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  • May 23, 2012, 04:42:08 AM
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Author Topic: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...  (Read 1206 times)

Trembula

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Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« on: April 04, 2005, 01:55:46 PM »

A rather delightful article from the Washington Post. One of the tremendous casualties of the cold warriors was the "mission creep" that resulted in the obsession with starched uniforms, spit shined boots, and "grease" uniforms. As noted by General Jones in one of the reasons why the Corps went to their new utilities, the time and effort that was being devoted to uniform appearance was detrimental to the combat orientation that the Marines were supposed to be focussing on. Hence their shift to the wash'n'wear "digicammies" and no-shine boots. As long as the weapons are clean, the uniform relatively intact, and all appropriate protective gear is being worn, I think that problems being detailed with these units in Iraq should be a non-issue. Whenever you look at the pictures or film footage from WW2 and Korea, those soldiers and Marines were definately not worring about how they were wearing their sunglasses, whether their shirts were tucked in (if they were wearing them at all in some cases), and if they had their cover (headgear) with them...

Dan

Washington Post
April 4, 2005
Pg. 11

Opinions On Attire Not Quite Uniform

Some Troops in Northern Iraq Disagree With Rules on Their Appearance

By Steve Fainaru, Washington Post Foreign Service

MOSUL, Iraq -- Famished and sleep-deprived after a 48-hour combat mission, Spec. Rusty "Doc" Mauney shed his heavy body armor and headed for the chow hall. He was near the door when a booming voice halted him.

"Where's your headgear, soldier?" said the sergeant major.

Mauney stammered that he had been out on a mission all night and hadn't brought along his cap.

"You're not coming in here," snapped the officer, according to Mauney. "Just because you're in a combat zone doesn't mean you can blow off Army regulations."

A change in command last month at the forward operating base, or FOB, that serves as headquarters for U.S. forces in northern Iraq has dramatically altered the military culture here. A corps of disciplinarians that has come to be known to soldiers as the "Nine Disciples of FOB Courage" has launched a crackdown on inappropriately tucked-in shirts, improper use of sunglasses and even swearing.

The changes have led to a classic clash between the infantrymen who spend most days "outside the wire" and the vast number of rear-guard soldiers who rarely leave the base. Although many of the noncombat troops perform such critical functions as military intelligence and communications, the infantrymen lump them into a broad category known variously as "FOB Dwellers," "FOB Goblins" and "Fobbits."

"We call them 'Wire-Inees,' 'cause they never leave the wire," said Sgt. Michael Lukowksi, a 21-year-old infantryman from Portland, Ore. "They don't know what's out there."

The attire flap had nearly blown over before an unfortunate incident last month that confirmed many infantrymen's worst stereotypes. An information operations officer venturing outside for just the second time discharged his M-16 assault rifle inside a Stryker attack vehicle. About 20 bullet fragments and pieces of the metal floor lodged in a battalion commander's leg.

The major who fired the weapon belonged to the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, the new unit that instituted the disciplinary changes. Many soldiers quickly seized on the irony.

"It's almost humorous how far they go with this stuff," said Staff Sgt. Steve Siglock of the 3rd Battalion, 21st Infantry Regiment. "I mean, you're coming back from a patrol. You might have been shot up, you might have had your vehicle blown up and you've got some dude telling you to fix your uniform.

"Let me put it this way: They shot our B.C. in the foot. They got bigger problems than how we blouse our boots."

The 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment took command of northern Iraq shortly after the Jan. 30 parliamentary elections, moving into a palace headquarters once occupied by Saddam Hussein's notorious sons Uday and Qusay. The unit normally runs the military's National Training Center at Fort Irwin, Calif., where it scrutinizes other units in microscopic detail and brooks no deviation from military discipline.

The 11th ACR appears to have applied that mentality to the Stryker Brigade Combat Team, of Fort Lewis, Wash., which does most of the actual fighting in northern Iraq out of 21-ton armored personnel carriers called Strykers. Shortly after the latest Stryker unit, the 1st Brigade of the 25th Infantry Division, arrived last fall, Mosul was convulsed by insurgent violence in the form of bombs, mortars and small-arms fire.

In some ways, the renewed attention to uniform standards is a measure of the Stryker brigade's progress, particularly in Mosul, where attacks have plummeted since the elections.

