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[Professor]

I've held off on discussing this one (biting my tongue in responses).....I can't stand it anymore!!!

Why are you spending 10/20/30/50% of your class time exercising and stretching when you can better use it to teach people your curriculum?

This seems like an incredible waste of valuable class time that can be much better used.   This one really drives me nuts. 

If students are too stupid not to warmup before class, a groin tear is certainly in their future.   Why not have a once-a-month class to teach students how to appropriately warm-up and then have the expectation that they are ready at the start of class to begin learning/training.  Minimally, have the "lecture while people are warming up.

Part of your class already shows up late to be able to skip the warm-up.   Seldom are these the people with stretch injuries.



Damn,  that felt good.    Fire away.

[Milldog1776]

No stretching in my class, either! That's something you do on your own time. Come to class ready to train. I've actually attended classes where there was about 25 minutes of stretching for a 1 hr class! What a boring event that was!

[seanross]

I also don't do stretch/warmup for CQC class.

Exceptions would be doing some solo fan strikes to warm up the wrist on stick day.  We also have had a good time with the various stick "tug-o-war" drills as warm ups.

Personally, I am always stretched and warmed up.  I stretch throughout the day whenever I feel tight.  I figure that if I have to stretch for 30 minutes before fighting in order to avoid injury, then I am never ready to fight.  This also places a limit on the kinds of moves one includes in fight training.  Moves that no one can safely do without warmup are just not practical for real fights.  I think this would include a lot of high and aerial kicks and things like jumping in and out of full splits.

[Adventure]

 Hey, does anyone know if you really need to stretch before working out?
 I was a flexibility seminar by that Kettlebells guy & he said there is no Hard facts that streching prior to working out helps. He said you should stretch after the work out when your muscles are warmed up.
 But like the 90-98% of all fights go to the ground quote no one ever sites the source of thier info.
David

[Kentbob]

I think stretching is an important facet of exercise, and many people can report having torn a muscle because they were not properly stretched out...however...those same people were not properly warmed up period, and so were asking for trouble.  i too have been in the class that took 25 minutes out of the hour to stretch.  i like stretching, and so i didn't complain.  i would like my students to show up for class already ready already.  or, as someone suggested, go over that evening's lesson plan during the warmup period.  the biggest mistake i see is that stretching is used properly.  i saw in an army manual a good quote, or whatever you want to call it.  "Warm up to stretch, don't stretch to warm up."  The muscles should be warm and pliable, otherwise the stretching will not have the desired effect.  Is stretching that important?  Bottom line is that everyone is different, and everyone has different needs as far as stretching.  I value it, highly.  Especially before doing something that involves vigorous use of mylegs, such as kicking or running. 


Kent

[Trembula]

Generally most classes are in the afternoon or evening, after folks have had a whole day of walking (or sitting) around and their bodies are already somewhat loosened up. For classes and PT sessions that start at the proverbial "O-dark thirty", then I think a warmup (quick jog, a couple of mild calesthenics, etc) and some stretching before the actual workout begins helps to prevent injury.

People are paying for the training... if they wanted PT, they would of joined a fitness club. So therefore, I think keeping the warmup, if any as short as possible, 5-10 minutes MAX (and included in this can be some techniques, shadow boxing, stick twirling, hubad, etc.)

Dan

[Scott]

a couple of articles from: http://makeashorterlink.com/?J672213EA


http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20040505/Feature1.asp

http://www.swedish.org/17245.cfm

Since I workout at 5:30 AM I like to do mild dynamic stretching to warmup. If my goal is to increase my range of motion around a joint, I same that for after my workout.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masrjb/Stretch/stretching_toc.html#SEC30
"Dynamic stretching, according to Kurz, "involves moving parts of your body and gradually increasing reach, speed of movement, or both." Do not confuse dynamic stretching with ballistic stretching! Dynamic stretching consists of controlled leg and arm swings that take you (gently!) to the limits of your range of motion. Ballistic stretches involve trying to force a part of the body beyond its range of motion. In dynamic stretches, there are no bounces or "jerky" movements. An example of dynamic stretching would be slow, controlled leg swings, arm swings, or torso twists."


Scott

[pmh1nic]

"If students are too stupid not to warmup before class"

Maybe not stupid but ill informed or rushed for time

My classes are 1 1/2 hours long and we spend the first 15 ~ 20 minutes stretching and doing calisthenics. Most student show up just as the class is starting and need that time to warm up a stretch. I would rather take them through a thorough warm-up and stretching routine because many people rush through that process and don't do a proper job of it.

