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Author Topic: Jim Wagner of Black Belt, Training  (Read 68409 times)

Yuriy

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Jim Wagner of Black Belt, Training
« on: April 10, 2005, 10:58:43 AM »

What do you friends think about Jim Wagner Reality Based Martial Arts?

Budo/Black Belt magazine has published a lot of his articles last couple of years.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 04:46:01 PM by Hock »
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 09:13:15 PM »

Read the Wagner 13 Questions...
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4049.0.html



Product Description
Taught by Sgt. Jim Wagner, creator of the Reality Based Personal Protection system. A police officer

with over 13 years experience in SWAT, Corrections, Special Forces  [/u]
(no SWAT either by the way)

>:(, and the Military, Wagner has taught hundreds of police courses world-wide, including Brazil, Argentina, Israel, FBI and CIA. This video will teach you, step by step, everything you ever wanted to know about combat with a knife, and other ...." (all as an employee through HSS)

Out

Joe
 :o

(complete product description: Product Description -
Taught by Sgt. Jim Wagner, creator of the Reality Based Personal Protection system. A police officer with over 13 years experience in SWAT, Corrections, Special Forces, and the Military, Wagner has taught hundreds of police courses world-wide, including Brazil, Argentina, Israel, FBI and CIA. This video will teach you, step by step, everything you ever wanted to know about combat with a knife, and other edged weapons. The only way you're going to know how to defend against these grizzly weapons is to become and expert yourself, and that's what you will learn in this DVD. You will learn the 12 angles of attack and how to counter them, speed and reaction drills, prison yard methods, and more important, transition to your sidearm during a suprise knife attack. You'll lean how to not get SHANKED. Approx. 93 mins. )
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 09:18:41 PM by Hock »
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chfroehlich

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 02:51:01 AM »

On Sergeant Jim's HP:

On 26 January 2006, by order of Governor Arnold Swartzenegger, Jim Wagner was appointed in the California State Military Reserve (CA SMR), State Order 6-026-R-03 to the rank of Specialist (SPC/E4) assigned to the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Support Brigade with the duty assignment of Physical Security NCO with the Provost Marshal Office (Military Police) where he serves to this day. Then in March Jim Wagner was awarded the rank of sergeant (SGT/E5) after successful completion of Basic Orientation Course at Camp Parks, California.

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 08:16:58 AM »

Actually Wagner joined the only reserve unit that does not and CANNOT go to war. Odd choice for such counter-terrorism expert and tactical genius.

I wonder though, if he was called up to go to Afghanistan, would he go?  Would he serve for his country and put his life on the line?  I wonder.  Interestingly, he ran an ad in a French magazine with a photo of him, alone, with a scarf, by a Humvee where the caption read, "Here is Jim Wagner training U.S. Army troops on their way to Afghanistan."  he is just standing there alone. No troops? With a...scarf around his neck. In America.

What's even more interesting is that ad has never ran stateside.

Out

Joe





« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 10:04:42 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 08:21:53 AM »

I wonder when the Gov Arnold Schwarzenegger paper will make it to a PDF on JWs bio?
The ranking will of course be blurred out,for security reasons.

MA community?
It is about 15-20 years since Joe Lewis,Master of Karate not boxer,attempted to head and require  a board of examiners to certify Instructors and schools.

Luckily it never took hold,as said,who was to decide what and or who was legit and what groups would get hold and keep others out.
(had there been a board,would Bruce Lee have been allowed to open a school?)

It is a shame that people can BS their way to the top with minimal training and experience but people do this everyday in the World of Business,Education other skills required jobs.

This is why sites like Hocks that allow people to discuss the Good and Bad of Instructors and Arts is good,it is sort of a self policing and is readable by the public IF they ever BOTHERED to run a search.

Again JW teaches BASIC applications which are usable,it is his EXAGERATED Self Promotion which  upsets most.
As the Exagerations are disinformation which he uses to sell what he teaches to the public through Ads and Mags.

You think you are getting a legit Instructor who has Truely Been there and done that.

If you had a Man/woman who claimed to have worked at Harvard,you might think wow,what credentials,if you paid money to learn something from them and then found out what they meant by worked at was they were a Janitor not a teacher would you be upset?
Some might say well the information given was basically correct
but
The way it was sold should be questioned.

