Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Heath]

I am moving the  Airsoft information taken from another post so not to hijack the other thread. Feel free to post more info / questions when needed.
It all started when

 Lance_Larsen said:
As the first page says, intros first.  Hmm... where do I start? I've taken several of Hock's seminars, I've spent a lot of time on empty handed fighting and knife fighting.  And I've spent a lot of time on concealed carry and using a handgun.  I've done a lot of training with Airsoft guns, and I have learned a lot from it.  I think that what you get out of something is directly proportional to what you put into it.  I've been using Airsoft guns for about 6 or 7 years now--about 4 years of really trying to get the most out of them as training tools.  I've been in target shooting competitions, I've done some IDPA, and spent my fair share of time at the range.  I learned that it doesn't matter how much brass is on the floor, you don't get better by just pulling the trigger over and over.  Good quality training makes a huge difference.

I like airsoft pistol for cheap force-on-force exercises.....but, people are still much too willing to take chances that they wouldn't take in real life.

I'll lay my cards on the table here and now--I'm a big proponent of Airsoft as a training tool.  There just is nothing like having a real human opponent who wants to shoot you just as bad as you want to shoot him.  If you find that people are taking chances with Airsoft guns that they wouldn't take in real life, then you need to upgrade your equipment.  I use an Airsoft handgun that shoots 350 FPS, and it draws blood at close range.  Perhaps moving up to an Airsoft gun with more power would put things in a more realistic perspective.  The more it hurts, the less likely someone is to take a risk, and that is what makes it realistic.

You can buy a gas gun that will cycle like a real firearm for $120 direct from Japan, and use Green Gas and .25g BB's in it and get really good performance for a very reasonable amount of money.  When you get into the 300-400 FPS range Airsoft changes from a toy into a tool.  If your only experience with Airsoft is a $20 spring gun then you really have no idea what Airsoft has to offer.  We civilians have limited options, so we have to make the best of what is available to us.  Statistics show that handgun engagements are typically fought at conversation distance, and at that distance Airsoft excels.

I've used most of the tools mentioned, and they all have their good points and shortcomings.  I think the best thing to do is to get as much out of each as you can, and make an effort to realize the weaknesses of the tools you are using.  Then try to make up for those weaknesses with whatever other tools you have available.

As highly as I regard Airsoft, I realize that it is just another tool with it's own set of limitations.  But it also has a lot to offer.  We do the whole enchilada--concealed handgun vs. concealed handgun, concealed knife vs. concealed handgun, fights that become ground fights that suddenly turn into gun fights, multiple opponents with and without weapons vs. a single concealed carry guy who must transition back and forth between lethal and non-lethal force,, the list is endless.  If you aren't getting as much out of Airsoft as you would like, talk to me, perhaps I can be of assistance.

Huevon :
Lance,

  My experience with Airsoft has only begun this year in training. I have used other sim training but hearing beeps really doesnt keep you on your toes. Paintball is the only time i really didnt want to get hit at close range and it kept me on my toes..who do you buy the Airsoft from? Can you tell me what are choice weapons for you? Price ranges? Sorry. you offered for us to pick your brain so i am going to be asking questions about Airsoft..i see many cheaply made ones that would be a start but i have not purchased (yet) an airsoft...give me your advice..thanks

De_Professor :
Got one, love it (1911).....it's great for indoor room clearing and backyard practice...If I could only get extra mags....It would be a very useful tool....

Lance_Larson :

No problem at all!  I'm always happy to help someone out with Airsoft for training.

If you want to do handgun training then you should expect to pay up to $150 for a decent gun (you may get one for $120 if you look around.)  You need a gas gun that will cycle like a real firearm, stay open on the last round, then you put in a new mag (with BB's and gas) and drop the slide and continue just like you would with a real gun.

The brand I usually recommend is KSC.  I like KSC guns because one of the biggest problems with gas guns is that a cheap one will have mags that eventually leak.  Leaky mags suck.  KSC makes solid guns and mags that don't leak gas.  I'd suggest you buy them direct from Japan, since it will be a lot cheaper than anywhere locally.  I've had pretty good luck with these two places:

  http://www.dentrinityshop.com/index_ie.jsp

  http://www.wgcshop.com/

There is always a chance your gun won't get through customs, but these guys sell a lot of guns and they don't usually run into problems.  I've bought lots of guns through them and never had a problem, and my friends have done fine also.  The only problems I've heard about involve enormous orders (1000+ guns).

