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Author Topic: Pangamut/panantukan question  (Read 5752 times)

Mesmeriser

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Pangamut/panantukan question
« on: March 10, 2010, 06:19:18 PM »

today we got shown what i believe was called the ''first 5 inside pangamut'' set or something
its 5 ways to block and simultaneously hit/palm,block and hit the ears   or parry and hit/palm etc,
it was on the inside of the arms against a straight punch. i tried looknig for the movie that showed the set but couldnt find it. ive been playing with it

my teacher keeps harping on how super powerfull it is to fullon hit the eardrums.
while it looks really cool it seems like a much better idea to just hit straight forward the nose or when doing the parry - the right arm or hammer to the jaw/neck.
it seems very hard to actual hit the eardrums fullon to me plus its a swing and takes longer.

We also practiced where we parry a straight punch with our right hand then your left hand comes under it with a palm or strikes. What im wondering is this really applicable,
 this whole pangamut thing and obviously ive only seen a little seems very counter intuitive, its alot like the sticks but then well you have sticks, how much of these kind of blocks could you actually use?

i also noticed with number 2, where you block with left then parry that arm with your right while attacking with the free left arm seems like a hella lotta  movementsto just block a hit, everytime i kept getting hit by his other arm before i could even get the hit in.

these complicated blockson the inside put alot of energy on only one arm and seem to make  you very vulnerable to the other arm.
Hey i know i might just be lacking understanding because i dont know alot about it yet, i just like learning and discussing these things i guess. It at least looks very cool

comments, insights?
cheers,
mes

« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 06:46:14 PM by Mesmeriser »
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Ashblaster

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2010, 02:16:03 PM »

It's important that once you have the motions down that you train them like entries and not just as counters, meaning you're crashing and entering into trapping/clinch range and not staying in boxing range trading moves.
At first it can seem as if you're wasting energy on one arm (a block, a pass and a pin on one arm?! just hit the face!), but it makes sense when you think in terms of breaking up your opponent's rhythm. Most striking systems have you work in a 4-count/beat rhythm, whereas Panantukan almost from the start has you working in triplets- the hope being that if you apply a triplet to a 4-count the triplet will disrupt the rhythm of the 4-count- putting you in a better (more comfortable for you/less for him) position to counter, than say stand-off or boxing range.




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Mesmeriser

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2010, 06:40:47 PM »

hmmm thats interesting, right now i jsut cant see it.
but the panatukan stuff is really new to me so i figure i jsut need some more time before i can really comment on it,im sure it has a plce in the right context but for now it doesnt make to much sense,   i think i just need some more context forst

i'l be revisiting these questions a while from now
thanks for your take on this,

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redcap

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2010, 06:37:30 AM »

The method you speak of for my style is simply unarmed 'Parry-Pat-Hit', the core three beat move that is Arnis. The same three beat move that is in the Doble and Redonda Siniwalli drills, in the knife moves and the empty hands. You parry, then pat check and then strike. Of course you can do it in one, you can keep going with more strikes in rapid succession but the drill you are learning is the basic set.

It works better against some strikes than others and sometimes it can have you up his nostrils before the second strike, depends on how fast and hard he is coming in and a stack of other things. Many schools focus so much on getting the drill slick the students tend to compensate and drill to achieve the perfect response rather than deal with the strike/s as they are right then and there.

That gunting to the fist by the elbow comers next, somethin I can't make work unless the puncher is slow on the retreaction and aims a foot short of my face, but that's just me.

Cupped palm slaps to the ears do work and are not swings but should be snappy slaps at the end of a straight punch. Keep in mind the strikes instructed tend to be the best to fit the sequence but once you are an official apprentice instructor or whatever the ranking is, you can work out your own endings.

I teach students to parry-pat and hit tPPPhe bag with a BRRRP Bap! sound. The first two strikes follow like a slurred note (muscial terminology) and the third strike can have a heard pause between the first two and the third. Works with sticks, stick and dagger, knife, and empty hands and is a basic skill we work.  Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2010, 09:24:51 AM »

Cadena being "chain" - Thats interesting...also called by many FMAs-
   Cadena de Baston  - "baston" being stick
   Cadena da Daga - "daga" being knife
   Cadena de Mano - "mano" being hand

Chain of the stick, chain of the knife, chain of the hand. But starting with just the cadena/chain? Only doing this? For many means a person misses vital training in these “before-and-after” areas and might miss the bigger connection progression with double sticks and espada y daga.

- All Striking (with footwork)
- All kicking (with footwork)
- All Blocking/passing/parry/deflecting (just called "blocking" for here to save space)
- Block and strike (2 beats)
- Block-strike (1 beat simultaneous)
- Strike-Block (1 beat, very advanced work)
- Block and pass, or block and deflect
- Block, pass and strike (the Chain study of begins here!)
- Block, pass, pin  (here is where Hubad begins!)
- Block pass, pin, strike (most all strikes can be done in the Hubad format)
- Block, pass, pin, strike, strike and strike (and kick)
- Kick boxing, but bare knuckle as possible as boxing gloves get in the way.
Each study above applies to the knife, the stick, the stick and knife and double sticks!