If you helped an Old Person or Blind Person cross the road,would you claim you saved them from being struck by a car
or
If you gave a bum a quarter whould you say you rescued/saved  a Family from poverty?

Exagerations,similar to the stuff JW comes up with, should upset the legit.

Every thing he does,is Done to move himsef to another area of self promotion period.

Just like Joining the California State Military Reserve.
Why was it done?
To me ,it was done because the advancement of the law against phonies milking the public with claims of STOLEN VALOR.
Once people began to crack down on these people his appearances in BDU's and in combat or Police Gear stopped.
As soon as he Joined the CSMR he was back on the front page of Black Belt in a Legit uniform,which so Happens to be the same uniform as the Military just with differnet patches,which required a Magnifying glass to see what they were,then one would have had to look up the patches and realize they were not US Military Official.
Now he CANNOT be charged with Impersonation of a Police Officer or a member of the Military.

He now has documentation as an NCO,as a Provost Marshall/MP and is recognized by the Gov as a PHYSICAL SECURTITY Specialist.
This is good for alot of press/articles.

Look at how he worked the radio room of a central base that Gov Schwarzenegger visited during a recent rash of Fires,it became a story of his and the Govs lives being intertwined.
LOL
PLEASE

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Hock

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 04:14:50 PM »

Folks, this came in on another thread and I moved it here to try to condense, and remove all these hate-mail, Wagner threads and comments (jeez). - Hock


Hello,
My name is Elad F., I hope you do not mind me posting what I am about to post and specifically in this military category. I am a current serving member of one of the Israeli government security divisions and a former member of the Israeli special forces.

We have a problem in the Israeli martial arts community now as well with instructors making false claims about their backgrounds and systems, the most publicly well known Israeli instructor making false claims about himself, his background, and his system at the moment is Moni Aizik. But, I wanted to make a comment about another point of Mr. Jim Wagner's advertising that is an issue to us.

He claims that he instructed the Israeli Special Forces units and the Israeli police.

Both of those claims are also false. Through Avi Nardia he had a seminar arranged to teach at civilian section of Wingate. Wagner claimed that the seminar was for special forces members, but it was open to the public, and even teenagers attended. There could have been former or current IDF special unit members there, but it was not an official seminar for the army.

Also, I know that he advertises that he trained the Israeli police. He was granted an invitation for a tour of BASACAM, the Israeli police operational training center, and he was there for a tour. But he never taught there.

I would be interested in hearing him comment on this as well.

Thank you.

Elad.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 07:18:34 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2008, 01:51:37 PM »

Let's see:
The letter from Gov schwarzenegger says that JW is to be asigned as a provost marshall,security specialist for a Transport unit of the CSMR.

A guard for trucks used in a state emergency,at a job that asks for one,8 hour, day a month time commitment,learning your job?
Learning to be a Guard for a Transport unit.

Can anyone say coffee and donut day.

JW says that during the fires in CA he was manning the radio at the Central Headquarters when Arnold Schwarzenneger came by,he must have meant he was watching the Radio/Commo Trucks,lol.

Again,watch how many articles and qualifications come from this unit membership.
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arsenalgunna

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 03:21:09 PM »

I just got done reading Wagner's response.  Took damn near 20 minutes.  Hock wasn't kidding about the self-aggrandisement.  For a guy that supposedly used to work for a greeting card company, I would think he could keep it short and sweet.
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2008, 04:07:21 PM »

Mr Wagner,
I have defended your art on this and other forums as the materials being usable and doable,though very basic.

I believe that you exaggerate your life for the sale of your course.

You quoted me as saying the following about you:
"3 months riding on a plane makes someone an anti terrorist  
specialist, lol."

Well Sir,I know people who were the First Sky Marshalls and Sky Marshalls since inception through to Air Marshalls.

Before 9/11 the sky/air Marshall program was on the tail end ,almost extinct.
They were ANTI HIJACKERS and still are.

It seems Anti Terror specialists has become the Big Name to throw out like Special Operations,(which you know about since you titled your new books and tapes on it)

Are the screeners who get near minimum wage at the airports Anti Terror specialists?
Yes they are.

I like the your story of being a SGT in the CSMR, the one day a month program,as being part of Homeland Security and the reason you are entitleds to wear and claim some military identity.