"Every once in a while you gotta reel it in and say, 'Let's get back to reality,' " said Command Sgt. Maj. Ricky Pring, who enforces military regulations for the 11th ACR. "And I think that's what happened when we showed up. It was kind of like, 'Okay, everything has slowed down, and let's look at ourselves. What can we do better?' "

Pring described the Stryker brigade as "the best unit I've ever seen" but was unapologetic, saying, "Discipline makes our army stronger than any other army on the planet.

"I've been in the army 27 years. A happy soldier is a bitching soldier."

First Sgt. Lance Dyckman, of the Stryker brigade's 3rd Battalion, said, "It is a great sign of how well our army is doing that we're able to take the time out to flagellate ourselves over trivial stuff like this."

Some troops refer to the area around the palace, which is adorned with the 11th ACR's black stallion logo, as the BHPZ, or Black Horse Pedantic Zone.

Unlike Vietnam, where soldiers scrawled peace signs or slogans such as "Born to Kill" on their helmets, soldiers in Iraq rarely deviate from the standard four DCUs, or desert camouflage uniforms, they receive from the military. But they employ a range of tactical attire -- from Wiley X ballistic glasses that protect against shrapnel to special undershirts that soak up sweat during extreme heat to checkered scarves that they hope will endear them to local populations.

Some of the practices are legal under AR 670-1, the army's regulations on uniform wear and conduct, and Iraq Policy 05-05, a seven-page addendum.

Some aren't.

One that immediately came under scrutiny from the 11th ACR was the practice of tucking in shirts on combat missions. Army regulations call for the shirts to be worn out. But many soldiers tuck them in to prevent the flaps from catching on the Strykers and to give them easier access to weapons such as knives and revolvers strapped to their thighs.

The 11th ACR cracked down on the offenders but has since backed off after facing stiff resistance from the Stryker brigade.

Other rules are less flexible. Soldiers not wearing sunglasses can neither push them onto their foreheads nor wear them around their necks but must place them in their pockets. Soldiers walking to the mess hall must wear "headgear." All soldiers must "blouse" their pants above or at the second eyelet of their boots.

Staff Sgt. Brad Evans, of the 3rd Battalion's C Company, said he was walking to the mess hall with Staff Sgt. Victor Birdseye recently, their conversation sprinkled liberally with the most commonly used word in the military.

"Hey sergeant, watch your language," said a passing first sergeant, overhearing the conversation, according to Evans.

Evans said he has come to believe that the 11th ACR "has a separate sergeant major for each thing: one for hats, one for boots, one for gloves."

Even the 3rd Battalion's chaplain believes the rules are excessive for a combat zone. "I mean, I've got soldiers who go outside the wire who get in firefights, who get hit by IEDs [improvised explosive devices], who have had their buddies die in their arms," Capt. Dale Goetz said. He said the rules add to the soldiers' stress by forcing them to focus on "trivial stuff."

"I mean, back off," Goetz said.

Lt. Col. Michael Gibler, the battalion commander who was accidentally shot inside the Stryker, acknowledged the new rules initially created friction but said: "Change is good. Just like any organization, the 11th ACR came in and took a different look at what we're doing. And there's nothing wrong with that."

Gibler said his soldiers needed to realize that "some people have different jobs, and their jobs don't have them out and about every day. And it doesn't make them any less of a soldier, or any less part of the mission."

Pring, the command sergeant major who enforces the regulations, denied that the issue pitted rear-guard soldiers who focused on small rules against those who venture outside the wire.

"I'll bet you 10 bucks I'm outside this FOB just as much as any soldier in the" Stryker Brigade Combat Team, Pring said.

"I'll see his 10 and make it 20," said Spec. Robert Layton of the 3rd Battalion.
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Hock

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2005, 02:00:33 PM »

Rocks are thrown in the war zone, while rocks are painted white at headquarters.

(You can quote me on that, if you'd like...

Hock

Nick Hughes

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2005, 02:55:25 PM »

Yep,

It's one are I give the Legion a lot of credit.  We never had to polish our damn boots.  If they were black that was fine.  They didn't have to shine.  To much time to be spent on more practical matters than spit polishing boots.

I wrote an article about this very subject for Terry O'Neills "Fighting Arts International" on real discipline v the appearance of discipline which was published back in the early nineties.

N
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JimH

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2005, 04:39:23 PM »

Their are many now ,rear guard, who are also attacking Spec Ops people for not having regulation Haircuts or sporting beards or wearing non issued uniforms and gear.

Higher up leg officers have decided to try and enforce Dress codes that would make Spec Ops people look more soldierly than scruffy ruffians,lol.