You can shop around in the U.S., but my advice is to avoid eBay.  We've had some problems with eBay guns.  You never know what they have done to them before you get them.

Some places will say "KSC Japan" and "KSC Korea" or some other place.  Pay the extra 10 or 20 bucks and get "KSC Japan".  They make cheap knock-offs in other countries, but they are never the same quality, always get the Japanese version and you won't be disappointed.

You'll want to use Green Gas in your gun.  That will get a factory gun shooting roughly 300 FPS+ at room temperature.  When it's below about 40 degrees F you will get less performance.  On hot summer days you'll get better performance.  Shoot .25g BB's of a decent quality (we usually use Excel brand).  They sell mini red paintballs, but they make a mess of the gun--stick with hard plastic.

Always wear a full face mask, especially at close quarters.  I've shot people's teeth out with a factory rifle at 25 yards.  These are not toys.

I try to get something as close to what I carry as possible.  And get a couple spare mags for practicing mag changes.

Tokyo Marui makes the best AEG rifles, and some of the guys in my circle have bought their gas handguns.  They make decent stuff, but I'm still more sold on KSC.  KSC has an excellent line of Glocks.  Their Glock 18 is fun, but the Hop-Up on it (the "Hop-Up" puts a back-spin on the BB to give it more range) tends to be permanently adjusted too high.  I think if you went with a semi-auto only Glock from KSC you would be quite satisfied with it.  A metal slide is a nice upgrade.  The plastic slides used to break fairly often with Green Gas, but they have reinforced them recently so they stand up to the higher power gas now.

They have a lower power gas, but it doesn't cycle the gun as well, and they make a Red Gas which will blow your gun apart after a few rounds and will give you more velocity than you would want even at a good distance.  We always use Green Gas, and I still have a mark on my arm from a hit I got almost a year ago.  You'll know when you get hit.

If you are fighting at close range I highly recommend a pair of Hellstorm Navigunner gloves from Blackhawk Industries (www.blackhawkindustries.com).  They are kind of rubbery on the backs of the fingers, which seems to absorb BB impacts very well.  We had one guy with no gloves get hit at point blank range on the nail bed and it turned his nail black for 2 months.  Another guy was wearing the gloves mentioned above and took a point blank hit to the knuckle (that REALLY hurts) and it barely left a mark.  It's counter-productive to  seriously hurt yourself while learning to defend yourself.

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask.  I've been at this for a while and I know most of the pitfalls.  Used correctly I think you'll find it an excellent tool.

-Lance

www.desmoinesairsoft.com
Check the website to see all the guys and their guns (they look just like the real thing).  We have a discussion forum also.  We're always happy to help people out.

Oh, I almost forgot, I run an audio show formatted kind of like a talk radio show where my co-host and I talk about all kinds of Airsoft stuff.  It's just packed with information, and you can download a show free and listen to it any time you like on an MP3 player.  Or just listen to it on your PC.  We update the show whenever we get the time (which varies).  But it does have a lot of useful information in it.  The website for the show is:  www.airsoftradio.com

Huevon:

Thanks for the info!  I will check that stuff out when i get home. In class, we use plasic pellets ( balls). I havent used BB's. I know that pain makes a person decide things more quickly..hahaha Are there any pellets that you would recommend? Will those guns tear apart the plastic pellets. I know that new students will shun BB's..

  Also, i will download your talks online and listen to a couple..but i hate to say that will probably bring more questions..hahaha

Lance_LarsonBring the questions on!  I can't think of a better place to spread this kind of information.  I've been kind of working in a vacuum and not sharing a lot of the stuff I've learned.  I like Hock's system all around, so it's nice to be adding a little instead of just soaking it all in like a sponge.

I'm not sure what kind of plastic pellets you are referring to, if you have a web link I'd like to take a look at them.  What we use are solid hard plastic BB's, and if you fire them point blank at metal they will fragment into about 8 little pieces.  One time we had a guy take cover behind a metal screen like you would have in a screen door.  One of the guys on my team shot right through the metal screen and hit him in the head.  As I said before, these are not toys.