In 2003 ,your first class in NYC you said you had been an NCO in the US Army in an Infantry Unit and had seen how your previous martial arts training had NOT prepared you


for the Fights you had to Brake Up Between YOUR Men.
(so you claimed Military rank not awarded you prior to CSMR)

You also claimed to be a JKD Instructor under Dan Inosanto and Training partner to Paul Vunak.
How true is that.


You claim you left the US Army because of a foul up in your attempt to get into the Warrant Officer Flight Training Program. It was wait 6 months to go to the program or your recruiter told you you could do Basic and AIT then go to the program,right?

Why did you not go in the army as a reservist and do Basic and AITDid you sign a CONTRACT with the Government for X number of years? If so did that contract say you would be released to the WOFTP after AIT? An Enlisted person can go to the WOFTP No?
You were in 8 months and 12 days and said it took months to get it resolved?

The WOFTP is what (weeks, two months,then 6 weeks warrant officer school,then flight school.
Since you joined to get basic and AIT out of the way (AIT was not needed) and you had 6 months till the course went off,6 months plus 9 weeks is the Exact time you got out of the US Army,and you COULD HAVE gone to WOFTP anytime from then to 3 years you say.
Well why didn't you go to the WOFTP?

Something is Bogus in your story sir.

You exaggerate your life story and you profit from peoples misconceptions about your background.
If people knew you did 8 months in the Military,most of it trying to get out,would your military count.

If they knew you were a Reserve Police Officer and Reserve Homeland Security ,would they come to your classes. If they knew you did 3 months sitting in a seat as you say.would they come to your class.

As Said If you helped an old Lady acrodss the road it would be you saved her live in a traffic  incident.

You do not even see that your stories are exaggerated.

Your response in Blitz is a Book on your life,with you telling people well this is true because I did this and it counts for that. It counts for what it is not comitted to start and finish anything.
To use that which can benefit you most,period.

I am sure the joining of the CSMR was done when you came up with the idea of your Special Operations Books and Tapes,to Legally wear the uniform or truely be a phony of Stolen Valor.
(looks good in the books and Mags,wearing the uniform,sells alot)

I would also lie to know your qualifications with Mortars, M60s,and Heliborne operations that your background and experience helped the  MI Det of the 19th SF. Do you have qualifications above the Pilots,crew chief and the SF Jumpmasters and riggers?

It is all smoke and mirrors,something you must have learned sitting on a bunk looking out the window in the military watching the others break their butts. Hope that PRC 77 wasn't too heavy,lol.

How many Military  units CONTRACTED YOU for PAY to come and teach them?
How many did you send letters to for letters of appreciation in return.

Lets get real.

You may not be a Liar but you are quilty of misleading with exaggerated claims.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 06:44:04 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2008, 09:56:49 PM »

Quote from Jim wagners RBSD site:
Jim Wagner, the founder

"If you had a desire to learn how to sky dive or SCUBA dive for the first time, would you want to learn from someone who has never jumped from an airplane before or someone who only got their underwater experience from a swimming pool? Of course not, and yet most civilian self-defense instructors have never been in an actual life-and-death conflict, and are merely passing down information given to them from their instructors. Even if they have been in the proverbial “bar fight” in their past the question must be asked, “Have they been shot at, attacked with a knife, or looked into the eyes of a criminal or terrorist?”


Mr Wagner the above is from your site,correct?

You portray yourself in the Above as one of the few Instructors who has  been in real Life and Death conflicts.
You ask the potential student/Instructor/ Buyer if their Instructor has ever been shot at,attacked with a knife or looked into the eyes of a terrorist?

I ask Have YOU?
The Terrorist you say you think you spotted turned out not to be a terrorist at all,correct/
So how many terrorists have you looked into the eyes of?

How many times have you been shot at?
In 2003,In NYC,you said you HAD NEVER BEEN SHOT AT.

How many times have you been attacked by a knife weilding attacker?
Twice you said,one a man rolled over while on a bed and half lunged at you and the other was a surprise abdominal stab but you had a vest on,if I remember right.

I am an assistant Instructor and when I attended your course I ahd already been shot at Multiple times,I had been in a handful or just over knife attacks and I had looked into the eyes of several Terrorists arrested and found guilty in the first world trade center bombing.
When I looked into the terrorists eyes they looked like regular people to me.
The knife attacks were people trying to kill me on the street and not a person sleeping on a couch who rolled over with a blade when shaken.
The shots fired at me were also meant to kill me.

