVE they must have ,and provide,Realistic mental situations ALONG with physical movement and Physical participation to the mental stimulus.

If one sat in a flight simulator and did NOTHING but took in the sights and sounds provided would they learn to fly ?
NO
No Matter how hard they tried to visualize the physical responses to the input data they WOULD NOT LEARN to actually perform those skills WITHOUT DOING the physical side.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 06:36:29 PM by Hock »
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2010, 12:33:57 PM »

Yeah, Im thinking the difference between the conscious and sub conscious here and how events/memorys, real or imagened are stored, processed etc. I have a friend that deals with this kind of stuff, ill ask him. The only problem with that is ill get some big scientific explanation atht will run right over the top of me.
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2010, 06:34:55 PM »

Canuk-please keep it simple-thanks WW
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hessian1

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2010, 08:36:26 PM »


   I'm going to have to go back to my library for citable sources from research, but what I remember of this topic is that deep visualization of the performance of a physical skill will help reinforce the nueral pathways that are actually used in the performance of that skill  This is not quite the same as performing the skill, but can help shorten the repetitions needed to perform the skill at an optimum level or can help retain the ability at an already gained level.

    As to practicing skills with aggressive attitude, this is more along the lines of developing power by harnessing an emotional state or gaining the ability to access the skills in that emotional state.  The most interesting work I’ve seen on these concepts in the field of combative/self protection comes from Rich Grannon and his background in psychology and  NLP (from which he has recently severed his official ties due to politics). 

Keep safe and train hard/smart,  Mark H
   
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Keep safe and train hard,  Mark H

Hock

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2010, 09:03:12 PM »

That would be the Grannon of the Systema-the Questions Answered Fame?
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,1993.0.html

The one who worked with SAS fraud Spour and had to apologize later?
Well, hopefully he can lead us to someone beyond him with a M.D. / P.H.D. after his name. Like no one should listen to me as some kind of psychological expert, no one should listen to Grannon either. We are both laymen.

I think everyone here is trying to look up and think about a special method of mind game where you work your mind into such a fervor that you hpnotize yourself into thinking the training situation is real just before it starts. But this is not the context of the original statement. I think the last time I heard the remark "the brain can't tell the difference whether you are training or not" was in a Calibre press Street Survival interview clip. Surprisingly.

There are people who think that normal training a brain can't tell. In that context, I just don't believe so. There has to be another context! It is possible I might be able to dig this clip up, but the remark is only said in passing...

I'll see...

Hock
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 09:06:21 PM by Hock »
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 11:35:51 PM »


There are people who think that normal training a brain can't tell. In that context, I just don't believe so. There has to be another context! It is possible I might be able to dig this clip up, but the remark is only said in passing...

IIRC it comes from that mental rehersal experiment where students were divided into 3 groups, one shot baskets, one visualized shooting baskets, and the other did nothing.
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 02:28:16 PM »

Here is a paper on the Nueroscience of Basketball
It relates to watching the playersIntriguingly
http://neuronism.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/nothing-but-networks-of-neurons/

Exerpt:
"Intriguingly, the elite athletes’ advantage seems to stem not from being better able to visualise the path of the ball through the air, but from a superior ability to read body movements before the ball has left the player’s hands."

NLP is also what tony Robbins teaches.
Modeling is the key concept.
(in realtion to this topic)
find a peron who is an expert in the field or sport you want to excel in.
Have that person perform the task and or watch video of them performing the task.
you must study the performance from approach,posture,breathing,try to establish the mental state,then copy the EXACT method of the performer.
Then you must apply the action
Going step by step replicating the exact actions.
This is repeated over and over until the goal is met.

So from the paper listed above to Robbins NLP application visualization is used to identify the process of EXCELLENT Performance,this visualiztion is then put into actual performance and repeated exactly until the desired result is ontained.

Here is a brief write up of Tony Robbins Unlimited Power:
http://www.motivationalmagic.com/library/ebooks/success/success%20-%20Book%20Summary%20-%20Anthony%20Robbins%20-%20Unlimited%20Power.pdf

I have Robbins NLP
I have Nightengale Conants NLP
I have Gannons NLP course.
Gannon is a qualified instructor of NLP.