I hate to hijack the subject here, maybe the moderator can move this discussion to a different thread so we don't gum up a good conversation on IDPA.

Huevon
these are the plastic pellets that i am talking about...and i also sent a message to you Lance to not hijack this thread anymore..also, if we move the topic of Airsoft to a fresh topic i will delete all my posts from this one...

[Lance_Larsen]

Cool!  Thanks for moving the thread.  If you have a question about using Airsoft guns as a training tool, then this is the place to ask it.

[Lance_Larsen]

Ah, it was the "Pellet" moniker that threw me.  Those are spherical projectiles, so I would refer to them as "BB's" instead of "Pellets".  A bit of a mix-up in what Hock calls the "tribal language" (or something to that effect).  I thought you had stumbled across something I had never seen before.

Those are really cheap and light Airsoft BB's.  They really shouldn't be used in anything but a spring gun since they are not only too light, but they also tend not to be as spherical.  They jam up higher quality guns quite frequently.  They are really only made to be used in $20 spring guns.

We use the same size BB's, but they are always at least .20 grams in weight (we prefer .25 gram BB's since they go through brush outdoors a little better and are slightly less affected by wind.)  They are much more uniform in shape, and tend to have their mold marks completely smoothed out.  If you ever had a couple of each in one hand you would see what I mean quite easily.

To put all this into the proper perspective, imagine shooting a spring gun (one shot every time you cock it) with .12 gram BB's at under 100 FPS, and compare that to a semi automatic or fully automatic firearm shooting .20 gram BB's at 400 FPS (or .25's at 350 FPS).

A lot of people balk at the price, but if you price Simmunition equipment you'll see just how cheap Airsoft is.  Unless you have all our tax money in your training budget, it's really the only game in town.

[Lance_Larsen]

Since we are no longer hogging the IDPA section, I just have to make a small comment [alright--it started small anyway] on a post in that thread.  It said (partly): 'For those trying to reduce their reaction time for an IDPA "buzzer" type start signal, here is a useful online tool for solo practice...'  I know a lot of people don't give Airsoft any credence because in Airsoft you don't shoot "real guns" with a big blast, recoil, etc.  So I understand that I'm already starting with zero credibility in some of your minds.  But that statement is a perfect example of how easily the mentality of our training tools slips into our subconcious.

Now read this twice so you don't mis-quote me.  I know this is will be a hot issue, but sometimes we have to stir things up a bit to really learn how to get the most out of the training tools we have available (just look at Hock, he certainly stirs things up--and for the better).  When you read the quote above you can see where we get into the game mentality using IDPA.  It happens in Airsoft also, and it should be avoided in either.  The fundamental problem here is that many times in IDPA you are running against a clock instead of a living, breathing, thinking human who is intent on hurting you.  It gives you a completely different mental outlook when you go to the zoo and the tiger is out of the cage.  So here is what you need to read twice and seriously consider: It's all fine to reduce reaction time--that's a fine goal, but don't let that give you a false sense of security--there will be incoming rounds to deal with!  Although that would seem to have nothing to do with what was stated, we all know that at least partly that was what was implied.  To make things worse, we don't like that idea, and it makes us feel all squeamish to even consider it.  But it doesn't matter how fast you draw and shoot, and how accurately you hit, there will be incoming shots that you will have to deal with both mentally and physically.  If our goal is to learn how better to handle real life combat, then there is just no getting around this fact.  I have simulated this so many times and under so many different conditions that there is little doubt in my mind that this is just a given.  When you grapple with this, the game changes to "How can I get a good solid shot into my opponent, and at the same time make it difficult for my opponent to get a solid shot into me?"

I fully realize that there are many people who have been shooting IDPA for years who completely understand this, and they would rightly argue that this is why you move for cover, etc.  So don't even argue that point with me.  But there are people who think that if they can just get one quick magic shot at the "target" (not a human being, right?) then the problem will just suddenly go away.  We know these people exist, we have all seen them, and at one time or another we have all probably been them.  Be honest with yourself, somewhere deep down inside you are really hoping that by some miracle there won't be any rounds coming back at you.  Sure, you tell yourself that you can just move for cover.  But in the real world we don't always have cover that we can move to.  And even when we do have cover, it just works differently when we are under fire.  So then what do we do?  I have learned a response to the problem, but how will you tackle it?