Is being shot at,in a few knife fights and looking into terrorists eyes the mark needed to be reached to be a REAL Martial Arts Instructor,like you?


You say would someone want to learn to jump from a plane from a person who has never jumped.
I ask would you want to learn to jump from a person with a few jumps or some one who has dedicated alife time to jumping.

In the world of experiences you my friend are the one with a few jumps and others a life time dedicated to jumping.

Your life of experiences fit more with an actor learning a role for an acting job.
I guess this fits the articles you used to write about trying a martial art for 3 months the move on to another as three months shows you the basics.

In 2003 you said you flew as an Air Marshall for 3 months WITHOUT INCIDENT,now you have terrorist captures under your belt.

The more time that goes by the more you did,must be one of those secrets clauses that you can only talk about a little at a time as the years pass.

I wonder why someone who put so much time around the Military over these years could not hack a few year enlistment?
I guess it was like saying you wanted to be a Warrant Officer,go right to the top with little bottom time exposure.
Now you travel around,act like the top dog,they believe your stories and maybe they will let you play with their toys.
Yep Better than humping that heavy ole PRC 77, better than testing your mental/physical make up at Ranger or Special Forces School.
Yep quitting because you really wanted to be a Helo pilot,but didn't realize you signed a contract to serve as an enlisted man,that is the mental and physical make up of a Warrior.

PS:
Your concept for Reality Based Schools is that they should have lights on Dimmers,Beds,Living rooms,cars,bars.
Well I have trained in those places in the late 60's to the 80's under men like Frank Ryan and Johnny Kuhl,so what is your NEW Contribution to the world of Real Combat arts?
The claim to the name RBSD?
I don't think so

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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 10:17:25 AM »

Mr Wagner,
On your site you say that you coined the phrase REALITY Based Officially in 2003.

In Black Belt Magazine Sept 1993, pg 88, there is an ad By a Mr McDougal and Mr Farrow
(Both Black Belt Mag contributors)

The Ad is For:
REALITY Personal Defense Techniques

The ad Reads:
Bring Life to Today's SCENARIO'S from Today's Headlines with
REALITY Personal Defense Techniques.

I have said Over and Over "REALITY" was Around In its term and concepts LONG Before You used it.
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arsenalgunna

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 02:37:35 PM »

I am also curious as to why a majority of his "certified instructors" in the US are either inactive or expired in regards to their teaching status.
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 08:51:24 PM »

LOL,
I was going to post on the Instructors last night then didn't.
In the US there are 72 Instructors listed with 23 still active,a large portion of those active are probably new instructors.

In the beginning there was NO renewal fee.
I do not know if there ever became one.

For the cost of instructorship you got the training and signed certificates for each phase.

As I was in one of the first classes we were told we would get a binder with full descriptions and diagrams of the work we covered in the classes as it would reduce the time needed to take notes.(No Binder for the course sylubus was ever sent)

We were told we would get video tapes of each segment of the training to keep the material fresh and reviewable, Never got any tapes except ones I purchased from him that he sells to the public and I Didn't even get an Instructor discount as they were for my use,lol.

When level 2 certification came around I did not attend as I felt I did not get what was promised in level one  and level two seemed to be Bogus.
A friend attended level two and said he wished he had not as it was a waste.

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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2008, 12:33:05 PM »

Credibility that should be the prime mover.
The problem is people will not run a search to find out anything before they drop their hard earned money.
I was an Early buyer of JWs stories and I forked out BIG BUCKS for a week of training.
There was no site telling me about the BS stories,there was nothing.

As I have said the materials were Usable and BASIC,materials found in most Karate/Martial arts schools without the tradition and time.

Had I know that the materials were not the product of research and used by Police and Military units and that the person selling them claiming to have been all these things ,done,tested and trained  did nothing but visited these dreams,then I would not have forked out my money.

I was not in need of a degree in Martial arts as in 2003 I had a 3rd degree in Hapkido and a 2nd degree in TaeKwondo and was still active,as now,in Hapkido, and other martial materials that cost A LOT Less.

