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Author Topic: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?  (Read 11094 times)

redcap

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Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« on: March 18, 2010, 02:22:23 AM »

I look around at what is being discussed, taught, You Tubed and so on and once again I am struck by the question: "Is he teaching self defence or fighting?"

Martial arts schools teach their art, boxing and kickboxing and MMA schools teach their sports, but those RBSD mobs and CQC/CQB/H2H/Combatives groups and self defence instructors et al, do they teach self defence or do they teach how to fight and I say there is a difference.

So many of the RBSD mobs try to have ongoing weekly classes yet to keep the students interested, coming back and paying they need to make sure they don;t get bored. So they expand the syllabus and really 'train', often becoming quasi aerobics classes or boxing gyms.

My point is that in self defence, once you make the gap and can escape, you do. That might require more than one or two strikes, or none at all but it does not require hours of BJJ or boxing. Hence I believe I can teach effective self defence to motivated students in a fairly short period, preferably with regular refreshers. I also like to focus more on the attitude, avoidance and other self protection skills than just the physical.

I'd be interested to read other people's input and please keep in mind this is my opinion, it doesn't mean I am saying anyone who does it differently is wrong etc.
Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 02:43:09 AM »

Its a good question and we kind of start falling into that trap we talked about with hanging out the "we do knife" shingle on another thread. It begs the question for more and more stuff.

I have slipped off into bit of another trap where I try to do serious survival stuff, intermixed with various skilled drills, modules and packages. But you know, I do seminars and thats different than breaking it all down into regular classes.

In the end, I think the savvy athlete does the best. I have learned that I cannot "save" everyone. In fact, I can't save the majority. The whopping majority. Only try.

(I hate to use the word "fight" too. But what else is there sometimes? Fighting is not really what I want to teach. The word game. And self defense bores the average MA person.)

I have a speech I use in every session,

"I will never tell you how to fight. I will just show a number of things and you exercise and experiment with them. You decide if you like them based on your size, shape, gender and strength. It's for you to work through and decide. BUT if you become an instructor? You have to know a great deal to teach all the sizes, shapes, strengths and genders."

And the cycle continues. But I almost never, ever see a brand new person. I almost always, completely see martial vets of all types. This makes me, through time, rather inept and inexperienced at teaching "regular" people. Even the police I see are on SWAT teams, and tactical training vets who do MA and MMA, karate etc. They care. They work out. They were not forced to attend something sponsered. The savvy athlete.

Plus, I think 90% of the MA people don't know the difference. They get caught up in the "Myth of the Duel." Its easy...

Hock

redcap

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 03:09:49 AM »

Good answer and one I can relate to. I have found despite trying to attract a wide audience I have usually ended up with those savvy athlete types. Are you burning the midnight oil or here in Oz somewhere?
Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 03:16:56 AM »

I am in Melbourne until next week.
My first real full day off since March 1!

Next year I have to split this trip in half. I am adapting. Integrating. The footy season has started. Resistence is futile. Starting to identify and call myself an obvious wanker.

But Tim LlaCuna and I escaped Townsville in time, as they say the cyclone is headed DIRECTLY there!

Skippy

Joe Hubbard

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 07:02:46 AM »

Everyone has their own interpretation of those terms as well.  To some self defence means using a collection of silly breakaway techniques- God forbid that we are ever offensive.  Fighting also has different interpretations, most relating to combat sport with rules and referees; on the other hand the term fighting evokes the "do or die" survival connotations.

My take on it is they go hand in hand and often the term "self defence" is used as a euphemism in order to reach more people.

Joe
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whitewolf

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 09:03:16 AM »


good thoughts here-as for me i really think the term self defense and fighting goes hand in hand-one is approached -they feel it will escalate immediately into a attack they go into some type fight.flight mode-never the less they in order to survive -if cornered will
fight the attacker using some type of self defense -weither it be a eye flick,elbow to face-repeated knee strikes etc till they can escape-or they just run like hell-

then we have the victim who freezes and does nothing.

