Hock's Blog

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page



Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

New Links

Knife Book

Impact Weapons Book

First Contact

Critical Contact

Footwork Book

Combat Kicks DVD

Facebook-CQC

Facebook-Hock

Hock's Author Pg

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 22, 2012, 10:22:37 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook  (Read 2540 times)

Brian S

  • Guest
Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« on: February 25, 2010, 04:30:18 AM »

GRAFENWÖHR, Germany — Confronted by a recent survey that shows Soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq are fighting for their lives in hand-to-hand combat with insurgents, U.S. Army officials are revamping their basic combatives training to better equip American forces to defend themselves.

According to the Army’s Combatives Level I handbook, surveys of hundreds of Soldiers who have engaged in hand-to-hand combat during the two wars show that every encounter has involved striking and grappling: core elements of the Army Combatives program.

“Around 30 percent of the fights have ended with gun shots,” the handbook states. “Fighting in an environment where everyone is armed means that very frequently the fight is over who controls the weapons.”

Details of the new instruction have yet to be disseminated by the U.S. Army Combatives School at Fort Benning, Ga., but they are expected by the end of the month, said Staff Sgt. Michael Lopez, 36, of San Antonio, a Level III Combatives instructor at the 7th Army Noncommissioned Officer Academy in Grafenwöhr.

More than 50,000 Soldiers have completed the Army Combatives Level I course since its inception in 2002, according to an Army release. The training is divided into four levels.

Until now, Level I and II Combatives training focused on ground fighting. But the new Level I and II training will include punching, kicking and grappling by Soldiers in “full battle rattle,” Lopez said.

“They’re trying to incorporate more stand-up, more full-gear fighting in Level I and Level II,” he said. “Weapons fighting is becoming more important [in the early stages of Combatives training].”

The changes in the program came about after the Army interviewed more than 900 Soldiers who saw hand-to-hand combat in Iraq or Afghanistan, according to an Army news release.

Soldiers most often enter small houses and rooms during combat operations, so the Army wants to take the ground-grappling principles taught in Combatives and emphasize them from a standing position, Matt Larsen, director of the Army Combatives School at Fort Benning, said in the release.

Additionally, thousands of insurgents or suspected insurgents have been detained in Iraq or Afghanistan by Soldiers who must often resort to physical force at close quarters.

Hand-to-hand combat is more important now than it was a few years ago, Lopez said.

“Soldiers are going out there to capture high-value targets,” he said. “Any time you have to go through a search of a house and there are multiple occupants and somebody becomes noncompliant, you have to use nonlethal means to subdue them.”

Many of the Soldiers at a recent Level I Combatives class in Grafenwöhr had grappled with insurgents in Iraq.

Spc. Mark Jackson, 23, of the 172nd Infantry Brigade, recalled an incident in which he chased an insurgent through the streets of Mosul, Iraq.

“He took off around a corner and ran into a building,” the Marion, Ind., native said. “Me and my squad leader ran in after him, tackled him and applied various chokes just to hold him down until we could restrain him with zip ties.”

Jackson said he didn’t have Combatives training back then, but he did practice boxing and kick boxing at school.

“I’d feel a lot more comfortable being in close quarters now (after completing the Level I training),” he said.

First Lt. Kathrin Mohr, 23, of Tampa, Fla., said she’d never been in a fight or been hit until she attended a “clinch drill” on the last day of the Level I course in Grafenwöhr.

Mohr, who is preparing to deploy with the 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment to southern Afghanistan this summer, was the only female among the 20 some Soldiers who attempted clinch holds against four “strikers” from the Level II class at the NCO Academy.

Surrounded by cheering classmates as she stepped into the center of a padded gym, she rushed forward as a striker in boxing gloves pummeled her about the face and body. After several minutes of pain, she finally got her opponent in a clinch, receiving a thumbs up from Lopez and applause from the audience.

“I was nervous about getting hit,” she said afterward. “I didn’t know how much it was going to hurt. I got a good punch the first time in, and it was game on from there.”

Lopez said the change in focus of the Combatives program is also a reflection of the directive from Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, to reduce the use of lethal force in Afghanistan.

“They want Soldiers to be more cognizant of how and where to deploy their weapons systems,” he said.


©
Logged

Bryan

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
    • Bullshito
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2010, 05:51:39 AM »

  Brian S. aka BS, Thanks for reading my website but you could at least acknowledge that's where you got the info. Its not like you would be reading the "Stars and Stripes" since your busy on your little freebie forum Self Inflation Dot Com.