If people are willing to pay for a phony(look up the meaning as JW fits it) to teach them made up junk from bits and pieces of varied arts through life then why not pay legit instructors who charge 1/2 to 1/3 the amount the phony charges.

They go with what they believe to be,as Hocks says,a Jack Bauer,who has ,they believe has been there done that.

People im general do not seem to care very much,because if they read reviews of certain instructors and the material they would not spend the money and these guys would be gone.

Does anyone believe that JW standing in a MET Police uniform worked with them on the street and Taught them ANYTHING other than his self defense.

Does anyone believe JW standing with guys with hoods on claiming to be GSG9 taught these guys anything but his self defense?
What could JW teach GSG9 members about shooting,sniping and entry or any other skill?
He was there to demo his material.

Do the US Marines, Delta members,SEALs or anyone else in the field need JW to teach them sniping and field craft or how to rig a Helo or employ weapons they use in combat?
If they do then they better get out of the killing business.

It is all smoke and Mirrors,a Con game of deception through mumbo jumbo and paper work to validate nothing but teaching basic self defense moves.

I am glad this forum is here and we are able to talk about the phonies and are able to be searched and found by those who at least do minimal research before they crap away their money.
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2008, 12:46:38 PM »

More Questions for Mr Wagner

Mr Wagner a question on your service as an Air Marshal:
quote from your site:
"At this time in American history there were only three official federal civilian counterterrorist teams in the United States: the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the U.S. Marshal Service SOG (Special Operations Group), and the U.S. Federal Air Marshal Service."

You claim to have been contracted by the Federal Government as a Counter Terrorism specialist,correct?
In relation to your above quote,do you claim to have been on the US Federal Air Marshal counter terror team,with similar training and responsibilities as the FBI HRT and the US Marshal Service SOG Teams?

In looking at all the requirements for the Air Marshal program:
They list the training at the New Mexico facility as being Mostly Police related training as Air Marshals are the on board POLICE of the skies.
The training at the Atlantic City Facility has to do with actions like shooting and controlling HIJACK Suspects.

NO WHERE does any of the training information claim to MAKE Air Marshals COUNTER Terrorism Specialists.

I would ask what teachings you obtained to Qualify you as a counter Terrorism Specialist but I am sure you will tell me that the Training is classified.

You tell stories of tracking a Middle Eastern Suspect  and of an incident at an airport in which a fellow agent claimed to be followed and YOU Called the Orange county police and a Female Officer responded and let the suspect go in 30 seconds.

After the suspect trailing your partner was spotted and suspicion raised why did you not call Air Port Security or the Air Marshal Uniform team to take the suspect for questioning?
Do you have training ,by the Federal Air Marshal program in detecting and determining Fraudulent Passports and ID?
What were your exact counter terrorism duties?
Where they:
Watch and report,intercept if just cause and turn over/call a higher authority?

Quote Jim Wagner site:
This refers to Jim Wagner:
"He was then assigned to the Los Angeles Field Office where he began to participate in Operation Enduring Freedom doing counterterrorism missions on the ground and in the air."

DOD (Department of Defense) Operation Infinite Justice were Military Actions taken after 9/11.
Sept 25,2001,the DOD changed Operation Infinite Justice to Operation Enduring Freedom.

Were you Mr Wagner a member of the US Military after 9/11,(Not CSMR) ?
did you work for the DOD during your time as an Air Marshall?
Or
Did you hear that US Military that worked the US Airports were entitled to use the term Operation Enduring Freedom for what they were doing ,under orders from the DOD so you figured you could also use it?

Quote from your site
"Jim Wagner decided to resign from the federal government working his last day on September 11, 2003 - the one year anniversary of the terrorist attacks. "You can only watch so many people, fly around the globe back and forth, and arrest suspects before it gets a little repetitive."

In the August 2003 course you gave in NYC ,you said you left the air Marshal program after 3 months of NON INCIDENTAL Flying.(FAMs)

You claim in your bio to have worked from just after 9/11 till 9/11/03 correct?

You have documents that show you completed your training in April 02,correct?

The training in total is what 12 -13 weeks,so you joined in Feb-March 02 correct?

In August 03 you said you had quit after 3 months flying.
(August would  have been 1 month prior to your resignation)

You say you resigned Sept 11 03 ??
You say it was the FIRST ANNIVERSARY of the Sept 11 attacks?