These make up the essential, stripped-down, core of FMA close quarter combat, the moves from simple to advanced sinawalis, etc. I did not learn these from any one FMA source, but from mano-mano, Sinawali Boxing and Silat through the years. After this time, the pieces came together. (Remy Presas was very interested in the “chain drills”).
Mano-mano!

Each above segment is a fun study of its own. Getting good at these always benefits other martial arts too as pieces are found everywhere. People who criticize FMA and some of these solo segment exercises as "dead" drills and so forth, are ignorant because they have not been properly trained in the total list. Many instructors, especially in the USA do not know the total list! For example, Hubad is just a small slice of the bigger picture.

Hock

 

redcap

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2010, 07:38:54 PM »

I have found US FMA schools tend to extrapolate every nth degree of variation and possibility whereas the Filipinos tend to leave it to the student to figure out. I suspect the real reason is the average FIlipino instructor can do, can show but can't 'teach' as such. One thing Inosanto was very good at was applying his western teaching skills (he was a school teacher originally) to dissecting the drills and moves and breaking them down into the bare variations.

My main instructor recognized this but preferred to let me discover the variations and extensions etc for myself. So, is this better or worse? From a martial ART standpoint I think it is imperative all the nuances and possibilities are explored and worked. From a MARTIAL art standpoint, the application in combat siude, then less is more.

So as an instructor a few years ago I sought to strip FMA down as much as possible to the essentials and instill those as rapidly as possible, then encourage the students who stay around (there is always a large rop off rate with any art) to go into things much more deeply. Kind of let them graduate high school quickly and then offer a tertiary degree for those who want it.

To this end I developed a prgram called 'RIP -Rapid Instructional Program'. At the end of a four hour seminar all could do redonda siniwalli drill, cadena mano and cadena solo baston drills and had that three beat sequence under some control. They understood the relationship between  weapons and empty hands. They had the core move but of course they were not adept, practised, skilled or much good... yet. Many would then practise and do more training with me because the method of training had given them enough to go away with they were pleased but not so much they had a false sense of any great ability.

I think you can study FMA for your life time and discover new subtleties and variations but in its simplest form it is basic, effective and quick to learn. Or should be, depends on the studio rent I guess...
Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2010, 08:49:14 PM »

I have found US FMA schools tend to extrapolate every nth degree of variation and possibility whereas the Filipinos tend to leave it to the student to figure out.

Yup, and I have wondered...such as with Remy...was the core problem an language issue?

Ernesto Presas graduated a college and seemed to have a more organized approach BUT, he could never settle in on his system. He changed it many times to the dismay of me and many students. Never-ending angles of attacks to try and capture something he still hasn't captured. They would finish a large, video series and he would watch and say, "it is wrong. We have to do it again." His people would moan. Most of those people are gone now.

I no longer know what he is teaching. I recognize bits and pieces.

Hock 

redcap

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 04:48:24 AM »

Modern Arnis, Arjuken Karate... what came after that? Ernesto was one for dabbling and devising. I believe in his later years Remy went fairly empty hands specific or did he still teach stick work?

My main instructor, Sam Corral, was also university educated but he had grown up playing with the street kids and knew the less 'arty' side of things. From his base I learnt more from the Presas schools, guys like Dieter Knuttel and Chris Traish, Vince Palumbo of Doce Pares and Nino Pilla of JKD-Kali as well as Richard Bustillo, Edgar Sulite and others. From the bits and pieces I liked I developed the program I teach today but while fairly simple, it is very technical in that we explore the 'chains', the links that exist between the hands and the weapons.

I found a lot of the stuff shown on videos and taught at seminars is great WOW factor but of little use in real bouts. Many of the disarms simply present themselves rather than one being able to specify "I will do a snake on the #1". Of course hours of working the disarm during flow drills and other activities lets it come out from the muscle motor memory when needed.

As Hock said, many criticise FMA drills but don't realise the skillsets being developed. Of course you need to make sure you don't find the perfect partner and merely 'drill to pefection' but all the stuff is in there.

Has anyone had one of those epiphany moments when the penny drops and you discover a 'truth'? It is one of the things that keep me whacking sticks.
Redcap


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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2010, 05:11:36 AM »

“I have found US FMA schools tend to extrapolate every nth degree of variation and possibility whereas the Filipinos tend to leave it to the student to figure out.”

