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Author Topic: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory  (Read 13254 times)

Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2010, 02:09:45 PM »

Ya very similar, nice find tho, I had not seen that one!
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Hock

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2010, 02:18:58 PM »

GREAT article.
A real keeper.
We have been talking about this kind of thing for years, but in the relationship of a veteran outfielder in baseball, watching precisely how his pitcher pitches, how the batter precisely stands, precisely moves and swings, and getting the "jump" on the ball.
this ONLY comes from hundreds and thousands of hours of playing. Visceral. Not watching the game on TV. Being there - as they say. Fighers, fighting over time get this.


Hock
(but what would Mr Hicks et al since, think about that in 1950?)

Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2010, 02:29:54 PM »

Hock
(but what would Mr Hicks et al since, think about that in 1950?) 
 
 
Ahem, well clearly these people are genetic freaks of nature and no mere mortal can expect to keep up to that!

Hock,

Didn't anyone ever tell you it's rude to point out the problems with Blauer "science"
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Hock

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2010, 02:40:52 PM »

I know...what does Tony say when you ask something too deeply or disagree...

"Thats not the Blaur spirit."

Hock

Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2010, 02:45:19 PM »

Oh and for the record he's from Montreal, not Canada
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2010, 02:46:20 PM »

IIRC it comes from that mental rehersal experiment where students were divided into 3 groups, one shot baskets, one visualized shooting baskets, and the other did nothing.

Benjamin, before this gets buried too far...what is this deal now? IIRC?

Hock

The experiment or what "IIRC" means?

IIRC = if I remember correctly.


As for the experiment I've read about it in pyschology books, basically they took 3 groups of stuents, over a certain time period, one group practiced shooting baskets, one group visualized shooting baskets, and the other did nothing.  Before and after the experiment they tested the student's basket shooting ability.  The group that actually practiced showed the most improvement, the group that visualized improved almost as much as the group that practiced, but not as much, and the group that did nothing showed no improvement.  I read about this in the early 1990s, so the books were probably written in the 1980s.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2010, 02:49:08 PM »

Another point about visualization for mental rehersal is that it is usually done fully associated, meaning that you are imagining it as if you are doing it, not watching the skill.  It would be like virtual reality as opposed to watching something on TV.  It is also important to feel as if you are doing it rather than just seeing it.
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2010, 04:00:22 PM »

Another point about visualization for mental rehersal is that it is usually done fully associated, meaning that you are imagining it as if you are doing it, not watching the skill.  It would be like virtual reality as opposed to watching something on TV.  It is also important to feel as if you are doing it rather than just seeing it.

Yep gotta involve all the senses
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2010, 05:03:00 PM »

According to Tony Robbin's,and others in NLP and Modeling for success.
We find an expert in the field we are interested in.
We try to absorb and Model/Copy as many aspects of that person as possible which pertain to our interests.
In the physical:
We Watch the Expert,or person we seek to copy.
We observe and note all aspects of movement.
We then Transfer those same movements to our training
We employ the movement slowly,visualize,correct,visualize correct as we attempt to over lap our functionality over the experts.
We then have a base for ourselves of what perfection is and we work on making the perfection a reality.

So we must start with an idea of IDEAL movement.(in relation to the physical)
We must absorb the Ideal and make it part of us
when intigrated to the point we understand the IDEAL Movement
We then concentrate on perfecting ourselves
Visualize US doing it correctly,perfectly,Ideally
We then strive to replicate it in the Real Physical world

Best applied to something we have a basic understanding of than something we are unfamiliar with.
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2010, 05:26:01 PM »

In other words monkey see monkey do, the trick is to find the right monkey!
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2010, 09:38:45 AM »

Quote Canuk
"In other words monkey see monkey do, the trick is to find the right monkey!"

In a Nut shell that is it
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gematriot

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2010, 10:05:55 AM »

Quote
In the big picture I think the overall mind knows what it is perceiving as real and what is not, therefore there is a difference in a biological responses.

Yes it does...
2 examples of related studies

Brain activity evoked by inverted and imagined biological motion

Abstract

Previous imaging research has identified an area on the human posterior superior temporal sulcus (STS) activated upon viewing biological motion. The current experiments explore the relationship between neural activity within this region and perceptual experience. Biological motion perception is orientation dependent: inverting point-light animations make them more difficult to see. We measured activity levels within this region as observers viewed inverted point-light animations. We also measured neural activity while observers imagined biological motion and compared it to that measured while observers viewed the animations. In both experiments we found that the BOLD response was modulated with perceptual experience. Viewing inverted biological motion activated posterior STS more than scrambled motion, but less than upright biological motion. Mental imagery of biological motion was also sufficient to activate this region in most of our observers, but the level of activity was weaker than during actual viewing of the motion animations. (EMPHASIS ADDED)

Neural Substrates of Real and Imagined Sensorimotor Coordination
O. Oullier, K.J. Jantzen, F.L. Steinberg and J.A.S. Kelso