Now if I am not mistaken the First Anniversary WAS Sept 11,02.

Wouldn't the Federal Air Marshal Service have Known and participated in all the One Year Anniversary ceremonies?
People in the airline industry expected,perhaps,another go on the anniversary so the ONE YEAR WOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANT.

If they did then one would have known for SURE when one retired?
UNLESS you resigned in SEPT 11,02,the first anniversary of 9/11 and 5 months after graduation.
(How about this,what you said at the Course was true,that you resigned after 3 months,instead of the semi patriotic resigned on 9/11/03.)

Also you claim that you were the first to claim in writing that a chemical was used on one of the Hijacked 9/11 aircraft.
Well sir the reports from people who had Phone calls which were aired on Sept 11 and shortly after,one phone call from a stewardess REPORTED that  some sort of Chemical was sprayed in the First class section.
This information was released LONG before the 9/11 commission report and I expect long before you wrote about it.(unless you wrote it the day of the event before airing the phone calls came up.
Where is that article or writing published with date written please?

The truth is without the hype you would not be selling anything.
When the immediate hype dies down you find another to morph into for a short time,like now  with the CSMR,another way to get around the stolen valor act and wear a Uniform you failed to wear for your full commitment when under Contract to US Government.


Failure to ever see anything through to completion except Hyping yourself.
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Samuel Browning

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 08:33:20 PM »

Hi Everyone:

Its Samuel Browning from Bullshido.net

Here is a link to our thread on this matter though we are still playing catchup to this board.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918

We also have a history of point shooting on our board which traces its connections to RBSD and I can assure you that Mr. Wagner did not invent this approach, though he is apparently claiming that he is the public founder of its counter-terror subsection.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18955

Posts #3 discussing Matt Thomas, #16 discussing Matt and others, & #25 discussing military RBSD instructors.
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Wardog

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2008, 12:50:33 PM »

  This Wagner thing is important because it is one of the bigger frauds in MA. It is worse because a publication that is(sort of) respected in MA and is an introduction to many novices to MA is open arm embracing him.  If you read Wagner's response on that other site to being called on the Inosanto stuff, he represents himself as having been picked up personally by Dan to attend classes. Having attended for an extended period of time. Being crushed on by his daughter. Yet Dan I can barely recall him?

   His certificates and Marine Scout Sniper stuff is clearly BS.  His CT stuff/Air Marshall gig is clearly misrepresented.  There is embellishing and there is fraud. This guy is a fraud.
He can't be without some skill because he does get work but so does Ki Chi Chuan guy, the guy who throws people around without touching them, Dillman.  You can be a legit McDojo BB and teach and represent yourself  as a McDojo BB. You can be a 15th degree BB in your own style but who takes that seriously.  But flat out lying......and being heralded by a a major MA mag as an expert? That has to stop.
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2008, 01:51:47 PM »

In regards to Wagners students/instructors:
Student and Instructor is one in the same as the courses that Wagner teaches are Instructor courses.

The Majority of people who attend the Course are already based in some other art/style,they are good  but not do to what JW has taught them.

The Majority DO NOT Teach JW course alone.
They either teach it mixed in with their art/style,teach it as a supplement program to give students and others a variety and or,for most,they teach nothing of the course.

Wagner teaches Basic tools and Basic concepts only.
Knife defense:
Close the gap,isolate the weapon bearing limb,strike/hurt the opponent,down them finish and move away.

Ground defense:
Hand and cover drill from the bottom position.
Fight and move to get up quickly.
If downed and the opponent is standing learb to kick,shift and turn from the ground.

Stand up fighting:
Close the gap.
Try to Isolate /pin one or both limbs.
Strike,hurt ,down them and get away.

Add in some theatrical blood,live blades and clean ground debris and you have the full self defense course in a nut shell.

Usable material as found in many self defense and traditional schools.

Again,I have no problem with anyone and their self defense concepts as the tools are found in most arts,even deployment is similar.
People just need to find the right person to fill their needs.

What I do have a problem with is Lying and Hyping ones credentials  to entice people to go to them and spend their hard earned money.
I have a problem with people who use the military and the heroics of some to sell materials that never have been and or never will be found on a battlefield or the street.

People can learn something from anyone,an advanced practitioner can even learn from a beginner ,if they look hard enough.