I think that each person will react differently-hopefully for the best for them and a loved one.

By teaching students to be in a action mode where they are aware will make the difference due to the fact they have a second or 2 to act upon the situation. (in one second the assault could have been completed.)

Anyhow as i first stated i think the 2 terms intertwine- IMHO  WW

Which goes back to the term Retsuv- continuous motion.....
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noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 09:48:57 AM »

I don't really use the term self defense anymore as it's not really accurate for what I train. Fighting, maybe, but then there are a lot of definitions people have of fighting. Anyway I figure if I'm in a fight on the street then I've somehow screwed up.
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Canuk

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 11:41:22 AM »

I can think of a few leagal resaons why the term self defense should be allowed to crawl away and die but as to the question posed? well to me, self defense can include fighting while fighting doesn't always include self defense.

To me self defense also includes and understanding and practice of stratagey, tactics and tactical thinking. I have gone so far as to have actual sit down theory classes on the above in a class I called "understanding threat" these things and the ability to fight increase your chances of a successful outcome. Your ability to fight will be tested often if you cant recognise choke/ambush points or threat ques.

I much perfer the term personal protection as it also includes the mindset of "hit first"
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JimH

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 12:14:41 PM »

To me:
Self Defense is not just about the Fight/Contact/Conflict/Encounter it is about learning Awareness,Avoidance,Dialogue,Contact and Post Contact actions.

It is about working scenarios ,scenarios that can be replicated over and over until the student understands the concepts and principles of applied  combat that enables them to be offensive or defensive in response to a direct or indirect attack.

Self Defense teaches control and a degree of restraint.

Fighters learn to fight only.
When encountered/threatened they have no other training to give them an out or to help them escape they are taught and only know One reply which is to fight and to continue to fight,most times without restraint or control and no end in sight, until they decide to stop,and even then usually with another kick or strike laid in as they exit.

A Fight may be examined if taped but is not immediately definable or correctable nor is it immediately replicable,unless taped and walked through move by move.

A Fight is pure contact with nothing else in the mix.

The tools and applications of fighting and self defense can be taught in very little time,it is the other aspects that seperate the two or define the two.

My opinion.
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Kentbob

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 12:57:54 PM »

I don't know as I have a whole lot to add.  A lot of this boils down to semantics, but those semantics and hair-splitting may matter to different groups of people.  As Hock pointed out, MA people are rarely interested in a self-defense class, and vice versa.  In addition, if you're trying to teach a class out of a space that you don't own, what you call it and how you explain it are vital to whoever you may be pitching it too.

As an example, I'm making plans for trying to teach a class at the public school in my hometown.  It's something that I think is absolutely necessary, as there are not a lot of martial arts or self-defense classes in our largely rural area.  But, do I pitch it to the school board as self-defense, martial arts, combatives?  What to tell them when they inevitably ask for a description of what I do.  Everyone who's anyone that teaches any sort of self-respecting martial art or runs a school of any kind automatically says "Everything we do is geared towards self-defense", even if this isn't the case.  Is everything I do geared towards self-defense?  In the long run, yes.  But if I choose to run a conditioning drill, or a coordination drill, very few people will see the benefit as applied to defending one's self.  One thing I absolutely do not want to tell the school board is that I'm teaching people to fight, as fighting is "bad". 

Most likely I'll end up going back to Shima-Kempo JiuJitsu, and writing a detailed analysis of what I teach.  In essence, what I'm saying, you can't sum up what you teach in only one or two words.

Kent
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JimH

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 02:19:36 PM »

Self Defense seems to lend on the side of a Legal Aspect,where one is able to Justify defense of self,loved ones and home.

Martial Arts refers to Military arts and skills employed in conflict,an art which requires time to perfect and master.

Combatives are seen as a Military Hand to Hand Fighting method which most interpret as a soley Killing art.(Used to kill and remove the enemy from the battlefield)

Ordinary,untrained,People interested in protecting themselves may just understand Self defense and or Personal Protection better than other names.

