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Author Topic: When the armour isn't there  (Read 4113 times)

redcap

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When the armour isn't there
« on: March 09, 2010, 09:48:43 PM »

Have a look at this clip from Pat O'Malley's web site on http://www.rapidarnis.com/The_Black_Eagle_Society.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTSNqcKBTE Those strikes are fast and hard and the fight is over pretty quickly.

and then this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzNnxbi9DDc&NR=1 note the stick getting used in the grappling phase at the end.

Then watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjWyT6o8zg8

The padded style (Doce Pares in this case) fight has both fighters doing their own thing, oblivious to anything the other is doing as it doesn't really hurt. They stand there and wail away and if you fight Doce Pares style in WEKAF, you win. If you try to fight otherwise, the judges score against you because it is a style mainly promoted by DP. Over the years the style of competition has influenced the rest of the curriculum and vice versa. How you train is how you fight so if you train to enhance a competition result then you are more likely to fight that way. Note how TKD has lost a lot of it's lethality as it has become an Olympic Sport.

If you surf the clips you will find others showing the Doce Pares style and note how the attacker conveniently freezes so the defender can flow through half a dozen techniques.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZF3u6HFKxw&NR=1
All very pretty but very unrealistic as a real attacker would not freeze, would he? I have several friends who are high up in DP and so on but I disagree with this development in their training regimen. Comments?
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

whitewolf

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 08:22:19 AM »

Agree-opponent will not freeze in a real altercation.
Are they freezing to learn the movemt?
Dont know. 

ww
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JimH

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 02:05:22 PM »

The exchange.
The allowing the opponent to use the stick,step back and you go concept is sport.
Un realistic to the point of the stick is to be used to strike the Head,strike the legs,strike the weapon bearing limb,strike the hand,all in an attmept to enter.

If you were unarmed and faced an attacker with a stick,how would you fight that fight ?
Well the manner of fighting unarmed is the same approach if you were armed with a stick.
Limit the hits as you close the gap.

The protective equipment in stick sparring,as the equipment in sport sparring/fighting,lends one to not act in a realistic fashion to contact,to not feel pain,and to continue on in an unrealistic fashion.

They had some clips out on the net a couple of years ago about these guys who did challenge fights in the park,unarmed and various impact weapons ,for real.
One older guy who said he was an ex con ,was going to fight a young guy ,both started with sticks.
The Older guy gets disarmed,charges in,gets hit once and takes the kid down and bites a piece of his cheek off.
Nice reality fighting with various weapons.
I could not find the clips though,sorry.
Shows the difference of actual impact and fighting trends as compared to the dilusion of fighting on when padded  up.
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whitewolf

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 03:32:36 PM »

good post jimH- few years ago a friend of mine in recon went out to the bars outsisde camp geiger-got in a fight with another jarhead who in the struggle bit half of chucks
ear off-reality in a heart beat- WW
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JimH

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 06:05:03 PM »

From the Human Weapon Escrima
Part 1 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mNnXfwHrzU&feature=related

Part 5 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXkYHK-Vano&feature=related

This shows Doce Pares going at it without Padding.
With No Padding we see a Very different attitude in the fighters and no one just standing there being hit ,Taking the hits,and then replying as if they were not struck.

The padding allows the fighters to Hit with more realistic power and targeting,
But
The padding also gives a false sense of ability in taking a hit/s and being able to respond.
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Mesmeriser

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 08:09:05 PM »

man thanks alot for this, this explains everything that constantly bugs me about eskrima.
Where half my posts here probably have been about in some way or form.

i was dumb enough to think all eskrima is the same eskrima i was told there werent many differences.
I do doce paris and im constantly every class annoyed at the dumbass ways we train. we never strike head etc we do like you say these half a dozen strikes over the stomach and stuff that just makes no sense, we make almost no use of the pummel and straight strikes when there very logical even though i do them because im stubborn.

i constantly bring up the concept of you fight the way you train with my teacher
he keeps making us do dumb attacks but sometimes he says'' in real life you will never do it like this you'd probably be better off doing something like this n this'' and those are complete different things!  then why the hell dont we train that!


it all made sense when i saw what these guys championships actually look like, theyre padded up to death! they arent fighting  their in there own world seeing how much hits they can can get in while almost not moving because they cant feel a damn thing, its almost like their doing a monologue, theres almost no interaction between what fighter x does and y's reaction.  No wonder the curriculum and the way we train is so fucked, its designed for that full padded hell i just saw.