People can even learn from this fellow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MZeiBq3Irw
LOL
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2008, 04:13:52 PM »

IMO it is important to know an instructor's real credentials and reputation, especially for people who plan to get certifications by various organizations.  It might not make much difference if the skills are good and the student has no desire to teach, but if someone is say, a black belt in a traditional art and wants a few RBSD certifications to market his self-defense classes, all the time, money, travel, marketing, etc. would end up being for nothing if the system turns out to be based on misleading information.  Some certifications might end up making an instructor's credentials look worse than if he did not include them.
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2008, 07:34:58 AM »

Joe and all,

It is a problem of semantics,a word game to this guy.
Here are a few I picked from his response on the other forum:

Quote Wagner
"In my first military service, with the United States Army (Regular),"

This guy believes that being in the California (THE STATE of nothing more) Military Reserve,(MILITIA) that he is in the MILITARY of the US and people who do not know better swallow this BULL.
His first Militray service was short lived,he spent as more time trying to get out than he did to get in.


Quote Wagner
"Prior to this I had been an official defensive tactics and tactics instructor for:
United States Marshal Service SOG (Special Operations Group) on multiple occasions
United States Immigration & Naturalization Service Anti-Terrorism Task Force twice
German counterterrorist team GSG9 on two different occasions in Germany
Brazilian Air Force G.E.P.A. in Porto Alegre, Brazil
Argentinean G.O.E in Missiones, Argentina
Israeli Special Forces and Israeli Police two times in Israel
United States Air Force Security Forces Space Command in Colorado and then at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California
Of course, this list does not even include the dozens of SWAT teams I have trained around the world. Although I was paid for my services (except the Israelis due to a trade out), I too learned from all of these groups as well. Does this well known instructor think that I do not have the intelligence to absorb information from these world class agencies? I guess to him my years of dedication to officer safety deserves nothing more than “lol” (lots of laughs)."

The above list shows WAGNER has been to these groups and DEMONSTRATED his Material IN SELF DEFENSE ONLY.
HE uses the words
"I had been an official defensive tactics and tactics instructor for"
OFFICIAL INSTRUCTOR,makes it sound like a long term contracted Job.
Are we,the supposed stupid to him,supposed to believe he KNOWS more than these men and women of these groups who have been in business since before JW was born?

Quote Wagner
"Now we come to outright lies. First of all I never advertised in Black Belt in the late 80’s or early 90’s."

Here he plays on the words late 80's ,early 90's.
His ads appeared at the same time as his high Risk Articles,so he KNEW when the ads ran and played off the words Early 90's as compared to Late 90's when they actually ran.
See: http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4043.0

It is all word play from a VALUE PACK/GREETING CARD salesman.
Selling words to those who will not look for the truth in all the BS.


« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 07:56:31 AM by Hock »
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grlaun

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2008, 08:21:05 AM »

Here's the deal to everyone who thinks we're pickin' on ol'  Jim W. too much.

I'm a prior serviceman with 6 years in the Marine Corps,  I was a rifleman/recon man 0311/0321, I did my time got to the rank of Corporal, served my country & did so also at the tail end of Desert Storm/Shield.  JW may have made it through basic training and his basic schooling but he never seemed to actually have served in any other capacity other than attending schools. There are a ton of people on this forum & others who've done more simply by doing their tour(s) then JW did by discontinuing his.  Even if he had served as an admin clerk (no offense to any - couldn't have done with out ya!) for 2-4 years at least he would have been slightly more legit!

 I take unction to that fact that he has blown his record out of proportion and has allowed others to read things into it with out correction.  Lying by omission.  Essentially untrustworthy and therefore unreliable.  Hock's post on learning good things from bad people.  JW ain't never really been there done that he's skirted the real deal and plays up his wannabe status.  Although I'm glad he has enough background to actually teach effective basics, that's all he's good for - nothing more.  A militia is serving his country?  Come ON, JW!

He's trying to make himself sound like he did a high powered tour of duty but he never got past his basic training.  That's only ONE of the reasons he's being questioned.
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2008, 08:24:28 AM »

On a Ground Fighting DVD JW did for Budo, he opens the DVD up saying he was an ex- U.S. Military serving in a combat unit.    He never saw any combat or much military service for that matter.  He then says his current job is with the Costa Mesa Dignitaries Close Protection Group.  Didn't he say in his statement that he never got paid for the dignitary group in terrorist targeted Costa Mesa?