If selling to the Military ,then Combatives would be a better term.

If selling fitness,history,tradition,time and Martial skills then Martial arts is better.

My opinion
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whitewolf

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 05:28:35 PM »

Kent-when i asked to teach some classes to the high schools i met with the gym teachers and said i was going to give some lessons on "how to protect your self"
That seemed to cover the self defense aspect. Try that term-might work.
I also am experimenting with the term "life saving"- WW
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redcap

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2010, 06:00:11 PM »

I posted the very same question (copy/paste) on another forum and I have to say the responses here are  far less 'defensive' (maybe not the right term but it'll do for now).

I originally aimed this question towards a discussion on a legal point:

At what stage does an action in self defence become something else? In other words you go from defending yourself to fighting with the other person, arguably a consensual action.

Example: You are confronted and you are in immediate fear of your safety and think he will strike you. You strike first, follow up and an opportunity to leave arises, you take it.

Example: You are confronted and you are in immediate fear of your safety and think he will strike you. You strike first, follow up and an opportunity to leave arises, you choose to put a few more in to make sure he learns his lesson/can't continue his assault/ whatever.

The main thing being in the second example you were the one that continued the fight. As someone somewhere mentioned about the arm bar; you get him down and BJJ an arm bar on him... then what? Do you hold him until (hopefully) help arrives? Do you snap the arm? His lawyer later cross examines you and brings up the point that after you had him under control and thus no longer a threat, you broke his arm on purpose?

So my question is not so much about what you name what you teach but what you actually are teaching, both from the results perspective and also the 'keep 'em coming back' angle.
Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2010, 06:15:12 PM »

At what stage does an action in self defence become something else?

Its a use of force issue. And each time is highly situational. Every combat scenario must be taught with this use of force/rules of engagement perspective.

I know that I pepper EVERY knife and gun combat scenario with both less-than-lethal (civilian and police) and lethal (some military now, some police, some civilian) options and explanations on this. Its a lot about the finish of the fight. How do you finish the fight.

And the scrap/fight can change back and forth in an instant. Lots of civilians, some quite educated, don't understand this. Since I constantly bring this up, I am constantly surprised by comments and questions on this around the world.

My guess is I have been in police work for so long, I have a good working knowledge on this go/no-go, issue. When local police attend the local seminars they help me explain the problems.

Hock

noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 10:08:39 PM »

Something that many forget. Some guys go docile once they think they're beat, and then as soon as your guard is down they come right back at you. Or if you're dealing with someone with a weapon who drops it, changing from one level of use of force to another, but since a weapon is still around the level could go right back up again.

We'll do some drills/scenarios where things will start out less than lethal (grabbing, wild haymakers), go to lethal (one guy with a weapon or using different techniques like a choke), back down to less than lethal (attacker drops weapon backs off or goes submissive) and back up again. Even without the pressure of real life a lot of guys fail to use the proper UoF when things switch up.

BTW, What's everyones local laws on using a shod foot to kick someone?

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/news/Halifax-man-facing-jail-for.5110752.jp




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redcap

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 12:15:12 AM »

The shod foot is considered a weapon here in New South Wales and from memory there is precedent for it being more serious than a kicking with bare feet. It 'aggravates' the assault.
Redcap
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 03:14:25 AM »

As Hock has stated it is a force continuum issue that has to be table-topped, reviewed and rehashed constantly.  Bruce Lee said something to the effect that it is your opponent that dictates your next move.  I like this because it becomes a visceral awareness issue within the chaos of a conflict.  Experience plays a big role in coming close to getting this right and of course every situation has its own unique challenges to face.  

Dissecting the whole force continuum subject often proves to be unpopular with systems that operate on extreme sides of the continuum.  I have always been amazed by people who are shocked by Hock’s dissertation on finishing options:

1) Control & Containment
2) Disablement
3) Unconsciousness
4) Death

Some of the people’s expressions are like, “Oh man, why did he have to use “D” word.”  It beggars belief on how so many people conceptualise what they are actually teaching.