Original Article Reprinted From Stars And Stripes, Written By Seth Robson

http://mixedmilitarycombatives.net/

Brian S

  • Guest
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2010, 07:28:03 AM »

Someone on a forum I help run posted this link

http://www.military.com/news/article/army-revising-its-combatives-handbook.html?ESRC=eb.nl

Is this your site?

Here is the thread

http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/self-protection-practical-martial-arts-f1/us-army-decides-to-change-t7702.htm#82440

Please let me be clear.  I would never knowingly visit anything that you produced, other than incidentally on a forum you infect. 
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5399
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2010, 09:12:37 AM »

Bryan- good morning- just for your info my school is located with the chief instructor of army combatives for Ft campbell -he has received the latest changes to army combatives program aso ill be up to date if you need any info-
i am not here to say anything about the value of the program but another good friend of mine fro 5th grp SF said that weither you like the program or not it is better than what was before and getting better- he said remember the army is hugh and to get every one on the same track takes awhile-
The owner of the school has over 64 fghts in the octagon-plus trained in tailand-
the 5th grp guy was a top judo man and also made a night jump into combat from 500 feet-plus many hours of training and combat in iraq-he just started a security company
and working with youth who have been in trouble-both good guys
contact me if u have any questions ill ask for u- WW
Logged

Joe Hubbard

  • London, England
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Transforming the Esoteric with the Exoteric!
    • www.functionalfighting.com
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2010, 09:27:58 AM »

It's called syndicated journalism.

Joe
Logged
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side"

Hunter S. Thompson

www.joehubbardstreetsurvival.com

Visit My Blog: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 7932
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010, 09:31:04 AM »

And of course my feeling are hurt because...all that news was here first last November, 2009 and...and...

 :-[   Nobody cares. Nobody notices.  :'(


http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,5588.0.html

Hock

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5399
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010, 11:23:22 AM »

Come on Hock- we all care-you can put your head on our shoulders if you want to.

WW
Logged

Brian S

  • Guest
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010, 06:05:17 PM »

And of course my feeling are hurt because...all that news was here first last November, 2009 and...and...

 :-[   Nobody cares. Nobody notices.  :'(


http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,5588.0.html

Hock

Awwwww.  We DO care Hock..... We DO!

But we just didn't notice......  ;)

Anyways.... oh Bryan?  Bryan?  I'm waiting for your apology Bryan?

 ;D
Logged

VicMackey

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 388
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010, 08:19:50 PM »

It's gotten to the point where Army Combatives have relied more on grappling and submissions. That's fine and dandy to have those skills too but they should still rely on Keep It Simple Striking standing up using down and dirty combatives. And discarding bayonet training from their training plan is doing their soldiers an injustice. Again, there are still some situations which calls for use of a bayonet. And, I know this is a personal opinion. But the US Marines are doing a much better job of developing their combatives which balances standup skills, improvised weapons, gun retention, baton training, and grappling/submissions into an effective package used in their MCMAP program. Again, MCMAP is not just confined to just the US Marines, but also to the US Navy Combat Corpsmen and US Navy Air Traffic Controllers that are assigned to guard air strips.
Logged
"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

Brian S

  • Guest
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2010, 07:04:51 AM »

Guys.  Is there a fault on the forum?

Bryan has been back on, posting on other sections..... but he hasn't withdrawn his wild allegation about me plaguarising his site, nor has he issued an apology.

Must be a technical fault......
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 5399
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 07:23:33 AM »

Vic and othrs-back to the subject -army combatatives-unfortunatley the program is designed to hold the opponent more than dispatch him from the scene so there will be one less enemy to contend with-sense I am in the same school with the army combatative guys I have the opportunity to see the tactics first hand and observe how to overcome a position by inserting a claw/smash/elbow/forearm to throat etc etc-
now some of these guys are tremendous rollers-it would be hard to beat them in a "ring type setting-very hard-the problem lies in that they are not taught the mentality to
"kill" as are other branches as mentioned =plus many countries in the world instruct in
"killing-quickly- one that comes to mind is Napal Gurkas-
I talk a lot with the 5th group guys and former SF people-many agree-get it down and dirty quickly -
whitewolf (elb) "speed of light"
Logged

JimH

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2550
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 12:27:20 PM »

As I wrote on this discussion when Hock posted it:
The Soldiers who have been confronting the enemy on the gattlefield and in House to House  engagements have been calling for a change ,away from the Ground game of sport.
The reply ,from Matt Larson,we will now include the stand up portion of UFC fights as part of the NEW training.