Costa Mesa Dignitaries Close Protection Group...does ANYONE know who or what that is? It appears no where.

Out

Joe

(editor's note, that was proven fraudulent claim by Costa Mesa and Orange County) Police)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 07:04:20 PM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2008, 04:35:55 PM »

I wonder what the world wide circulation of Black Belt magazine in its varied forms and Budo Magazine world wide are?

I ask as since Jim Wagner was a contributing writer to those magazines and OTHERS with his pics and his SGT rank,Police and Military training stories out there for at least 4 years would he possibly be recognized by a potential group of terrorist boarding an aircraft?

Even if not an Air Marshall wouldn't he still be a viable target because with his self described training in the mags He May decide to stand up to a potential Hijacker,terrorist cell?

Just curious as it seems a potential problem for a job like that.

Then again maybe Martial art mag contributors are not really that identifiable.

Hock are you and or others that you know who have been in the arts and mags awhile ever approached at airports or on planes by readers?
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Samuel Browning

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2008, 08:36:38 PM »

For those who would like to read Jim Wagner's various versions of his website since April 14, 2003 I recommend the following archieve called the wayback machine.

 http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jimwagnertraining.com

« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 08:59:41 PM by Samuel Browning »
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JimH

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 06:29:23 PM »

In an above post I mentioned that JW had said in Aug 03 course that he had resigned well before the course.
He claims he resigned 9/11/03.
Which would have been the month after the Aug course.

In the way back machine
JW site on Sept 29/03 says the following:
"Back several months ago when the publisher of http://web.archive.org/web/20031012020506/http://www.realfighters.com/, WR Mann, found out that Jim Wagner resigned from the his counterterrorist position with the United States government and was teaching seminar courses, he invited Jim Wagner to New York City to establish reality-based on the East Coast."

Sept 03 web page,when it is claimed he resigned ,he is already saying
"BACK SEVERAL MONTHS AGO when WR found out that JW resigned from his COUNTER Terrorism position"
His air Marshall job.

if we look at april 03,wayback,we will see the booking for the Ireland Seminar/course.

Again Mr Wagner,when did you actually Resign and WHY ??
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 08:13:00 PM by JimH »
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Milldog1776

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2008, 10:42:21 PM »

So the whole bio has changed now:

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner.html

I couldn't sit through the whole thing, but looks like everytime one of us brings something up...he writes more.
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Samuel Browning

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2008, 08:52:52 PM »

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72918&page=11

This is a link to post #101, which contains a summary of a short interview with Officer Phil Hartman of the Costa Mesa police.  I promise it will be an interesting read.

(Wagner NEVER on a SWAT team.)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 05:40:11 PM by Hock »
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Samuel Browning

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2008, 09:53:53 PM »

Someone (not myself) just opened up a thread on the Black Belt Magazine forums asking Jimmy to answer the 13 questions.

The link is below  :D

http://blackbeltmag.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=598
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Samuel Browning

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2008, 10:39:07 PM »

I went over to his site, and didn't see where he addressed the comments made by Officer Phil Hartman.
Also see http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php/topic,4084.0.html
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 11:53:57 AM by Hock »
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Milldog1776

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Re: Jim Wagner training
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2008, 11:29:42 PM »

He still does not address much. There are some JKD certs. up now. More on that in a minute...

Jim is performing a classic trial lawyer move. Instead of answering Hock's simple 13 questions, he is writing page after page of background non-essentials hoping that people will get lost or simply not take the time to read it.

Like I said...lawyers do the same thing. You request a simple piece of evidence, a phone record, bank transactions, etc....and the lawyers send you a mountain of evidence instead.  The piece of evidence you really want is there alright...probably mislabeled, out of order, and buried under a mountain of other shit.

Back to the Innosanto certs.
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/images/JKD_cert_page.pdf
http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/images/Aspen_cert_page.pdf
One is for Eskrima and the other is for Wing Chun.
One is for 40 hours of training while the other is for 20 hours of training.
So if he went to class twice a week for an hour each time...that's what?....6 months of training. I don't see how that is helping his case by posting those. Niether by the way say "Instructor".
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