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Author Topic: That's Gotta Hurt!  (Read 4209 times)

redcap

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That's Gotta Hurt!
« on: March 02, 2010, 06:20:54 PM »

When I was paid to carry a firearm for a living we were instructed in the use of the 9mm Browning Hi-Power, our standard sidearm at the time and still is I think but don't quote me, I'd have to ask a mate still in the job. One instructor was an American who had served in the US Army, then the Rhodesian Army and then joined ours (Australia). He had a thing about boot polish and brasso methinks. Anyway he was superb and I have always believed when it comes to handguns the Americans would have to be the world's leading proponents going back to Wild Bill Hickock et al.

So I have a question of our gun fighters: What is it with this gun on the side gangsta thing you see in the movies and the crime clip videos of 7/11s being held up etc. Forgive my ignorance and being somewhat behind the times as I haven't fired a handgun for over five years but I would think that sideways position would be rubbish in a real gun battle.

Surely the recoil would affect second and third round placement, risk wrist damage and even the sighting of the weapon using a both eyes open instinctive style would be skew whiff somewhat? I concede capping someone's ass or whatever the target is at point blank range makes most grips moot but at a distance of 7-10 feet or more I figure the first round would most likely miss most of the time.

Enlighten me, please.
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Canuk

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 06:25:55 PM »

It looks cool, thats it
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VicMackey

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 07:41:18 PM »

"Da gangsta" way of holding a sidearm makes anyone look like an amateur. It may look cool in the movies to some ignorant audiences but it is percieved as unprofessional to professional gunmen. Personally never done it, and never cared about it. Whoever came up with it is a very stupid idea and has cost a lot of innocent lives in the process during a drive-by or walk by shooting.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 08:18:03 PM by VicMackey »
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
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"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

VicMackey

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 08:22:20 PM »

However, I'll admit that I do cant my gun slightly to avoid the slide of my semiautomatic pistol from hitting the wall, which is recommended if I have to turn to a wall corner to the right. Again, I do not go too close to the corner to avoid a disarm.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

redcap

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 03:31:18 AM »

We practised a lot of shooting from the hip, tucked in tight with the whole body and both eyes turning inline with the gun. The weak hand was up and outstretched as required, good for feeling in the dark, fending off and creating some space, as well as being high enough up from the gun's line of fire to avoid taking a finger off. We never did the stiff armed thing you see on tv, I mean that would have to get tiring, surely? Not to mention what you pointed out, the ease of being disarmed poking in doorways and around corners.

We were also taught to not hug walls, something a Brit exchange NCO taught us derived on experience gleaned in N.I. Something about bullets having a habit of following along walls or something. It was a quarter of a century ago so forgive me if I'm getting this arse about.

When it came to searching inside buildings, hallways and such we had to get prone to look around corners, and do it a foot or two off the wall, not hugging it tightly. If paired, one would stay prone while the other moved down the hall to the next turn or doorway. He then went prone and #1 moved up. The thinking being less chance of shooting his mate in the back if he were firing up or along the floor, at worst he takes his mate's ankle out. Shit happens as they say.

Room entry was similar with #1 prone looking in from the hinge side to offer the widest view, #2 booting in at the lock then stepping back out of line of the door. Most shots would come out at hip height or above and to the middle of the doorway. Made sense to us at the time. We also liked to mousehole a side wall but that isn't always practical even in a MOUT situation.
Comments?
Redcap
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whitewolf

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 06:32:52 AM »

Althogh I have not carried a pistol in a few years here are some thoughts
 first I think the hlding of a wpn  in the Gangsta way is more of a macho way to
show that the shooter is in charge so to speak-in other words he is a street guy.

NRA has a great tv show where they show quik draw and how to hold a wpn-great shows full of good solid advice on the proper way to fire against a opponent in a hurry-

I have seen a few vidios where the shooter turns the wpn on the side to pull the slide back and put a round in the chamber-then tunrs the wrist back to fire- any comments on the value of that?

WW
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JimH

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 09:29:01 AM »

The gangsta position came about due to the fact that the victim was usually hit with the pistol first to gain attention and cooperation
Then
The raising of the pistol to the HEAD with  an elbow up and out,pistol grip to the side,which  took the arm out of center line and prevented the victim from thinking about trying to move or grab the weapon from the shooter.
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whitewolf

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 11:46:22 AM »

JimH-where did you hear that-? I think as i stated it is just a "street" show of force myself-WW
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JimH

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2010, 02:44:14 PM »

WW,
All weapons not used directly for injury or death of the victim,but which are shown to the Victim are for intimidation.

I know ,supposed Gangstas,people who grew up in places like Harlem,Bed Stuy, Newark,Phili and other supposed bad areas and many train in Martial arts to use it as a way to stay alive or get out and they tell of how and why things are done.