Another piece of the Filipino conundrum is that many Filipino systems are organised compartmentally covering only one or a couple of aspects of how we would view an entire system.  When I first hooked up with Hock I was surprised how he organised all of his stick strikes.  At the time Hock was applying all of the striking drills to an 8-Angle system (as well as other formats, where as now he employs the clock system as a base).  When he demonstrated Abanico (fan strikes), he applied them to every angle.  Although the logical approach behind Hock’s method made perfect sense, I was to me still indoctrinated by a couple of different Filipino systems that I was studying and was still in that mentality of asking questions like, “Can you do that?”  Of course Hock being Hock, he just sad, “Sure, you can do anything you want to.”

Another first hand example of this happened to me when I first started to work on the doors.  I was working at a bar that had a Filipino guy working as a glass collector.  I got to know him gradually and asked him if he ever trained in any FMA systems back home.  At first he was a bit stand offish, but as he got to know me he expressed interest in training with me.  I met him after work and he had cut a couple of mop handles in half.  I was asking him things like, “Do you know Sumbrada?”  He in return was looking at me like I was an alien.  He explained to me that his family system was based on long range only.  He squared off with me and instructed me to attack him with single strikes to start our session.  I kind of went half assed as we didn’t have any protective gear on.  He said, “No, go full speed.”  I threw an angle one at him and he drops to one knee and smacked me in the shin…and yes, it did hurt!  The rest of the session kind of continued in this way for a couple of hours- I would feed him and he would attack me.  He couldn’t really teach, but it was a good experience just to take a few hard shots.  He wasn’t really going full speed, but it still hurt like hell.  I concluded the session by saying to him, “This is what they call defanging the snake.”  He replied by saying he had never heard that phrase.

Joe  


« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 05:17:57 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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Hock

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 06:46:30 AM »

Then of course....
we "seekers" have a propensity to "shamanize" martial arts instructors and the more esoteric the MA, the more shamanizing many do.

These FMA (and MA leaders) leaders are often not mentally sophisticated to organize a system to the "nth degree." They are just like normal people who build a back yard shed but cannot be a salesman at Loews, Ace Hardware or Home Depot.  Seekers tend to worship the shed builder and project upon that shed builder all kinds of traits they do not possess. You can find this problem in almost any martial art. It is the head leader's fault for not curbing this trait.

From a doctrine perpective, a system doctrine should not turn the instructors into shamen, for once done, the system's evolution suffers. Students become worshippers and replicators, not innovators. Evolution ends. Evolution should be encourged.

Hock


 
 

redcap

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 05:15:40 AM »

True words, Hock and Joe. I have asked numerous Filipino practitioners about 'hubad/hubud' and half giggle as in some dialects it means to get naked. As for sumbrada, abecedario and so on, same reaction Joe got. They know what they know and very few are able to teach it as well as western instructors, as far as instructional technique, organization etc goes. They can knock you seven ways to sunday but are unable to tell you what they did etc.

I have to confess I am impressed with Hock's organization of his material. I could see the military training style influence and relate to that. I also tend to use the clock now because people can grasp it quicker than remembering numbered angles. Otherwise I keep it to five strokes and let them work those. (forehand diagonal, forehand horizontal, backhand horizontal and
 diagonal and a straight thrust). Footwork starts with a V and goes to an X and the rest is practise by lots of doing at half speed and then finishing off full speed.

That list Hock posted a few posts back covers everything I can think of so I keep it as simple as I can as there is more than enough in all of that to keep them interested. The shed builder analogy is a good one. So many beginners think you have to slavishly emulate the shed builder. Mine told me I am not him and he is not me so we will never be the same so use what works for you.
Redcap
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Hock

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2010, 08:33:57 AM »

Yes, Hubub means "naked above the waist in tagalog." Its just an American way of pronouncing it but makes Filipinos chuckle. It is supossed to be - HubAd....like "who bad" not "who-bud."  (Who cares? Most people reading this don't! - Its a just Filipino thing)

We all frequenty, slightly mispronounce parts of each other's foreign languages.

Hootch

Kaliman33

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2010, 08:39:55 AM »

there are 7000+ islands ih the philiipines, so there are countless dialects. When grandmaster atillo is in i am always asking about terminology. Some right, some wrong. but we know what it is when said. for example GM Atillo says both strikes are called labtic's, no witic.

and another note, the term sumbrada means to shade. Guro Inosanto actually made up the 5 count sumbrada to be able to teach at  seminars. now when you hear sumbrada you think of counter for counter sparring. As far as Abecidario, i have herd this is many filipino styles and my understanding it means the ABC's of the system. si it starts beginner and advances.

Also remember the first point of the filipino martial arts is coordination. Other styles work on power, speed, flexibility, etc. but for kali you need coordination. Also there are so many variables in kali you need drills to cover them all and get the coordination quicker.

Marc
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redcap

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Re: Pangamut/panantukan question
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2010, 04:18:01 AM »

Buto in Tagalog means bone, in Visayan it means pussy. Sooooooo, here is a Manila trained Kano teaching classes in Cebu and he refers to breaking the 'buto' of his opponent. It took forever to get them back into serious training.
Redcap
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