Gannon's materials are basic and will give you the same core Concepts of NLP as Tony Robbins does,only Gannon's Materials are A LOT LESS.
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2010, 03:41:22 PM »

JimH-you mentioned a switch to the action mind set-i think as stated -the way one is brought up has a lot to do with the way one reacts in a real situation on the street-
criminal elements are a prime example-the careet criminal who has been brought up in a bad child hood where they faught for evrything is quicker to act and to attack than the adult who has been brought up in a "normal household" where they did not have to fight or protect them selves.
The student of self defense who never was in a real altercation will be slower to react than the "animal" who survived from a real attack.
i.e.-the black belt who allowed him self to be tied up by Charles Matson a few years ago.
That was a prime example of not reacting immediately and "attacking."
Another example would be the full contact karate fighter-when approached they switch on the switch .
WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2010, 06:01:43 PM »

I fully agree,the way,or the place, one is brought up definately reflects on the ability of the person to flip the switch to action or not.
but
we know that flipping the switch is needed to power up the aggression and violence of action needed to act or react to a threat.

Some of us have had the opportunity to learn to flip the switch at an early age,some have learned later,some have never learned it.

One does not have to have been raised in a bad child hood to have learned to flip the switch.
I was raised in a Bronx NY Neighborhood in which fighting for your place in the group was expected .
If you hung outside and played outside, which we all did then, as being a house potato was not a thing done then,you learned the social heirarchy that the fittest and toughest ruled.
You learned to fight at the drop of a hat,to flip the switch.

Gangs and or kids who hang out today,still live by those rules,rules the house potato/couch potato/latch key kids/nerds/Geeks or whatever you want to call them have not learned and have not YET encountered.

Many teaching Martial arts today,who are young instructors never encountered the fight for you place in the group mentaility and have most likely Never had a REAL fight.
They teach theory.

Those who have grown up and fought for a place,fought to keep our stuff,fought to fight,fought for fun,(though for Real with real drastic injury potential) we know the need to flip the switch and we know we need to teach it to the less fortunate who truly seek self offense/defense education.

It is not learned by lining up to spar.
That is training
That is exercise that is NOT Training to flip the switch to action.
The switch to action is taught by getting in a students face,grabbing with intent,pushing and pulling and having them act or react immediately,not at some point after they have been struck a few times.
Immediate Action Drills.

A football player learns to flip the switch by watching the ball.
When the Ball moves it cues the player to Immediate Action.

For Street Offense/Defense the cue is someone closing inside your space,making contact,ready to make contact,or verbal cues that signal a threat.

The switch is flipped and the aggression,(controlled),is available,as soon as the threat is verified by the threats being verbal or physical,the controlled aggression is released as Violence of action of the type to terminate the conflict as fast as possible.

No posing,no posturing,no engagement in verbal escalation,just an immediate clash,hopefully unexpected by the attacker who thought his choice of victims was less inclined to act in this way.

We are not obligated to,nor must we WAIT until fired upon/struck with strikes or kicks by the attacker to act.
We are allowed to act as soon as we feel the threat,the fear for our safety and we are prevented from getting away until/unless we act.

We are not kicking or striking for points but to disable.
Take the knees,the elbows,target the groin,face,nose, neck,eyes,throat,bladder,shut this attacker down and take them out FAST.

That is flipping the Switch to action.
If it is failed to be taught and or Failed to be learned then the end result is probably being a badly injured victim with some useless training behind you.

my opinion
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rasdj

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2010, 10:33:45 PM »

i believe that "the brain can't tell difference between real and imagined" is a leap made from studies that show the same/similar portions of the brain light up whether you are looking at an object or a picture of the object. can't take of the exact page/chapter but the book The Brain That Changes Itself mentions this. This tendency in the brain is why visualizations are a tool in the top athletes toolbox. obviously they are not top athletes because of Jedi mind tricks and alot of physical doing to stuff training happens.
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2010, 03:36:43 AM »

JimH-i agree- along those lines a very good friend of mine (who is a Greek special forces type over in Athens) told me once the following.

To be alert-while walking in the street "listen" to what is behind you-prepare your self
as the sound comes closer. If it starts to come faster (footsteps) then you prepare yourself mentally (that would be turning on the switch)

You would move /react according to what is happening before it reachs you.
 
