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[mpbelzer]

Hi Everyone,

At my most recent training session with my Serrada Escirma instructor, he commented that we were just "clicking sticks" infront of each other when we started to do the sumbrada (counter for counter) drill at a fast pace.  This is the same criticism that Hock has made of the way most stick fighting is practiced at arms length rather than deeply commited.  As I heard this comment again i relly tried to analyze what he was sayiong and why that bad habit seems to crop up so quickly.  What I determined is that as the speed and power increases, there is a corresponding concern for the safety of our partner.  we naturally allow the stick to move out away from our partner so if there is a problem or a missed counter the end result will not be a smashed head, or a poked eye.  the worst that happens is usually a hand or shoulder whack.

What is the solution besides understanding the problem?  I think a soft stick and some goggles would be all you need to really concentrate on making solid contact with each strike.  The partners could simple "not block" at various times in the drill to see how strong or accurate the strike was.  I think that would do the trick.  any other ideas or comments?

Mike "He's that stick guy" Belzer

[Trembula]

I took my fraying rattan sticks and put some closed cell foam (held on with double sided tape on the inside and duct tape on the outside) on them. The ends I put extra padding on and they ended up about two inches in diameter - the intent was to make losing an eye pretty darn difficult to do. The padding becomes a little compacted in the "sweet" spot on the stick where most of the impact is made, but it's still better than getting hit with a plain stick.

Of course, the fear of the unpadded stick helps build speed and reaction, but for some training, padded sticks are the way to go.

Dan

[Professor]

Hi Everyone,

At my most recent training session with my Serrada Escirma instructor, he commented that we were just "clicking sticks" infront of each other when we started to do the sumbrada (counter for counter) drill at a fast pace.  This is the same criticism that Hock has made of the way most stick fighting is practiced at arms length rather than deeply commited.  As I heard this comment again i relly tried to analyze what he was sayiong and why that bad habit seems to crop up so quickly.  What I determined is that as the speed and power increases, there is a corresponding concern for the safety of our partner.  we naturally allow the stick to move out away from our partner so if there is a problem or a missed counter the end result will not be a smashed head, or a poked eye.  the worst that happens is usually a hand or shoulder whack.

What is the solution besides understanding the problem?  I think a soft stick and some goggles would be all you need to really concentrate on making solid contact with each strike.  The partners could simple "not block" at various times in the drill to see how strong or accurate the strike was.  I think that would do the trick.  any other ideas or comments?

Mike "He's that stick guy" Belzer

I started my stick training not worrying about getting hit when I didn't block.  I thought it was part of the training.   When I met Barnhart, we always hit each other when we F*&ked up....if you were stupid enough to not block, you needed the bruise to remind you to block there the next time.....I don't remember often getting hit on the same bruise twice.  Beside, neither of our wives were ever surprised and thought we deserved it.   

Padding leads to really bad habits, some worse than the injuries - I don't like it for adult training!!!   I like light gloves for the brittle bone on the hand, goggles if you're pushing it....but otherwise prefer to learn through bruising.....

Injuries over the years.....yep (taken and given).  Mark Lynn, Tom Barnhart and I have been know to injure each other when we play....Big boys suck it up and keep going.   Scars heal some training is priceless. 

Comment when Tom and I tested together in arnis (from the audience):  "Do they even like each other?".    Now that's a test!!!

YMMV.

[Kentbob]

Could someone explain to me exactly what sumbrada is?  I get the feeling that it is a combination of pre-arranged and free form drill.


Kent

[Kaliman33]

Check out my sumbarada dvd. we flow with real sticks and no padding, you dont want to hit each other every session cause you will rack yourself up, but you can make it more alive by lowering your stance, and moving around, adding half beats and stop hits and not following a pattern, we also use soft sticks and really go, it is a lot of fun but i perfer the real rattan, i will teach some at the camp in dallas

see: http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product168.html


Marc halleck

[pmh1nic]

I'm constantly telling my students to aim and reach for the head (with control) during our single stick attack and defense drills. I think many students, fearing they will actually hitting their partner, shorten the strike which cheats the defender because they don't get a legitmate "look" at what a real attack will look like. They end up defending against an attack which in reality would not have been a legitmate attack and no real need to move or raise the stick in order to avoid the attackers stick.

Sometimes you just need to slow them down so the attacker can focus on hitting the target without fear of doing damage and the defender gets a realistic look (as far as distancing and angles are concerned)  at an attack and the proper angle and distancing for defending.

[mpbelzer]

Hi Phh1nic,
You said it very well.  I am looking forward to seeing Marc's Sumbrada DVD, which will show the basic "counter for counter" movements plus most of the "added extras" including fakes, multiple hits, disarms etc.

