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Author Topic: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway  (Read 8427 times)

whitewolf

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Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« on: June 25, 2011, 02:41:17 AM »

Thought i would show this one- note the use of th body as leverage in the takeaway
plus one problem with using the original takeawy method when the attacker is moving in a circular motion- WW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKRPDH7lzhc&NR=1


« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 07:12:01 PM by Hock »
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Karl

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 03:23:24 AM »

Yes, he showed that to us on our Instructor course.
It gives you more control of the firearm if there are other persons around.

I like him as instructor as he explains what works against Resistance

He asked me if i would take him on.
I said: with a glock 23 and 7 meter distance any time.
He just laughted.
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noload

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 08:00:33 AM »

I've never liked the standard KM gun grab as it just seemed to be unrealistic and too far out. Not to mention that the guy with the gun is able to move an awful lot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE&feature=related

What Itay is showing is closer to what I learned, though leaning in could get you off balance (at least to my way of thinking).

I came across this one which is close to one that I use a lot, and would seem to come from Itay gil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1y7VZ9BQxY
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 08:44:02 AM »

Of the vidios shown I think the one by Itay Gil is more effective as he adds the Retzev
continuous motion (strike/Kick)-I also understand he is excellent-He does not teach civilians any more -owns a security school in Israel now. It would be my dream to attend but as a civilian dont think i am eligable-Besides  teaching a technique like this i feel it is important to instill the mental structure of defending into a student.
The civilian defense info being passed on  by Hock fits right in to my learning and teaching. As people on the forum review this thread you will get all kinds of responses.
As practioners of defense we need to try what is shown-see if it works for you in the setting you are in. I.E. -Police officer,Military, private citizen-
If one has not done takeaways under STRESS-then i recommend you find a school that  has that in its  curriculum (if you are interested )-Just my opinions here-WW
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JimH

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 08:51:35 AM »

I dislike the techniques in the first clip where the victim turns their back to the attacker and or uses the head and shoulders in the technique.
Never give your back,if you can help it and never purposely take yourself out of balance in an attempt to take an opponent off balance who is standing almost straight up and above you.

I also dislike the clip of the parry ,single hand grab to an arm bar and then a wrist lock.
Allows the shooter to fire off numerous rounds ,and to spin into the victim with an elbow to the back of the head.

If you parry the weapon,regrab in a catchers type ,two handed grab,(locking the slide to cause a possible one fire/malfunction,and go right into the wrist lock.
The clip has too much time and extra moves,reduce the movements to the minimum.

Everything works so well when the fingers are off the trigger.

My opinion.
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 09:11:07 AM »

Morning JimH-good points- well taken-i agree about giving your back-dangerous move
We do have to remember that speed-counts here-we are attempting to beat the opponents thought process-not the pull of the trigger-if in a training saranio we put our hands up-wait-opponent can execute the trigger pull-lots come into play-i.e.
Fear is a big one-also lack of training in this sticks its ugly head up-also who is with you-guess it comes down to the 5 W,s-and- how far is he from you-is it a robbery-kidnapping-start of a hostage situation-???lots to think about..But-not facing this type sanario leaves many who may face it unprepared. Lastly-I personally think while engaging the weapon you are beating him in the face fast and drivng forward -no matter which technique is being used-JMHO- ww
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JimH

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 03:47:04 PM »

Speed is important,but to me ,getting out of the line of fire by moving my body and moving the weapon,having control of the weapon is more important than speed.

If we give a bad position ,such as back to the attacker  or bad position of balance,then speed does not mean anything as the attacker will easily negate the technique.

These are techniques that I have trained and or have tried,many with air soft and or other means to see if the opponent can fire and or act/react against you,and this is how and why i give my opinion.

Itay Gil has been doing these techniques for years and he makes them look easy and doable.
I suggest people try them against a resisting attacker and see how well they actually work.

Everyone must find what does and does not work for them,I just give my OPINION and reasons for what I like or dislike and why.

Try everything but make sure you do it against a person with intent and find the reality ,not just some name guy doing it in a static fashion.
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noload

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 04:02:11 PM »

Quote
Everything works so well when the fingers are off the trigger.