Hope that makes sense- ever sense then I apply that and pass it on to students.

Great for security/police/shoppers/travelers-it heightens your senses so to speak.

WW (ELB) "speed of light"
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2010, 03:47:10 AM »

This also stems from how people can create a “false reality” by convincing themselves that something is real.  In other words, if somebody convinces themselves that they are sick, eventually many of these people will become ill.  If somebody worries that something bad is going to happen, reinforcing this with daily affirmations of doom and gloom, often their false reality comes true.  If somebody dreams vividly, when they awake emotions that were evoked can carry over for hours before they rationalise that it was all just a dream.
Whether or not you will tell the difference between a real attack and a simulated one speaks for itself, but the brain theory allows somebody to rehearse the real event without going into a dangerous situation with a “dear in the headlights” mentality.

This is a pretty good book about the complexities of the human mind:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bright-Air-Brilliant-Fire-Revolutionary/dp/0465007643/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=II8IG515JOV7E&colid=3ETP6OMSDTLML

Is it real or is it Memorex?

Joe
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 08:29:04 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2010, 09:34:32 AM »

Visualization ALONG with the physical can and does enhance performance,as the Visual exercise is supposed to allow us to see ourselves doing a physical activity and we can run though how it is SUPPOSED to be done
Then we MUST REPLICATE the Visual in an ATTEMPT to perfect the action,(which takes time and repetition)

I would disagree with the idea that Visualization allows us to rehearse Real Events with out being in a Dangerous situation,with a caught in the headlights effect.

I know MANY who train in Various Martial arts and they have trained,Visualized,and participated in sparring,reached various levels of Black Belt and when the REALITY of Conflict came on them they Froze and or failed to act in an immediate fashion and got their butts handed to them.

To me
NOTHING replicates REALITY of CONFLICT like the REALITY of CONFLICT.

If we are trainers and we present sport based sparring /fighting with no surprise,no immediate threat of injury then we are not going to PREVENT the caught in the Headlights freezing up when immediate threat faces the student.

If an individual does not have the immediate response to threat,(flip the switch),in them from childhood and or are not taught it,you can train and visualize all you want and you WILL NOT ,in the majority of cases ,flip the switch.
I say WILL NOT in the Majority of cases as there maybe a stimulus that will drive you to act immediately,maybe a threat to a loved one on the scene or something else,but in most cases if you never experienced a REAL Threat and NEVER actually flipped the switch to action,you most likely will not.

Visualiztion is a tool to perfect an action ,not take the place of performing the action.

If mental visualization ,were all that were needed or enough to get us to be able to do something and or cause us to flip the switch,then all those who do GAMING would be Stealthy military possibilities and or UFC capable street fighters.
Yet most who play these games cannot even pass the basic physical to pass the Military entrance exam.
I do not fancy their chances in a real encounter on the street.

Is the mind a powerful tool ?
Yes
Can the mind and visualiztion create a STATE  from which we function ,for good or bad ?
Yes (proven in Robbins seminars,proven in acting classes)
It must be coupled with performance to allow physical responses to happen.

Again Visualization is a tool to Help performance,not replace actual performance.

My opinion

Great discussion
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2010, 10:37:12 AM »

JimH-yes good discussion-to continue-i was a little confused about  the statement concerning students of "gamming" not being able to pass the physical exam for the military have to disagree on that one-the students i see who come for training in muy tai,kick boxing,judo,and my street self defense for the most part are healthy-some out of shape yes but most ok to pass the initial test you mentioned.

 I have also heard that some police department trainers now take a new recent grad  and ask them questions like -OK you are on patrol and see_________________-what do you do? The new rookie might never been in a fight or altercation as of this -
what do ytou think JimH??

WW
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2010, 10:57:38 AM »

Hi Jim

I absolutely agree, but do feel that the reality of a conflict can be passed down through progressive training by people who have experienced it in order to better prepare someone for combat.  Of course, nothing is like the real thing, but as they say, "Fortune favours the prepared."  Visualisation is just one small piece of the puzzle.

Joe
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2010, 11:01:28 AM »

"Gaming" probably refers to people sitting around playing video games, though in the past it referred to people playing role-playing games like D&D.