Quote
If you surf the clips you will find others showing the Doce Pares style and note how the attacker conveniently freezes so the defender can flow through half a dozen techniques.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZF3u6HFKxw&NR=1
All very pretty but very unrealistic as a real attacker would not freeze, would he?

what you said here also annoys me ive seen up to 12 of these cool  snazzy attacks you flow through while your drill partner just freezes and stands there   

I knew i wasnt crazy,

So  do other systems train differently? or have a different curriculum?
we don t have to many  eskrima guys here inholland as far as i know besides frans stroeven and his guys, we have great mma guys though.
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redcap

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 10:49:32 PM »

I train my students very differently. There is nothing we do that can't be used in a fight. We have just a couple of Siniwalli drills and they are used to teach various attributes. We have a Box Drill I borrowed of Richard Bustillo we find fun to do and useful for setting up disarms on the move and a couple of other things but that's it. We used to spar with just helmet and glove every class but it gets too much when you start to get hit as often as you hit the other guy/s (we do train multiple attackers and multiple defenders too).

We don't have all the Espada Y Daga stuff many do which to me is unrealistic as it works well with a stick and knife but against a sword or machete it falls apart when the other bloke hasn't read the script or knows the same drills.

As for that rubbish in the video clip of them fighting in the cockpit... OK, maybe down there near the public market where the Doce Pares HQ sits behind a high gate they use the cockpit for stick matches but you don;t see that anywhere else in the islands on even a once a year basis in my experience.  I say it was staged for the show. The carabao wrestling certainly was. You can hear the Filipinos laughing and wise cracking amongst themselves in the background. My father in law saw that episode on cable and told me if anyone upset his carabao like that he'd show them how he uses a sundang (Cebuano for bolo)!

Like I said, I have some good mates in Doce Pareas but I do think the WEKAF competition has changed the art for the worse in the last decade or so. Keep in mind also that the Canete's are all professionals, accountants, lawyers, engineers etc. They are not street fighters. I once told a couple of them (in the Philippines) about some of the weapons I had been trained to use such as the sumpak pagi (stingray tail), bunal/latigo (whip), higut/lubid (rope) and a few others. They conversed a few moments then wrote me off as one who had been taught by street criminals as these were weapons used by gangs on the streets, not martial artists. True, but then who is more likely to attack you?
Redcap
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Mesmeriser

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010, 01:24:46 PM »

man i'd love to train in a school like yours, i keep driving people crazy at my schoolbecause  im really about  realistic training my motivation for trainnig is first and foremost self defence, thats why i train.. to aquire skills, attributes and mindset, a fast second is fun fun fun,condition ,health   and thennnn comes art. i dont know why else you'd train when your young.
to me that means you train lots of apllication and train that application realistic at least a part of it needs to have dedicated attacks, you train mindset and commitment to attacks, i like drills i think they are very usefull eventhough i havent gotten that many yet, but for crying out loud you dont need 3000 variations on the same thing. i think it just comes down to your focus, if your focus is on selfdefence/apllicable/fighting  the curriculum will shape itself around that and work itself out, its just where i train the motto seems to me more is better and the focus is on artsy and sport duelling.
and i would also train scenario's but i can understand if people wouldnt do that because it isnt rbsd system.