Joe
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 06:42:40 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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Canuk

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 06:10:37 AM »

The authority to use force (anyone in Canada) is codified in the Criminal code, sections 25, 27, 34 and 37 detail force used to defend yourself and or another person under your care up to and including using deadly force as well as force used to PREVENT the commission of an indictable offence. Section 26 states that you will slapped in the dick should you use mor eforce than in reasonably necsassry (its always subjective of course)

kicking someone with steel toe boot and shoes would be considered as use of a weapon.
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noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2010, 07:01:52 AM »

I ask the shoe question all the time and most karate and even some SD guys have never even thought about it, though they're teaching people kicking techniques for the street.

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 07:14:04 AM »

kicking someone with steel toe boot and shoes would be considered as use of a weapon. 

Are you saying that in Canada this is a fact?  Certainly not in the States or the UK.

Joe
 
 
 
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JimH

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2010, 08:09:27 AM »

If I am walking down the street and am stopped,confronted and verbally or physically threatened and I cannot get away due to the actions of the person confronting me I have have the RIGHT to use the force needed to protect myself and escape/go on my way.

I am not an on duty Police Officer or Security Guard,I am NOT Obliged to pin hold,detain or secure my attacker until help comes.

If I am in fear for my safety and forced to act,why would I stay in an area where the attacker may have back up,or may have friends who come on the scene and they then engage me physically.

If I work in a job where I wear boots which Protect my feet from being crushed or cut,and I am walking home and am attacked,stopped and threatened I have a right to protection which includes using kicks and strikes.
What am I supposed to do,pull a "Billy Jack" moment sit down and take my boots off to protect myself ?

If I Have a pen in my pocket and am attacked and placed in fear/belief of serious bodily harm can I employ it ?
I say yes

Weapons of opportunity used in protection of self over weapons used to initiate,provoke,an attack.
If I have been unduly stopped by someone who has made it clear that they mean me harm,They INITIATED the conflict,I am responding to their threat,I am using SELF DEFENSE.

To me I do not train to hold,pin and secure on the street.
I train to terminate the threat quickly,cause some pain to deter follow up responses by the attacker and move on.
If a break happens due to my first strike,(let us say a low line kick to the knee),in the heat of the action,does the attacker know the knee is broken ? Do I know the knee is broken ?
Since I do not know the condition in relation to my strike I continue to strike or use techniques that enable me to down the attacker.
To me the attack is over when the attacker is down and I believe I can safely move on and not be persued.

I have the right to self protection as specified under the law,and with in the law.

If the person is down and unable to persue,continuation of the attack then may lead to my turning into the attacker /assailant as perceived by witnesses and or the law.
I must be able to justify my response start to finish.

My opinion

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noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2010, 08:54:40 AM »

kicking someone with steel toe boot and shoes would be considered as use of a weapon.  

Are you saying that in Canada this is a fact?  Certainly not in the States or the UK.

At least in Virginia and some other states. If you use a shod foot with intent to do harm, it's a weapon.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=ma&vol=appslip/appMar03k&invol=1

3. Sufficiency of the evidence of use of shod foot as dangerous weapon. The judge properly denied the defendants' motions for required findings of not guilty on the indictments for assault and battery by means of a dangerous weapon, a shod foot. There was evidence that both defendants were wearing shoes. The kicking described in the evidence was not so minimal as to foreclose an inference that the shod feet of the defendants were being used as dangerous weapons. Contrast Commonwealth v. Mercado, 24 Mass. App. Ct. 391, 397 (1987) (insufficient evidence where use of shod foot was no more than a nudge). There was, in addition, evidence that the attack was the fulfilment of a promise to do serious harm to the victim. There was adequate evidence to permit the jury to infer beyond a reasonable doubt that the victim was kicked with shod feet in a manner which was capable of causing serious bodily injury. See Commonwealth v. Fernandez, 43 Mass. App. Ct. 313, 315 (1997).manner which was capable of causing serious bodily injury. See Commonwealth v. Fernandez, 43 Mass. App. Ct. 313, 315 (1997).