Visualization used in mental rehersal for learning or perfecting skills isn't just daydreaming.  It is actually work, and in some ways performing 100 perfect visualizations of a technique is more difficult than just doing 100 physical reps.  It is not something for lazy people.

For those who do not already know the skill to be learned, visualization will help in learning it, but physical practice is needed to condition the body to use what it learned.  For example, if someone uses visualization to learn martial arts techniques, and uses it properly, but does not have the flexibility nor fitness to perform the skill, it won't do them much good.
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Hock

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2010, 11:27:32 AM »

...or thinks a lot about swimming and then drowns in a pool in the first 30 seconds.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2010, 11:54:13 AM »

blub blub blub-gone under---ww
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2010, 12:09:28 PM »

Gaming/Gamers are people who sit and play video games ,for my purpose I will use ones that play UFC,any Martial arts,or HALO and any such military game.

Recent US military stats say that 75 percent of US military Entry Aged Men and Woman CAN NOT Pass the physical for entry into the Military.

When we say recent Grads in regards to Police are we speaking High school or college Grads or Police academy Grads ?

If the question is being asked of untrained persons then it is a question used to see how they will react.
Do they report back and or call for back up or do they go forward.

If the question is to a new recruit grad it is to see if ,now that he/she is on patrol,does he/she remember what they were taught to do in certain situations.

This line of questions does not have to have anything to do with having had actual encounters,nor does it require one to visualize the scenario,ponder it,run various inputs and out comes and provide an answer,it can just be on the theory of the education to that point.
Many times an Old Timer on the job will say:
What were you taught to do for this?
Then after an answer is given they say ,that is the text book way,out here we do This.
Experience dictates over theroy if you want to stay alive.

Joe,
I agree a trainer with experience/s can and will pass on REALISTIC Knowledge and Application.(as in my last point above)
More through the way the scenarios are set up and the way the attackers attack and victims respond.
Again visualiztion is a useful tool,just not a stand alone tool in regards to physical training of any sort,be that Self Defense,sports application,driving or shooting as examples.

If we look at the military as an example.
They train in as close to realistic application as possible for the situation they will be encountering.
They do dry drills with mock ups,they do walk throughs of events such as house clearing,(those are forms of visualization),more so than siting in a chair imagining training.
Then the Dry runs,the visualization is removed and then actual weapons firing is employed ,be it with sims or live .Progression is made at each step towards the physical and the desired outcome.

I have met and posted with many who claim that by watching video and or video clips of training  and or blood and guts that they are creating neuro pathways from visual to subconscious,to even muscle memory,and or desensitizing themselves to the blood and guts which may be an outcome.

Sitting in a chair watching a screen and videos does not create Pathways and or desenstize anyone from anything .
If so ,again,people who sit and play video Games all day would be stone hard core killers and most are FAR FROM THAT,lol.
Grab a stone cold Gamer by the throat and see if the video response of pressing the button happens,lol.
What subconscious  training and or muscle memory is obtained from the Hours and hours of PLAYING,which is also Visualization with an active,yet non pertinent muscle (Hand and thumb) memory?

In physical activity Visualization helps/enhances the Physical activity,but one cannot have Visualization alone and expect a Great outcome in regard to the physical requirement.

My opinion

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2010, 12:24:11 PM »

All agreed.

Joe
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2010, 12:48:17 PM »

agree also-as for watching vidios on a technique-this one especially-one has to go to the mat and try it-otherwise waste of time-ww
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2010, 12:57:01 PM »

There was a study done a few years ago, it wired up people to sensors and had them watch a football game (these people were chosen because they did not have any experience playing football) Thier brain activity was normal, they then wired up people who had played football and were into thesport in a large way. Certain "pathways" fired off like no ones business. The general thought process behind the study and that if you have some basic knowledge of the thing you are observng, then some part of the brain thinks its ACTUALLY doing the thing you are observing. The study went on about the training implications behind this study. ill do my darndest to find the link.
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Hock

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2010, 01:20:36 PM »

IIRC it comes from that mental rehersal experiment where students were divided into 3 groups, one shot baskets, one visualized shooting baskets, and the other did nothing.

Benjamin, before this gets buried too far...what is this deal now? IIRC?

Hock

JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2010, 01:39:00 PM »

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