Abstract
 
Much debate in the behavioral literature focuses on the relative contribution of motor and perceptual processes in mediating coordinative stability. To a large degree, such debate has proceeded independently of what is going on in the brain. Here, using blood oxygen level-dependent measures of neural activation, we compare physically executed and imagined rhythmic coordination in order to better assess the relative contribution of hypothesized neuromusculoskeletal mechanisms in modulating behavioral stability. The executed tasks were to coordinate index finger to thumb opposition movements of the right hand with an auditory metronome in either a synchronized (on the beat) or syncopated (off the beat) pattern. Imagination involved the same tasks, except without physical movement. Thus, the sensory stimulus and coordination constraints were the same in both physical and imagination tasks, but the motoric requirements were not. Results showed that neural differences between executed synchronization and syncopation found in premotor cortex, supplementary motor area, basal ganglia and lateral cerebellum persist even when the coordinative patterns were only imagined. Neural indices reflecting behavioral stability were not abolished by the absence of overt movement suggesting that coordination phenomena are not exclusively rooted in purely motoric constraints. On the other hand, activity in the superior temporal gyrus was modulated by both the presence of movement and the nature of the coordination, attesting to the intimacy between perceptual and motoric processes in coordination dynamics.(EMPHASIS ADDED)
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2010, 11:00:20 AM »

Good morning Gem-ok-sense i am just a old  ;D retired Marine- would you please tell me this in laymans language (even though what u wrote was excellent)- if i view a tactic on a vidio can i learn it without doing it on the mat- and when i go to the mat and try it should it work ?
I did see a vidio of a strangle choke using a gee and never did it on the mat with a partner-i went to take a class in BJJ-wound up on the floor and did the choke and he tapped out- maybe i was lucky??
thanks whitewolf
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gematriot

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2010, 11:29:43 AM »

Hi White Wolf...
Gonna have to think on that for a while...
PS. My last post was mere "copy paste" :)
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2010, 12:24:56 PM »

ok gem- waiting- thanks WW
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Canuk

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2010, 12:34:16 PM »

Good morning Gem-ok-sense i am just a old  ;D retired Marine- would you please tell me this in laymans language (even though what u wrote was excellent)- if i view a tactic on a vidio can i learn it without doing it on the mat- and when i go to the mat and try it should it work ?
I did see a vidio of a strangle choke using a gee and never did it on the mat with a partner-i went to take a class in BJJ-wound up on the floor and did the choke and he tapped out- maybe i was lucky??
thanks whitewolf

That comes back to PRINICPLE based training, you had all the elements in place to start with additionally when you viewed the video you had a fair idea of what was going on and how to may logically proceed. The imagery re enforced skills sets you already possessed
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2010, 04:35:30 PM »

Canuk- i did not think of it in that way- makes sense-WW
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Thomas Keplar

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2010, 09:39:01 PM »

one  can approach reality only so close in training.

military, law enforcement, special ops in some cases train
"close to the edge" with people getting killed in training.

this is seen as a "necessary evil" to continue our way of life.

the more realistic the training, the more the brain "fires" like
the real event.

still I think the vast majority of people would still know the difference training
and reality.

a few things are high probability........

we will execute how we train.

the more realistic the training, the better.

the more sweat in practice, the less blood in reality.

test, test and test again.

keep in mind that the mind can be tricked into
believing that training is real only to find out it is not.

fantasy is fantasy.

training is training.

real is real. period.

Regards

Thomas Keplar





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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2010, 04:11:41 AM »

Nice post- welcome Thomas!

Joe
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2010, 07:33:41 AM »

welcome thomas-good info  WW
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2010, 02:18:29 PM »

Welcome Thomas,
Very Nice post.

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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2010, 02:31:30 PM »

A friend just introduced me to Bas Ruttons cd striking by numbers- 2  min and 3  minute 10 rounders-it sure wears me out
plus he made a sttement to listen practise and when in your car or even juswt sitting review the punches 1 through 4 plus liver shot and upper cuts in your mind- he says it helps out-for when you are actually hitting the bag..
i also am adding doing elbow strikes instead of punching plus throwing in knees.
all helps coordination and balance- at least to me-  WW
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JimH

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2010, 03:11:30 PM »

If I may comment on a few points about training and the perception of Reality.

To me,if we train to fight and train to spar as a regular event,without aspects of SURPRRISE then we are training,we may be close to Reality in the effort put into controlled contact,but we have not activated the Mind to jump to a low level,(yet level of fight or flight),we have not CAUSED the Need for the mind to quickly recognize and ACT in Realtion to attack.

I am not speaking here of a conflict which happens due to people bumping into each other in a bar and going verbal,with body posturing which escaltes into the need for conflict,and which takes time to build up and Slowly raise the aprehension of actual contact,before it actually kicks off.
I am speaking of Generating a level of fear ,in a training environment,which is a surprise and which will get the Heart rate to jump up from the immediate call to action,over the joke of raising the heart rate through exercise to simulate the Heart rate due to surpise.
(that is sadly not the same)

There are ways to cause this Jump through surprise of attack in training,who cares if the mind knows going in that there will be training ,or if the mind knows after the fact that it was training,the goal is to get the mind and the student /trainee to recognize an attack and respond in a FAST ,Immediate reply.