I'd really like to focus on alot of training for a period of time pref in a kind of system like yours, i also want to travel a bit while im still in my twenties. so that'd work out great but i wonder if its even possible to do so, i seen 3-4-5 day training camps for up to 3000$  and thats just  5 days. it might be fulltime training though, i wonder if its even possible to go somewhere and train say 2 hours a day for 5 days a week il probably open up a topic about this later do you happen to know anything about the possibilities in this?

 another guy told me the exact same thing that cockpit fight thing is staged i didnt see it in this movie but ive seen it on other docus on doce paris most likely the same footage, they try to sell it  like these guys are still having ''death matches'' or something i knew that was bs, i had no idea they fought in those padded jokes.
i wonder how did the cannetes  learn eskrima in the first place i tought it was a street art as it was used to kill, weird they'd respond like that
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redcap

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 06:27:41 PM »

Doce Pares was formed as a stick fencing club in the 1920s. Keep in mind to have the time and the money, let alone the inclination, to belong to a club you usually aren't working flat out in the fields as a farmer or a fisherman or labourer all day. Especially not back then. You had to be well enough off to afford the club dues and the equipment and have free time etc. So the class of member was always more middle class than working class in my opinion. Which is not to say the original Canetes didn't have street fights and weren't the target of criminals or rivals.

I think the Canete's have done a great deal of good for FMA in general and the WEKAF organization is getting better as the years pass. Back at the beginning in the first half of the 90s the judging and scoring were so corrupt you could enter a player in at semi final time who wasn't in the elimination rounds and have him tossed about the ring and still win. Then he gets knocked down three times in the first round of the final and still wins! You could stand behind the data entry operators and watch as they adjusted the score cards in ink before entering the data to the computer ensuring 24 out of 26 divisions (from memory) were won by Filipinos, including my Superheavyweight Div (103kg>) by a local who weighed maybe 80kg dripping wet! But of course, this all makes me biased so ignore me.

As for your school, if they don't teach what you want to learn, move. Find a keen friend and train with him. Attend seminars like Hock's and get his stick DVDs, I have them and they are excellent. You can then train by yourselves and run your own school and learn by trial and error. It's how the arts originally started. Don't be so tied to the ritual and structure of a school if what you want is to learn to fight. But if you want what the school is offering, keep it shut and do as you're told and like it.  ;D
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

Mesmeriser

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2010, 08:39:06 PM »

Quote
As for your school, if they don't teach what you want to learn, move. Find a keen friend and train with him. Attend seminars like Hock's and get his stick DVDs, I have them and they are excellent. You can then train by yourselves and run your own school and learn by trial and error. It's how the arts originally started. Don't be so tied to the ritual and structure of a school if what you want is to learn to fight. But if you want what the school is offering, keep it shut and do as you're told and like it.

yeah i guess you have some good points there.
its not like im constantly in my teachers face, i respect him and were on great terms, but i do bring it up and i am the only one. never the less your right. im there willingly.

Ive been thinking about the solo/friend training thing or trying to start a trainingsgroup. im gonna get some dvds when i have the money either way,
Do you think thats a good idea though?
i mean theres alot of basics stuff i can drill and practice with a friend witch is a big plus. im sure theres also basic material dvds so thatl be cool.
But beyond that  wont i need the experience of an experienced teacher otherwiseim  just living a dream i reckon..
its a good suggestion though thanks

ive been also thinking about the moving thing   but that would  have to be outside my country(theres not so much here and i wont move to the otherside of my country for a school thats open 1 hour a week, thats just not practical)
so it will be outside my country witch meanstemporarily thats how i came to the traveling and been researching if there are places where you can train relatively lmany hours in shorter periods of time   like 6 months or something.


still researching the options not much luck though
thanks for the suggestions


 

« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:43:12 PM by Mesmeriser »
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redcap

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 12:05:39 AM »

As I said, you can't go wrong with Hock's Stick series. It is a comprehensive system from A to Z. It's well laid out and simple and logical to follow. Save the shekels and buy it. If you both watch and train (take it in bits and learn the bits) you will get competent enough. There is no substitute for a good instructor right there with you but failing that...