Excellent point Jim. I've trained against a real gun (unloaded) and airsoft, and it makes a difference.

One thing that always seems to be missing from these demos is a early to mid phase techniques.
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011, 07:28:33 PM »

Jim and Noload-again i agree-some more thoughts-yes we have to practise and add stress to the training-its good to train under various situations- its also a good idea to move outside the building and move to a alley way or similar area-add as much realism as possible-have other students making noise-horns going off car engines
running-use one hand behind back (it was hurt)-make up drills that are not dojo friendly-yes Itay Gill has been around a long time-we should use training as he shows  and practise over and over-the takeaway may work and it might not-but we should go on the premis that practising may help even the odds. If we are taking close combat training to possibly use then we got to get into that mind set. No ands  ifs or buts-JMHO ww
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2011, 07:37:22 PM »

Hey Karl-how about some more from you-was glad to see your post-R/S WW
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 08:00:36 PM »

Also-i went back to previous threads about this-dont forget to recheck Hocks May 2011 entry about gun takeways-excellent..... WW
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Kentbob

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 10:45:52 AM »

Pistol disarms are a dime a dozen.  The nature of the fingers and the hand in a one handed grip on the pistol make taking the pistol away from someone holding it with one hand quite simple.  Pry up, or pry to the left or right.

I believe that one's time could be better served working on pistol disarms against a two handed grab, as this is by far more difficult.  The off hand reinforces any weaknesses that the gun hand would otherwise have.

If one is going to do pistol disarms against a person holding the pistol with one hand, I feel that the time would be better spent doing the disarm 15% of the time, and then working through the various counters to the disarm the rest of the 85% of the time.  Brainstorm the counter.  For example, what if the attacker takes a knee, backs up, or jerks the pistol back?  Try these counters in your disarms, I do not think you will appreciate what happens.

Kent
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 04:58:26 PM »

Yes- practising against  two hand grabs should be practised-in additon time should be spent showing the student how to use his body to lunge forward to use he weight and force to ovrcome a possible pull back of the pistol-at the same time repeated strikes to face should be accomplished-as stated there are many variations-what is to be
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 05:02:06 PM »

sorry-continued-what is also to be driven into the student is aggression against the opponent, and speed up his reaction time to the initial weapon being  shown, drawn,
or observed inside a piece of clothing.-WW
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ShooterMMA

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 05:11:00 PM »

It's not about perfect technique (you can create what ewer you want), it's about what will you do, what will be your first reaction (respond)!
And if someone will pull the gun in your head, under this conditions the most instinctive thing is to grab, not to jump around doing some more perfect techniques  :)

Real life story with gun, it was simple grab (shoot) and simple take away (similar like basic KM tec.).
Go with a nature not with a "my way is better then your" :)

Some guys on previous videos muzzle them self a lot.
About easy take away of gun, try to take away it from experience shooter! The hand and grip is like a rock!
 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 05:12:38 PM by ShooterMMA »
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JimH

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2011, 05:30:07 PM »

Some one who wants to  intimidate,and knows what they are doing will not put the pistol at arms length ,away from them towards the victim,anyway.
If you do manage to grab a pistol in the hand of a pistol person,they will pull the weapon down,slightly then up and back and you will,if you made a single grab,being holding a  bloody hand ,as the front sight of a revolver or automatic will rip your hand open.
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Kentbob

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2011, 07:20:42 PM »

I'm not sure who you're responding to, Shooter.  I know that I didn't say anything about perfect technique, and I don't think anyone else did either.

The only perfect technique that I recognize, and I'm sure someone has said this before, is the technique that works when you need it to.

Kent
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2011, 07:57:46 PM »

shooter-thats why when you grab the slide-the other hand destroys the face if possible - then you initiate the takeaway-(if thats the  movement you are attempting to do)-remember the finger is in the trigger guard and you use it as leverage- weither you are going under the wpn or turning it back into the attacker-we teach to destroy the attacker physically in what ever way can be accomplished.  -JMHO  WW
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ShooterMMA

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2011, 01:35:50 AM »

@Kentbob

I was talking about videos, and the story my way is better then your.
Quote
For example, what if the attacker takes a knee, backs up, or jerks the pistol back?  Try these counters in your disarms, I do not think you will appreciate what happens
Good points. This things you need to take in consideration when you do gun disarm, need to expect it.