How do you live amongst the indigenous and conduct operations if you do not fit in?

Men who go into combat should have a bit more free reign than some rear guard troops.

Combat troops should be housed and feed in areas away from rear echelon troops and treated as men/women who go out today and may not come back in tonight.

Power hungry jerk officers and SNCOS who have nothing better to do but exert their stupid views,just because they can.
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Kentbob

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2005, 11:28:27 AM »

     This kind of issue is one of the big reasons in my opinion why divisions are not able to function effectively.  When I was in the 501st, strictly a battalion sized element, we made sure that we were doing the right thing, and we also didn't have to worry about some colonel or general from somewhere sticking his nose into our business.  We owned the FOB, we did what we want, and made sure those loose standards were enforced.  Brown t-shirts with pts, who cares?  PTs to the chow hall, to the computers, all that kind of stuff.  We got back from a mission, and no one was around to mess with us. 
     In the 82d, and now the 3rd Herd, I believe that there are so many officers and sergean majors with a higher standard for each level of command.  As I have said before, we have neck, throat and groin protectors which are mandatory to wear.  The people who make this stuff mandatory don't wear it outside the wire on a regular basis, and never have to deal with it restricting their movement.  They didn't want us wearing black shirts under our uniforms, for some reason.  They still won't let us wear our issue fleece outside the uniform, although now that it is getting warmer, that is less of an issue. 
    In my professional opinion, there are so many individuals who don't know their fourth point of contact from a hole in the ground that they have to look for something else to do, and that something else is trivial minutae. 


Kent
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AikiCombatives

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2005, 07:08:28 AM »

All,

Just have to say something on this.  While there may be power hungry jerks out to make life miserable for soldiers, (admittedly some are idiots), the vast majority of NCOs and officers are extremely dedicated, accomplishing the mission and taking care of soldiers.  Without common standards we are a mob.  Standards are standards for all who wear US Army on their uniform (even if they are out of uniform for a while).  Free reign is bullshit and leads to elitism and anarchy.  As does housing units based on risk of mission.  Perhaps these units should get better food, clothing, other special things?  That is not the US Army.

Also admittedly there are some rules and regulations that are bullshit.  However without some modicum of discipline we turn into a mob, or worse yet turn into the Abu Graib soldiers.  There are no rear areas in Iraq...............none.  There are vital functions at all levels;  yes some more vital than others.  Believing at any level that you know absolutely what the right thing is, is miopic.....and dumb.  Real discipline, appearance discipline whatever, some sort of discipline is needed. 

Jack
V Corps, Heidelberg, Ge
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JimH

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2005, 07:51:09 AM »

The point that there are no rear areas is true,but if you are housed in a palace that is guarded and fortified and you never leave it ,that is a one sided view of combat as compared to the guys walking or riding in open trucks.
 
Agreed, no rules makes a mob,but the men and women who go outside the wire do not want a  mob they want a little less picky crap about appearance when inside the wire.
 
Do they need a cover on to go to chow?
Do they need wear only issued T shirt rather than the civie shirts that many have to keep them cool under a uniform,Vest and gear?
 
There are rules and then there are nit picky crap rules used by some to command respect and enforce a discipline which only wears on people who put it on the line everyday.
 
In Vietnam nit picky people often didn't last long.
 
It is funny that some of the Best military people are in spec Ops units and they operate under a different set of rules about uniform and appearance  and  I doubt they operate as a mob,they get the job done with out the crap.
Then again, now,many with power want to force them to conform and change as well,meet the standards of some leg officer.
                           .........................................................
The remarks about Abu graib are a joke.
Yes what was portrayed in the news does make these people look bad but if you really think they were operating outside of orders from higher up you are mislead.
The higher ups who would be charged were smart enough to pass verbal orders and not send out a signed memo or order.
 
It is funny that memmbers of the Secretary of Defenss office toured those prisons as did many Generals,Senetors and congressmen and no one saw a problem till some jerk with a camera  decided to take photos and go public.
 
Do you really believe PsyOps had nothing to do with wanting to BREAK these people.
 
Why do you think we have People imprisoned in cuba.
Why do you think certain prisoners are sent to friendly countries who do not view torture as being against an enemies rights.
 
It is funny that the Iraqis had/have books out on how to break Prisoners,and these tactics were used as described.
 
I am sorry I do not see a problem with torture,degrading a person or compromising them if the information I get saves lives.
 
When an Officers fires a round near a terrorists head for info and gets it and saves hundreds of lives and is then charged for discharging a weapon to get a  result something is wrong with the system.
 