You are getting the basics from your school. The rest is just variations on a theme. Train with as many different people as possible and get a broad church of experience. If you come to Australia you can train with me. But really, how much do you need to know to hit someone with a stick? Pick up a stick and hit people, learn on the job. Make sure they are consenting people!
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour

whitewolf

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2010, 01:25:56 AM »

Red-that was good advice about training-i have two students at one place-one is a
deputy sheriff-we practise with collapsable batons - i have them come at each other -one has a baton and the other is  empty handed. we look at ways to defend from different angles-using hocks clock-i want them to not be thinking "if he comes at this  way ill do this"-so the angles are swiched around to atttack from. I am looking for them to adapt. I also am not looking for power but to get to the  baton arm quickly,
and to get inside the arc while responding. Yes-  reversed the training-bad guy has the baton..
we will be practising with a knife against baton and baton against knife next.
WW

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Professor

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010, 08:25:16 AM »

Doce Pares was formed as a stick fencing club in the 1920s. Keep in mind to have the time and the money, let alone the inclination, to belong to a club you usually aren't working flat out in the fields as a farmer or a fisherman or labourer all day. Especially not back then. You had to be well enough off to afford the club dues and the equipment and have free time etc. So the class of member was always more middle class than working class in my opinion. Which is not to say the original Canetes didn't have street fights and weren't the target of criminals or rivals.

I think the Canete's have done a great deal of good for FMA in general and the WEKAF organization is getting better as the years pass. Back at the beginning in the first half of the 90s the judging and scoring were so corrupt you could enter a player in at semi final time who wasn't in the elimination rounds and have him tossed about the ring and still win. Then he gets knocked down three times in the first round of the final and still wins! You could stand behind the data entry operators and watch as they adjusted the score cards in ink before entering the data to the computer ensuring 24 out of 26 divisions (from memory) were won by Filipinos, including my Superheavyweight Div (103kg>) by a local who weighed maybe 80kg dripping wet! But of course, this all makes me biased so ignore me.

As for your school, if they don't teach what you want to learn, move. Find a keen friend and train with him. Attend seminars like Hock's and get his stick DVDs, I have them and they are excellent. You can then train by yourselves and run your own school and learn by trial and error. It's how the arts originally started. Don't be so tied to the ritual and structure of a school if what you want is to learn to fight. But if you want what the school is offering, keep it shut and do as you're told and like it.  ;D
Redcap

We went away from WEKAF early due to the corruption....wasn't worth train....

then we got into full contact stick fighting.....much more fun.
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Mesmeriser

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010, 06:10:29 PM »

thanks for all the advice  man.
Got some good ideas out of this
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redcap

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Re: When the armour isn't there
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010, 07:37:48 PM »

WW... sounds like you are giving them value for their money, great work. Prof... the corruption was systemic, much like the Philipines itself. We will be there in a week and sadly the power outages (called brownouts as they aren't as bad as a blackout, right?) are rolling across the country in preparation for the election. The electronic balloting system is pretty much tamper proof, so they plan to have blackouts so they will have to revert to the paper ballots and ballot boxes, all of which are far  more manageable. You can't hijack an electronic system like you can a ballot box, nor can you stuff them as well either. They have been warming the massa up for weeks with these brownouts so even the politicians will believe their own BS. I was living there for the 2004 elections and it was messy. This will be worse because GMA is facing the end of her presidency (two terms). Still, my inlaws will get about P400 for their votes again, although last time Mama was ripped off P150 in her vote buy envelope! See, they even cheat their bought voters!

Mesmeriser, that's why we're here.
Redcap
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“No man knows the hour of his ending, nor can he choose the place or the manner of his going. To each it is given to die proudly, to die well, and this is, indeed, the final measure of the man.” Louis L’Amour
 

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