I have talked of having new students being grabbed and threatened verbally while being pushed and pulled and being told to act.
This gets the surprise
This gets the Heart rate up
It works because it is unexpected
They are not told this may happen in a minute and then do it
It is done as they are on a break,just before class,in the middle of demonstrating a movement where they are rushed ,pinned to the wall and forced to act by doing something.

This can be done  by a group told to attack at a certain point known to them but not the victim.

It can be done with a bag in a box type drill
Where the victim is in the middle
A bag over their head with attackers positioned around them
Bag is pulled off and they must respond and act to the immediate threat or threats. around them  by dealing with close to far threats.

These are just a few ways to cause the need for immediate action through the use of surprise and fear.

The goal is to get them to not freeze,to not worry about what they do but to act Immmediately and do something.

Whether they go preemptive and strike at the recognition of threat of voiolence or whether they respond to a physical strike.

Get them to ACT,to flip the switch to action and go with controlled yet extreme violence of action to terminate the attack and get out.

Surprise needs to be on a regular basis,to allow the student to get used to and function in this surprise ,immediate need,role.

The more exposure to surprise threat,the more it BECOMES REGULAR training.

This the Reality of training which can and should be being done.
This is not accomplished by dictated ,known to the victim and attackers,type work,where attacker A will attack the victim in ths manner and or attacker B will jump in on a two count and attack in this manner and victim will do this technique to A and this to attacker B.

This is OK on a certain level,hypothetical scenarios which cause a set reaction but the victim will in all likely hood NEVER see that set up of attack outside class,just like traditional Karate or TKD set ups of if they do this you do that.
Attacker steps in and punches,we high block ,reverse punch and front kick.
Creates movement and application coordination but is unrealistic.

Principles Based training
Principles give us tools,but DO NOT Dictate SPECIFIC Applications.
Actions should be spontaneous, instantaneous, replies to immediate evolving circumstances not dictate Rote Responses that an attack,will happen with this and the follow up will be this and the next follow up will be this.

All we know in a Real attack is what we will do First ,our first move in this living game of chess.
Second, third movements/strikes,techniques ,and if needed more responses, only become known/doable from the response or input of the attacker/s.

my opinion
Sorry for the length I get carried away with this stuff a bit,lol.
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2010, 03:45:35 PM »

JimH-no problem on getting carried away i see you are refering to a few cqc groups-

i.e =drills on a student being smothered by a group
i.e = drills with hood being pulled off and attacked
both come from serious self defense groups which i will not name here-KM and Seals -opps sorry i forgot to leave them out of the post- ;D

anyhow constent review of the basic tactics gets the trainee to react quicker-

another thing that i think helps is to do a tactic-slow motion one step at a time-each time a part is completed the trainer discusses what is to be next and asks the trainee if they understand then do the next step-continue to the end- then do the complete
tactic using continuing motion (retsiv)

then restart and so it in a surpirize attack and review the response-

???  what u think-WW
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gematriot

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2010, 07:51:27 PM »

Quote
ok gem- waiting- thanks WW

Hi...
Concerning your question... I have been swamped these last weeks. I am reading some stuff which is relevant and will "get back to you soon"...
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whitewolf

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2010, 07:56:22 PM »

waiting gem- stay safe  ww
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Mesmeriser

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Re: Controlled aggression pad drills for muscle memory
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2010, 10:15:11 PM »

quick responce to the visualisation thing i see laced through the thread.

the whole the brain doesnt know the difference thing is used to support visualisation.
But works best on non physical tasks, imagining new responces and creating new patterns.
like being assertive,  how your gonna handle your sales meeting or your presentation at work.   youl visualise how youl walk your posture confidently etc, how youl feel relaxed and powerfull  how words come fluidly out of your mouth this kind of tihng. it can also really help in managing your emotional state as fear, nerves etc induced by these kind of things arent caused by real threats, its mostly psychological fear of being judged , social pressure etc  and stimulus responce patterns,   you can anchor new responces you can do a whole lot with this kind of stuff and alot of people good at prepping do these kind of things automaticly


for fighting theres obviously alot more coming to the table,  first of all it involves muscle memory actual physical skills etc, and a real threat.
But i do believe it will add

its been used succesfully for  people standing up to their mom in public or like facing your boss who emotionally abuses you at work . its not that it will actually magicly work,  the fear responce will still be induced but it can be to a lesser degree , everytitime they imagined it they aclimatised to the fear responce and replaced it with a diff emotion,  but its more about having  really focussed on the emotion you'd want in that situation the mindset and how you wanna act.

for example if you'd visualise the fight you'd focus on mentally flipping the switch beingproactive and fullon agressive and just unleashiung on the guy. doesnt mean you wont still freeze,  but at least you have focussed on a set of responces witch is alot better then being completely in reaction. another thing with visualisation is it works best when youve experienced the situation in these kind of situations, like the guy imagining the fear responce induced by his abusive boss has been there so hes recreating  that but adding a diff responce.   if youve never been in a real fight and imagine what it would be like that complicates it even more


just a quick 2cent rant before i go to  bed

later
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