So now they will have the start phase of the UFC bouts,which mean that soldiers can kick at distance,knee,and strike,BEFORE THEY GO TO THE GROUND.
LOL
Still only allowing the Targets as set by the rules opf the sport of UFC.
What about teaching Edge of Hand,Palm Heel strikes ,(that drive the close up opponent back), techniques to the face,throat ,strikes to finish off an opponent who is in your face.
No ,we keep the rules of the UFC in place.
(what BS)

The Ground Game still stays though.
Gotta keep that in there.

WOW,Now they will do more training in BDU's and GEAR.
Gee so good of them to realize there is a difference in doing GBJJ on the Ground in BDU's wearing wrestling shoes  versus doing it with FULL COMBAT GEAR ON.

It only took 7 Years to figure it out.

How long more to figure out the Battle is won by ELIMINATING the enemy,not holding him down in a submission hold.
 
And don't forget,now that we see soldiers having more CLOSE in encounters,let's get rid of the Bayonet training.
LOL
Logged

Bryan

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
    • Bullshito
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2010, 02:40:24 PM »

As I wrote on this discussion when Hock posted it:
The Soldiers who have been confronting the enemy on the gattlefield and in House to House  engagements have been calling for a change ,away from the Ground game of sport.
The reply ,from Matt Larson,we will now include the stand up portion of UFC fights as part of the NEW training.

So now they will have the start phase of the UFC bouts,which mean that soldiers can kick at distance,knee,and strike,BEFORE THEY GO TO THE GROUND.
LOL
Still only allowing the Targets as set by the rules opf the sport of UFC.
What about teaching Edge of Hand,Palm Heel strikes ,(that drive the close up opponent back), techniques to the face,throat ,strikes to finish off an opponent who is in your face.
No ,we keep the rules of the UFC in place.
(what BS)

The Ground Game still stays though.
Gotta keep that in there.

WOW,Now they will do more training in BDU's and GEAR.
Gee so good of them to realize there is a difference in doing GBJJ on the Ground in BDU's wearing wrestling shoes  versus doing it with FULL COMBAT GEAR ON.

It only took 7 Years to figure it out.

How long more to figure out the Battle is won by ELIMINATING the enemy,not holding him down in a submission hold.
 
And don't forget,now that we see soldiers having more CLOSE in encounters,let's get rid of the Bayonet training.
LOL

 Per the usual, your commentary is coming from somewhere off another planet. You constantly try to speak for Matt Larson but you don't have a clue to what is going on.

He has been an advocate of striking and weapons from day one. The complication being he was Active Army in a position of leadership and had to sell a program Army Wide to Brass that don't like to buy Hand To Hand, a very hard and time-consuming sell.

JimH

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2550
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2010, 04:32:54 PM »

Here is what LARSEN said in the article:

"Soldiers most often enter small houses and rooms during combat operations, so the Army wants to take the ground-grappling principles taught in combatives and emphasize them from a standing position, Larsen said."

"Knee strikes, clinch drills, fighting with weapons and combat equipment, and pushing terror suspects against the wall are among the upper-echelon combatives techniques Soldiers will now be exposed to at lower unit levels, Larsen said."

"He said more than 57,000 troops have graduated from the Army Combatives School since its inception in 2002 - including 50,374 (Level 1), 5,255 (Level 2), 1,408 (Level 3) and 564 (Level 4)."

So if we look at what LARSEN said in this article,not including the past articles we find:

That since 2002 the army Combatives school has Graduated 57,000
Of that 57,000 ,55,629 are Level 1 and 2 ONLY
Level 1 and 2 emphasizes GROUND only.
So tell us how much he has pushed stand up combatives ?

They will NOW Teach Combatives from the stand up,the same way as the entry from distance in the UFC.
Wow the soldiers have only been telling the stories and asking for stand up for 7 years.
glad the man in charge was listening to the needs of the troops in combat over trying to get GBJJ army wide.

Knee strikes,work in the clinch and pushing the enemy against the wall will now be taught.
Well look at the stories of how the men in the field dealt with close up confrontations in home searches and we will see this is what they did,and this is what they asked for to be taught since 2003.

Larsen kept a tight control on the ADVANCED materials.
Nice way to keep a job,even into retirement.
Sooner or Later someone had to listen to the needs of the front line troops and low and behold Larsen has the answer,the other aspect of UFC ,stand up,lol.

Hey but my comments are from another planet.
LOL


Logged

JimH

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2550
Re: Army Revising it's Combatives Handbook
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2010, 05:34:20 PM »

This says it all:

Matt Larsen
Registered User   
 
Matt Larsen
1. The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
2. The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun. 


Sorry to me ,(and to others interested in WINNING in a H2H situation against a DETERMINED Enemy), Number TWO on Matt's list above IS NOT What Combatives is About.
But
That is why it is being CHANGED.
(or given the appearance of changing)

Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3
 

Download