Maybe my view is scewed by the belief that my men live no matter what and the enemy dies.
I guess this an old fashioned view.
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gumbey

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2005, 07:26:08 PM »

Today's military, especially the Navy, are very trivial with uniform regs nowadays. On the Navy side, gone are the untucked dungaree shirt tails, unbottoned dungaree shirts, wearing skivvy shirts while working in a humid area or in a galley, beards (exceptions are no-shave chits),long sideburns, Afros, and worn-out dungaree attire.
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AikiCombatives

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2005, 02:56:28 AM »

Not mislead at all reference AB.  There is a joke there, I meant exactly what I typed.  However, must disengage on further discussion on AB.

The original article was not about special ops, subsequent posts were.  the original article is about establishment and enforcement of standards.  If the standard established by the commander is to wear a cover to chow, or to wear brown t-shirts or whatever, that is the standard to be enforced by that entire chain of commmand, until it is changed.  That goes for inside the wire or outside the wire.  The fact that a soldier puts his/her life on the line on a daily basis is to be highly respected, greatly admired and alot of other emotion that might convey my feelings....................This fact alone does not inherently allow questioning of orders and standards.

Hmmmm, so we may have to issue a special patch or pin for those who at more at risk than others?  This will allow them to openly question orders/the chain of command (of those without the patch/pin), disobey the orders they see as "chickenshit" and obey only the ones with which they agree?  They can flash this when questioned by the chain of command as their "get out of jail you are not the boss of me card".  There are some really really stupid orders given and dumb standards established, and clouded judgemental opinions held, but that is the way things work.   Interpretation of regulations are a commander's perogative period........................that is why they pay the big bucks.  There are always civilian contract jobs where people can go and make their own rules wear what they want, get paid more money and such.  Or perhaps there is fast food.............Oh well.....on another point.............

There are extremely intelligent dedicated people in all aspects of the US military, not just in special ops.  Standards need to be adapted to the mission and situation of course.  However, to say the best people are in special ops alone is to denigrate all those other hard working servicepeople who make a difference, no matter the level or risk of that difference.  That is unacceptable in a military that prides itself on one team one fight.  Excuse me but I am special (oops I meant different and better ), so I live by a different standard........

Horse hocky (a bit more PC : ))) hahahaha

Jack
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JimH

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2005, 07:25:59 AM »

"If the standard established by the commander is to wear a cover to chow, or to wear brown t-shirts or whatever, that is the standard to be enforced by that entire chain of commmand, until it is changed.  That goes for inside the wire or outside "

My point is not for troops to disregard the orders ,but for the orders to take into account the activities of those who put their lives on the line.

This is why, in an earlier post, I said those who perform the duties of patrol should be seperated from those who do not.

Some one who puts time in on patrol has a  higher level of stress than those who do not and they need  to be able to unwind with out the petty crap.

If unable to unwind they will start to break and early signs and symptoms of PTSD start to show.

There is a BIG difference between those who are out on patrol and those who never leave the confines of the Base,and rules and regs should reflect that.

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Kentbob

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 10:21:27 AM »

     Standards and discipline are important, I stress this to my soldiers everyday.  However, the zeal that some folks show when enforcing the standards is...almost silly.  Granted that there is only one standard.  There only needs to be one standard.  However, I think when soldiers just come back from patrol, they can be given a friendly reminder instead of being shouted at.  I hate being shouted at personally, and on more than one occasion I have wanted to deck the REMF who was doing the self-righeous shouting or lecturing.  Half these REMFs, as the article stated, can't even take care of their own business i.e. the Negligent Discharge inside the Stryker.  You all know as well as I do that you have to ensure you meet the standard before you start enforcing it. 
     As far as picking and choosing which orders to follow, I have been in the Army nearly 7 years, and I have consistently seen my leaders do just that.  Does that make it right?  Perhaps not.  Do I care that much?  No.  Certain orders and certain regs are B.S.  We used to have a standing order in Alaska that all soldiers were to be released NLT 1500 on Fridays.  Needless to say, this didn't happen very often.  Not a big deal in my opinion.  We were also told that after October 1st, we had to wear cold weather boots, Gore-Tex, hat and gloves everywhere we went outside.  Never mind that one winter it barely ever got below freezing, certainly no worse than the weather at Ft. Bragg.  So, what did I do?  Applied my common sense (which isn't so common in today's Army) and wore what I needed to wear, not what ordered to. 
     As for those who enforced the standard, the sticklers for discipline in Vietnam.  Well, obviously, I wasn't there.  I just finished reading Col. (Ret.) David Hackworth's book "From Hopeless to Hardcore", and from what he said, he and his CSM enforced the standards ruthlessly, and they survived the war. 
     What I think it comes down to is the leaders being able to walk the walk, in addition to talk the talk.  Let's face it, from my perspective, many of them can't, otherwise I don't think we would be knee deep in the quagmire that is Iraq today.