Mike

[kamagong]

Hey Marc!  I just ordered your DVD on sumbrada, and if it is anything like the silat vids, it will be great!  I have always heard and seen other people playing with fakes, 1/2 beat strikes, etc., in sumbrada, but I have not had anyone show exactly how to put them in.  Looking forward to getting it!

Now, back to the getting hit subject.  My first introduction to the Stick arts was from a crazy Marine (those words should always go together ).  My first lesson consisted of, "Okay, here is your numbering system, footwork system, and three basic blocks.  Now, put this helmet and these hockey gloves on and lets spar."  We were in a hay field on a farm, and I got the snot beat out of me, but I got some good shots in too.  I was hooked!  Here it is seven years later, and I am still going.  Taken a lot of hits too in training and sparring. 

The motto that I like is, "If you like your buddy, you hit your buddy!"  We are supposed to be preparing each other for combat, and the tendency is to pull shots or aim at the stick instead of the persons head.  We do this because we don't want to hurt our friends, and that is a natural tendency.  But, if you don't give your friend a realistic reaction, you are not preparing them for the real world. 

One way you can tell without pulling the stick away in mid strike as someone is hitting at you, is to start blocking way out away from your body for a few shots.  If your partner begins swinging wider to hit your stick, then they are aiming at your stick.  If they are aiming at your head, then they will still hit your stick, but it will be a bit weaker block on your half.

[Professor]

Now, back to the getting hit subject.  My first introduction to the Stick arts was from a crazy Marine (those words should always go together ).  My first lesson consisted of, "Okay, here is your numbering system, footwork system, and three basic blocks.  Now, put this helmet and these hockey gloves on and lets spar."  We were in a hay field on a farm, and I got the snot beat out of me, but I got some good shots in too.  I was hooked!  Here it is seven years later, and I am still going.  Taken a lot of hits too in training and sparring. 

Rawhide [marine] can tell you a similar story.......

[Trembula]

Crazy+Marine is redundant. Crazy is implied when one is referring to Marines... 

- Dan

[Rawhide]

Yep!   Thanks Professor!

I lOVE to tell that story.

When I first started training with Hock several years ago I started in the Filipino Combatives and was desperate to learn the ins and outs of not only the drills and skills but the fighting (I LOVE fighting!)  So I was able to hook up Jeff Allen and he put me throught my paces with a couple of drills and said the next time we'd do some basic sparring.  Little did I know what was to be!

He got me all hooked up in Lacrosse gloves and helmet put a stick in my hand and proceeded to drive me around the room - ringing my helmet continuously or #8s and 9s to the legs.  Afterwards I was bruised & battered but had a HUGE smile on my face.  THATS what I was looking for!! Yes Indeed!  Thanks to Professor I have been certifiable ever since (or was that from the Corps?)  Can never tell...

[kamagong]

LOL Rawhide!!  Great to know that there are others who got their intro into the FMA/CQC like this.  It definately gives you a different perspective on stickfighting and combat as well.  After me and my Marine buddy started traveling around to different states and schools (There were no schools teaching good FMA in our end of Kentucky at that time), we got looked at like we were nuts because we were the two you could hear hitting sticks over everybody else, we were doing sumbrada full speed and power when the other guys were tip tapping it.  I think we were called "Those crazy hillbillys" back then a lot.  The instructors liked us though. 

[Kentbob]

LOL Rawhide!!  Great to know that there are others who got their intro into the FMA/CQC like this.  It definately gives you a different perspective on stickfighting and combat as well.  After me and my Marine buddy started traveling around to different states and schools (There were no schools teaching good FMA in our end of Kentucky at that time), we got looked at like we were nuts because we were the two you could hear hitting sticks over everybody else, we were doing sumbrada full speed and power when the other guys were tip tapping it.  I think we were called "Those crazy hillbillys" back then a lot.  The instructors liked us though. 

    It has been hell on wheels trying to find someone who wants to really hit the sticks like this.  Finally I found someone, I had to come all the way to Iraq, if you can believe that.  I still have bruised knuckles from the experience.  Lacrosse and hockey gloves are hard to come by over here.  I have to use my last two knuckles to knock on the door.  Good training, though, and no permanent injury.


Kent

[arnold]

ah yes, I do remember the test with the professor, it was long and horrible, and you would have thought we hated each other. I think it got to the point where we had to help the other to their feet, as after 3 hours and 100 plus times to the ground ( floor, crappy indoor carpeting on concrete, one has a tendency to slow down some ) Even though I was only 40 at the time, it still was a very physical experience.
Word to the wise, do not let the professors nice guy demeanor fool you, he will give you no quarter, no break, no nothin. On second thought, either would I!