http://www.armfor.uscourts.gov/opinions/2002Term/01-0084.htm

As to appellant's intent to kill or inflict great bodily harm, these same factors provide a legally sufficient basis upon which the members could have inferred that all of the assailants, including appellant, acted with such intent. Cf. United States v. Martinez, 40 MJ 426, 430 (CMA 1994) ("[F]ists and shod feet used by multiple assailants can constitute a means likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm and entitle the person being attacked to use deadly force."). He was an active, voluntary perpetrator of the assaultive kicking while the victim was on the ground for a number of minutes. Appellant voluntarily participated in a chain of events that prevented the victim’s escape. Thompson, supra at 259 (a number of "affirmative step" by the appellant and his cohorts).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 08:56:21 AM by noload »
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Canuk

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2010, 09:51:29 AM »

kicking someone with steel toe boot and shoes would be considered as use of a weapon. 

Are you saying that in Canada this is a fact?  Certainly not in the States or the UK.

Joe

What I am saying is that if you walk up to someone and kick the shit out of them with your steel toes on then you can be charged with weapon offenses, if you are walking home and jumped by someone and kick them to defend yourself and are wearing steel toes then you are going to be fine. In Canada if you intend for something to be used a weapon then its a weapon.
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2010, 09:57:11 AM »

What I am saying is that if you walk up to someone and kick the shit out of them with your steel toes on then you can be charged with weapon offenses, if you are walking home and jumped by someone and kick them to defend yourself and are wearing steel toes then you are going to be fine. In Canada if you intend for something to be used a weapon then its a weapon.

Okay, that's what I thought you probably meant. 

Joe
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arnold

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2010, 07:43:32 PM »

2 words.. beat him, two more, shoot him, two more , bury him.
last 2, drink Schlitz!
See how easy it is to narrow it all down to it's simpliest form....
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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2010, 06:10:34 AM »

Growing up I knew a kid who wore steel toe boots for the express reason of fighitng. he was a rough guy. I think the reason most SD teachers teach more fighting than SD is to keep people coming back. I have taught traditional TKD and infused SD into the classes, but to me SD is a mindset rather than tecniques. Stay away from dangerous people and dangerous places. After that its basically," kill the motherfucker before he kills you". Pretty simple.
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noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2010, 09:04:19 AM »

In my opinion that leaves a real big gap for what you might encounter. There's an awful lot of situations that can be nipped in the bud while still less than lethal.
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TLE

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2010, 12:41:11 PM »

nload- could you be more specific? Thanks
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noload

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2010, 04:41:37 PM »

I'll try. I think self defense is mind set backed up by techniques that fit the situation. When we say, stay away from dangerous people and dangerous places, that's good commonsense advice. Unfortunately it doesn't cover the majority of places where the average person may face some level of violence. I've run into situations at karate schools, Epcot, a city street at lunch time, good restaurants, a fancy bar, neighborhood BBQs, a bank in an OK part of town, a movie theater and an office. Most didn't involve people who would normally be considered dangerous, and most didn't even involve people we'd think of as bad guys, but most did entail someone who was getting more and more out of hand and escalation of the situation. Most were handled by talking, standing ground or with a bit of physicality.



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TLE

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Re: Do You Teach Self Defence - Or Fighting?
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2010, 05:27:38 PM »

No doubt that violence can happen anywhere and anytime. Recently in Chicago a couple were almost beaten to death coming out of a grocery store by a homeless man and women who were  pan handling. Avoidance, awareness, body language, posture, de-escalation...  are the most imporatant part of SD. My comment was more in the context of teaching regular daily classes. I think the above mentioned aspects of SD can be addressed better in a seminar or short course model.  I don't really know about "a little physicality" when confronted with criminal violence. Could you give an example?
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