Sgt. Kent Newland
B co 1-15 3rd BDE 3rd ID
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AikiCombatives

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2005, 11:00:33 AM »

Finally some sanity : ).  Just a couple last notes.  I would submit REMFs exist in spirit only.  The GWOT is a complex undertaking.  While some are on obvious front lines, some are not so obvious and never will be.  While there are some that don't go outside the wire, they are in an AO where there are no rear areas.  All are at risk, some more so than others yes!  My son and my oldest nephew for sure.  My oldest son is going back for his second tour with the USMC.   I will join him early next year.

Break.............................................

Now how about that dreadful US Army combatives manual.  Having worked combat devoopments in the past, I know how the manual process works.  Feels like the Army was taken over as an advertisement for the Gracies.  Have been teaching combatives here in Germany.  Find it hard to get the emphasis away from wrestling on the ground.  Was grabbed by a yound studdly soldier during a class (bear hug kind of hold).  He whispered in my ear, "get out of this old man".  Hmmm, so I pulled out my aluminum training knife fom a cargp pocket, stuck it in his groin and invited him to release his bear huggie hold thingie.  he was quite shocked.  Told him it was kind of important that you know if someone is armed before you grabbed them.  No where in that dreadful manual does it even come close to talking about the real world.  Oh in my combatives class the soldiers all have to wear IBA and LBE, and carry a rubber weapon.  Try combato BJJ like that : ))) Perahps we will try it with IPE also : ))

Jack
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Kentbob

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2005, 07:24:10 AM »

Finally some sanity : ).  Just a couple last notes.  I would submit REMFs exist in spirit only.  The GWOT is a complex undertaking.  While some are on obvious front lines, some are not so obvious and never will be.  While there are some that don't go outside the wire, they are in an AO where there are no rear areas.  All are at risk, some more so than others yes!  My son and my oldest nephew for sure.  My oldest son is going back for his second tour with the USMC.   I will join him early next year.

Break.............................................

Now how about that dreadful US Army combatives manual.  Having worked combat devoopments in the past, I know how the manual process works.  Feels like the Army was taken over as an advertisement for the Gracies.  Have been teaching combatives here in Germany.  Find it hard to get the emphasis away from wrestling on the ground.  Was grabbed by a yound studdly soldier during a class (bear hug kind of hold).  He whispered in my ear, "get out of this old man".  Hmmm, so I pulled out my aluminum training knife fom a cargp pocket, stuck it in his groin and invited him to release his bear huggie hold thingie.  he was quite shocked.  Told him it was kind of important that you know if someone is armed before you grabbed them.  No where in that dreadful manual does it even come close to talking about the real world.  Oh in my combatives class the soldiers all have to wear IBA and LBE, and carry a rubber weapon.  Try combato BJJ like that : ))) Perahps we will try it with IPE also : ))

Jack
     About the REMFs...there are a lot of folks on this FOB that I rarely ever see leave the wire, if ever.  As for no rear areas, I don't really know how to define a rear area.  Actually, I guess I don't really have to much else to say about the GWOT.  It doesn't really affect my job, so I don't really care.  I'm not here for money or medals.  I will say that certain Forward Operating Bases around here seem to do very little "operating".
     About the combatives, I agree.  Having met SFC. Larson, who developed the current combatives curriculum, back when he was Ssg. Larson, in 3/75, I recieved the distinct impression that he thinks BJJ is just the greatest thing since sliced bread, and teaching troops to strike right away, from all positions, is just a waste.  I think we have beat this horse dead, however.  The modern army combatives needs some overhauling.  All in favor, say aye.


Kent
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AikiCombatives

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2005, 10:11:41 AM »

AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  horse beaten to death : ))

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Trembula

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Re: Washington Post article on Uniform Standards In Combat...
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2005, 12:17:02 PM »

I agree.

This web page here should give those who haven't had enough of "Modern Army Combatives" some additional information...

http://www.moderncombatives.org/pages/1/index.htm

Dan
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