When an attacker/gangsta has a pistol for instance they run up on the Victim and strike them one  OR MORE times in the head to get their attention,instill immediate dominance ,instill fear and gain compliance.They do not stand at distance in a proper shooting stance as they are not interested in shooting the victim they are interested in using overwhelming force and fear to get what they want.They want to gain attention,put the pistol to the victims head and they get in close,face to face to snarl,spit and make the demand,so the pistol is up and pressed to the side of the victims head,elbow up,hand turned ,pistol grip turned.

The Intimidation method became a way of firing on the street but that was not the intent of the gangsta position of the weapon.Firing like that is not for accuracy but to lay down rounds and who ever gets hit gets hit.This is why in many gang shootings more bystanders get hit  than the members of the other gangs.

If we think back this method of firing has been around since Firearms have been around.
Rifles were fired in WWI-WWII-Korea-Vietnam and even today in Iraq and Afghanistan in this manner as the shooter is behind cover,knows roughly where the enemy is ,they raise their weapons over the cover,(which is rifle turned side ways),or the weapon is turned around a corner ,held side ways and they fire to put rounds down range at the enemy.

Side ways firing is not for accuracy just to throw rounds towards the enemy.
Side ways hold at very close range is for intimidation,elbow up and weapon high to make trying a disarm or grab of the weapon and or weapon bearing limb harder.
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Canuk

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2010, 03:42:36 PM »

Really? you are saying that gang bangers orginally had a tactical approach to what is now a common thing? The mob have been around for awhile, they also use weapons for intimadation and I have never seen or heard of them pulling "gansta" style, up here anyways
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whitewolf

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 04:20:05 PM »

Sorry JimH i am with Canuck on this- i was brought up in Newark area-when a pistol was used never heard of threars by tipping the weapond sidways-oh well lets carry on WW
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VicMackey

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 07:28:29 PM »

Guys, don't get fooled. Not every gang member uses the gangsta stance. Some have had prior proper gun training or former military training. Some know how to cut the pie or do a dynamic entry. And those are the ones we gotta be more aware of.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

Canuk

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2010, 08:13:45 PM »

agreed, we have seen an increase in MS 13 gang activity (not the wannabes either) these guys have training, talent, motivation and short fuses. Up here we listerned and listerned hard when the FBI told us to watch these guys. We hit them hard on a regular bases.
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VicMackey

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2010, 08:47:05 PM »

You have MS-13 in Canada too? Wow. If so, they are not just confined to the US and South and Central America anymore. Some of their older members have had prior experience in the 80s Salvadoran conflict, whether in the military, leftist guerrilla units. or paramilitary right-wing death squads, such as Sombra Negra (Black Lightning). And they will not hesitate to put a gun to your head and then blow your brains out. They have seen so much death and it is no longer a big deal to them. They even kill or beat you down just for kicks or fun in order to instill a fearsome reputation.  They are like a plague. I hope you guys have CCW someday to keep these minions in check. An armed population is the best deterrent against them. Again, it's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 08:53:23 PM by VicMackey »
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

Canuk

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2010, 09:41:43 PM »

They are trying hard to further establish themselves in the big cities, we are keeping a very, very close eye on them based on the US experience. We are very proactive in terms of intell gathering and raids.

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redcap

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 12:47:22 AM »

I tend to agree with JimH's explanation for the gangsta grip. I don't think it was a conscious tactical development as much as an evolutionary process. The intimidation, pistol whipping, in your face theses makes sense to me. Anyone who interpreted JimH's post as suggesting they developed a system etc I think misread his post.

I was chatting with a mate today (who would know) and he said the Russian bodyguards include the use of a sideways grip for their return fire with the .22's many carry. Their thinking is that shooting rarely occurs further away than 5m (15ft) and the .22 can lay down a lot of fire without a lot of recoil and second round misses, not to mention being much easier to carry and conceal the smaller gun.

I know you Amurricuns lurve your large calibre pistols but I can see their point. As part of a team returning fire the .22 can be accurate and effective. Five rounds in the heart will do it for most, or five in the throat and face if they suspect body armour is worn. Other team members will have AK variants or Czech Skorpion machine pistols so the close in team can carry .22s and be comfortable while they protect the principle.

MS13 are hard core for sure and fortunately we don't have them here. Yet.
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Hock

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 01:00:59 PM »

A handgun, slightly...somewhat...turned inward from a perfect vertical position is favored by many pros because the human hand turns slightly inward when raised. In the same way we see MA people talk about the vertical fist versus the 45 degree angle fist. This SLIGHT turn favors anatomy and movement. Slight. Not horizontal or "flat."

The complete turned gangsta thing? Is very Hollywood and life imitates art, imitates life...etc. It seeps into police work and into thugs.

A few experts a few years back determined that a sideways or horizontal grip interferes with marksmanship, especially at increasing and greater distances. Even the slightly canted grip does not do as well in distances than a vertical pistol.

Whether slightly turned-in or vertical, either grip will kill you fast.