@JimH
Quote
Some one who wants to  intimidate,and knows what they are doing will not put the pistol at arms length ,away from them towards the victim,anyway.
True, in this case not many thing you can do. That is way I said if you want to disarm someone, you are crazy mofo or it was instinctively or you last resort.

I know few examples here where people tried to disarm and got injured or killed (cos of mentality I know the technique), and few when they stayed alive and it was always instinctively reaction or guy whit a big balls.

Mentality of I'm MA and I know the special technique will get them to be shooted. Work from fear and intimidation position, and then see what is possible to be done.

My opinion
« Last Edit: June 29, 2011, 01:37:45 AM by ShooterMMA »
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whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2011, 08:52:07 AM »

ShooterMMA-just curious where are you from-USA or Europe-
WW
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ShooterMMA

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2011, 10:37:27 AM »

ShooterMMA-just curious where are you from-USA or Europe-
WW
I already answered you this on some of previous subjects.
Eastern Europe. Ex Yu
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Dawg

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2011, 01:27:26 PM »

WW,

One of "Shooter's" schools is in Serbia; here's the link previously posted:
http://krav-maga.rs/

That's gonna cost you another beer when I come to TN!

Good thing you've got the old squid lookin' out for the ancient jarhead.

Who luvs ya?
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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

whitewolf

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2011, 05:59:31 PM »

Ah Dawg man-Ill gladly buy you the beer-Ill be drinking vodka with black berry chaser.

As for ShooterMMA-couple thoughts-one-I have over 4000 posts here-how many you got-  ;D  Lets see if you can rememeber a specific post after posting 10----WW
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Kentbob

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Re: Interestig method of responding to a hand gun takeaway
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2011, 07:11:32 PM »

I get the impression that you're keeping score.  The man who talks less can often learn more.


Kent
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"Specialization is for insects."-Robert A. Heinlein

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Dawg

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Re: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2011, 08:45:57 PM »

I get the impression that you're keeping score.  The man who talks less can often learn more.
Kent

I just got the impression the old dude was explaining why he might have forgotten the Serbian dude's response. Just for the record, WW wouldn't even know how many posts anybody had unless it was written there, right by the screen name.

The man who writes less has a lower chance of acquiring carpal tunnel syndrome. ::)
(Damn! I still like Kentbob's saying better! Best I could come up with.)
Just sayin'!
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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

whitewolf

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Re: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2011, 05:37:49 AM »

Kent- nooooo- no score keeping here-just trying to get the old brain housing group to function-got to grease the wheel some more--to help this problem i am going to change my age-this sep instead of being 73 i will celebrate my 72nd-and the next year 71-thats my story and i am sticking with it- ::)-oh for the record I am a
shtarker.........and proud of it-R/S WW
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whitewolf

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Re: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2011, 08:03:08 PM »

Talking about ways to retain a wpn -I searched and found this one- hard to see but it shows that gun takeaways dont always work-yes the instructor has been doing it awhile but the basics are there to try- WW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d1sXyEMMGc&feature=feedrec_grec_index



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JimH

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Re: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2011, 08:52:00 PM »

I was at that demo.
Nice for what it was.
Master Duncan used  Jujitsu/Aikido type techniques,they work well,

When showing that a gun take away can be reversed /denied,his student did not come with intent to take and hold on to the weapon.
The student did a half hearted attempt and went with his instructors technique.

If a disarm is attempted and the weapon grabbed,held,controlled and a lock ,put on with intent and movement,it is hard to stop.
If a weapon disarm is done in a half hearted way,then it can be stopped and reversed.

That was what I took away from the demo.
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whitewolf

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Re: Interesting method of responding to a handgun takeaway
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2011, 08:06:26 AM »

Interesting and makes sense to me-i also watched his demos on vidio using a book, magazine, and a brief case for defense-i liked those too.
Again as always the student is there in a demo to make the movement look good.
This guy does look fast though. WW
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