It is things like this that we can learn from Airsoft that we just can't learn from any other commonly available tool.  Using Airsoft guns we can set up a situation where two people draw from concealment and actually shoot at each other, and then we can diagnose what happened after the fact.  We can use video and witnesses from multiple perspectives to piece back together exactly what happened.  Then we can analyze it, change some variables, and simulate it all over again.  That changes the training from a repetition drill into an actual learning process.  When we do this we find that different opponents under identical situations offer completely novel challenges.  A gun fight begins to be more akin to a hand to hand sparring match than a target shoot.  Inevitably after each round people will shift some clothing around and find out where they were hit and say things like "Wow!  That really would have done the job."  It makes a mental connection between cause and effect, and it creates a feedback loop so that you can actually begin the learning process.

Both Airsoft and IDPA are tools, good tools, and we have to identify the strengths and weaknesses of each.  But we have to be careful not to let the limitations of our training tools dictate how we respond to real world problems.

So, with that said (whew!), should we be thinking as stated "'For those trying to reduce their reaction time for an IDPA "buzzer" type start signal...", where the goal is to reduce our reaction time for a buzzer, or should our goal be to learn to shoot more rapidly and also not to forget what is going to happen next in real combat?  I don't blame the person who posted this because it is a way of thinking that we all get trapped in from time to time.  In fact, I'm glad he posted it because it started a thinking process for me, and it was a good starting point for this line of thought.

Keep it real.

-Lance

[Trembula]

Lance:

Good post... I agree with you and airsoft is the "consumer level" simunition to allow you to test your reaction time against a real, live person. Referring back to my post on the IDPA thread... there are video trainers which show visual cues of weapons presentations (shoot / don't shoot & draw / don't draw) and it would be nice to have something like that in a similar format as the "buzzer" webpage.

So long as we realize the limitations of everything we do, I think that we can benefit from quite a few "sportive" or "game" type activities. If someone can pick a fraction of a second on their quick draw, then that helps them move ahead of their opponent (who probably hasn't practiced diligently presenting the weapon) or catch up if the are "behind the OODA loop".

In the end, everyone ought to do a little of everything... shoot a little airsoft, do a little IDPA and three gun, disect the after-actions of real life gunfights for lessons learned, practice retention/disarms and quick draws/slinging. Each is a piece of the gunfighting pie.

Dan

[Heath]

  To add on the "being fired at" I had a buddy that was all "gung ho" telling me that he shot since he was 10 and a crack shot..etc..I told him that when you really get fired at, you tend to lose focus...so then the following..yeah yeah..whatever...i know what i am doing conversation started. Well, we didnt have airsoft, so we got paintball guns ( this was his first time ) and to make a long story short, i asked him..why were you hiding so much and not moving around..his response..THOSE THINGS HURT...Some people always fire and never practice with paintball or airsoft or something that can hurt if you dont move quick enough..If or when that time happens that you need to move, wouldnt it be a plus to have practiced before hand? Not matter what the medium is..be it a paintball or airsoft..

I am now saving up for a airsoft pistol...hehehe

[Lance_Larsen]

If I may interject a little bias here...  Paintball is OK, but you have a tendency to lob rounds in at the target even at fairly short distances, whereas Airsoft rounds have a much flatter trajectory.  Yet another reason I prefer Airsoft (I've done both.)

But you are correct.  It's always good to practice everything before you actually need to do it.

And now for my daily rant:  It drives me crazy to see people simulating self defense with any type of simulator and just standing there like a tree with roots.  That's what happens when people spend lots of time at the range (or on a FATS).  That's one of the most important things I teach people.  You move to cover.  If there is no cover to move to then you move so you become a harder target to hit, and also to line up your opponents to give yourself an advantage and your opponents a disadvantage.  People who always use a FATS or just target shoot never think of this.  And even people who do IDPA sometimes don't move enough, or don't understand why they are moving.  They may move to cover, and they may even move to more cover, but there is no planning in it--(why am I moving there, is it a better place?  Am I moving because the situation has changed?  Am I shooting and moving because there is no cover?  Am I moving to line up my opponents?  Am I moving because my opponents are trying to surround me?).  It all makes sense when someone is shooting back at you.