When searching in hot situations, when my body was low, say like running up to a car with a suspect behind it. I have found myself holding the gun up high and you must turn your hand somewhat.

Also a shooter has to worry about suppling the handgun with enough stability to allow the slide to kick out a shell and cycle a new round into the chamber. If the gun is held too funky and too high, this may cause a cycle problem.  

Hock
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 05:51:34 PM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 04:50:42 PM »

My point,as Redcap explained,was that the grip was first a way to intimidate at close range ,while protecting the weapon bearing limb.

Youngsters in these areas seeing the  method of holding the weapon during robberies took it one step further to shooting in that position.

The method was born from armed robberies,to movies,not the movies to the streets.

"Journalists and gun experts point to the 1993 Hughes brothers film Menace II Society, which depicts the side grip in its opening scene, as the movie that popularized the style. Although the directors claim to have witnessed a side grip robbery in Detroit in 1987."

"The Hughes brothers didn't invent the grip, though. In 1961's One-Eyed Jacks, Marlon Brando used it, as did Eli Wallach in 1966's The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly."


If the side ways hold was used in the movies of the 1960's,how do we equate that it has to be the Movies of the 1990's to poularize it ?

If we look at the trick shooters of the 1890's we see unorthodox shooting grips and methods, with accuracy.
Again sideways turning of the weapon when shooting rifles and pistols is not new and not due to the movies.

I explained to WW how I came to my reasoning for my points ,based on seeing and speaking to those who live in neighborhoods with LOADS of Wanna Bee Gangstas and or people who were /are living what they call the Gangsta life.

Mine is just A reasoned OPINION.
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redcap

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 07:15:23 PM »

I can see Hock's point about the natural fall of the hand and wrist being slightly turned inwards. Once you go past that angle the elbow starts to rise or the pecs tighten up but until then, it is a very natural position.

Reading that made me remember back 25 years to a range day when we were shown 'the Israeli Draw' as the instructor called it. As you draw the 9mm Browning (a single action pistol) you punch the gun through the left hand to rack the slide back and chamber a round. Without breaking the momentum you continue punching through and bring the gun up to a locked arm position and lo! The gun was usually at a slight turned in angle, at least for the first round.

Various weak hand positions were tried, including bracing the gun arm at the bicep, the forearm in front of the elbow crease and the wrist, as well as in front of the fist. This was dictated mostly by the punch to rack and how the weak hand came up, sometimes you shot faster without waiting for the weak hand to come up into a supporting position.

One drill was to draw, punch and rack then shoot as soon as the slide hit home and then drop the mag with a thumb to the mag release, catch it in the weak hand and fire off the round in the chamber. Then you replaced the mag and holstered the weapon ready to draw again. Fine for draw practise but some of us wondered if under stress you would do that if you trained it often enough.

The catalyst for this was a report about a US cop killed in a gun fight while policing up his brass... as he had been taught to do on the range. Not sure if that was a true story but it got across the message: how you train is how you fight. Comments?
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

VicMackey

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 08:40:46 PM »

The officers getting killed as a result of policing brass is an unfortunate but true story. Like they say, you fight like you train. I never stick to what the Navy has shown me when it comes to firearms qualifications for armed watches or for law enforcement. Some of the stuff they use are very questionable at best. That is why I always seek training that is outside the box and always keep an open mind. And what you deem useful is up to you and you discard the garbage.  As a matter of fact, I don't even go to the indoor ranges anymore where you can only shoot standing. and if the range don't allow shooting CQC at live fire, practice it at home using either airsoft replica gun same as your pistol or dryfire your carry pistol using snapcaps and laser. Don't limit yourself. Limitation can kill you.
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"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."
"A citizen is armed and free while a subject is disarmed and under control."
"An armed society is a polite society."
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"-Sun Tzu
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"-Mike Tyson

redcap

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 03:23:50 AM »

Airsoft, snapcaps? You guys are spoilt. We have mattock handles and a will to not become Talofa'aa's bikini model in Cell 5. So we tend to figure out ways to avoid the people with guns who shouldn't have them. They are breaking the law! We just sort out the ones with the mates and kitchen knives.

Do you have mattocks in the USA? It is like a pick on one end and a hoe type digger on the other. The handle is an awesome bit of confidence booster when you have to stand your ground.
Redcap

PS Useless against a gun of course, unless he is looking the other way when you sneak up.
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

whitewolf

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2010, 02:20:45 PM »

Red-make sure you get pick and the hoe end sharpened-and take their hand off ;D
ww
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redcap

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2010, 07:48:07 AM »

Jeez Whitewolf, I'm not that bloody big! I can swing the mattock handle but not with the metal bit on the end. I keep that for the veggie patch. Besides, that might get someone hurt! Can't have that, poor disadvantaged types!
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

whitewolf

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Re: That's Gotta Hurt!
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2010, 07:53:27 AM »

OK Red- did not know that it was so big-oh well- stay safe  WW
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