In addition if a student suffers an injury during a workout and I lose them for a few weeks or a month it hurts my bottom line. Also, as the owner and head instructor any time someone is injured regardless of the reason somehow a measure of the responsibility (rightly or wrongly) is put on me.

[Professor]

"If students are too stupid not to warmup before class"

Maybe not stupid but ill informed or rushed for time

My classes are 1 1/2 hours long and we spend the first 15 ~ 20 minutes stretching and doing calisthenics. Most student show up just as the class is starting and need that time to warm up a stretch. I would rather take them through a thorough warm-up and stretching routine because many people rush through that process and don't do a proper job of it.

In addition if a student suffers an injury during a workout and I lose them for a few weeks or a month it hurts my bottom line. Also, as the owner and head instructor any time someone is injured regardless of the reason somehow a measure of the responsibility (rightly or wrongly) is put on me.

You forgot the rest of the paragraph:

"Why not have a once-a-month class to teach students how to appropriately warm-up and then have the expectation that they are ready at the start of class to begin learning/training.  Minimally, have the "lecture while people are warming up."

So, 1 1/2 hour workout:   20 minutes stretching (?10 minute water break?).....this would mean that the person is paying for an 1 1/2 hour workout and getting ~ 1 hour.    This means 20-30% of the classtime is spent in a non-productive manner.  Even if you only have 15 minutes you are wasting ~17% of your instructional time. 

Seems like a mighty big waste of student time...

[kamagong]

This is a very interesting post!  Glad these topics came up.  As far as I know, there has not been a definitive study done that says that stretching before workouts prevents injuries.  Warm-up is important.  As far as my Exercise Phys classes in College were concerned (My degree is in Fitness and I am a personal trainer) the warm-up is the important thing, it raises body temperature and gets blood flowing.  If you have a poor warmup, you generally tend to have a poor workout.  Kurtz, who was quoted earlier, has good info.  He states, and it is true, that "static" flexibility and "dynamic" flexibility have some influence over each other, but not as much as you may think.  I don't have much static flex, but I can kick pretty high (not that I want to).  For the MA people, generally good dynamic flex is the thing to have for combatives.  Static is needed for health reasons though.  How flexible you remain will have an influence over how mobile you will be when you get older.  So stay loose.

As for the time in class, I guess it depends on what your aim is.  Sometimes you will get folks that look at the class as a fitness deal.  These are the majority of people who start in the MA.  They want some physical conditioning as part of class because they don't often have the discipline to do it themselves outside of it.  If you have a CardioKickboxing class, or something like it like Muay Thai, they will be the ones to sign up.  If your class is geared toward Defensive Tactics, then you will probably not do as much, and focus instead on scenarios and skills.  Personally I think it is good to offer both types, that way you get a broader market.  Just my $0.02

[Rawhide]

Well, I ain't going to make any apologies for my stretching/warm up program!  Mostly because the majority of my students are looking for a well rounded fitness and self defense program initially.  They are tired of the same old same old at the gym and like the comeradrie that comes with working out hard with a group of friends of the same ilk. 
Also, as mentioned above, most of the students come directly from work where warming up and stretching is frowned upon on company time (unless thy're the supervisor).  Its a nice relatively pleasant transition from sitting all day to working out the kinks and working the muscles.  Not that its going to prevent tornm muscles but its more of a mental tranistion from work to relaxation.
Its great for the student you never met, it meets their needs and appeals to their sense of well being.  Many might arigue with that, but when your student feels good they have a tendency to return and hopefully bring friends!  Great for business.
 
As far as my CQC classes go, I'm not wasting any time on that, they better arrive early or be ready

[Professor]

Well, I ain't going to make any apologies for my stretching/warm up program!  Mostly because the majority of my students are looking for a well rounded fitness and self defense program initially.  They are tired of the same old same old at the gym and like the comeradrie that comes with working out hard with a group of friends of the same ilk. 
Also, as mentioned above, most of the students come directly from work where warming up and stretching is frowned upon on company time (unless thy're the supervisor).  Its a nice relatively pleasant transition from sitting all day to working out the kinks and working the muscles.  Not that its going to prevent tornm muscles but its more of a mental tranistion from work to relaxation.
Its great for the student you never met, it meets their needs and appeals to their sense of well being.  Many might arigue with that, but when your student feels good they have a tendency to return and hopefully bring friends!  Great for business.
 
As far as my CQC classes go, I'm not wasting any time on that, they better arrive early or be ready

I know that I was crusty in my original post, however,  guess Rawhide quote getsto it...

It's Marketing.   If the student can get stretched before the CQC class, they can certainly arrive early enough to stretch before regular classes.

Am I wrong?

[kayakpirate]

My own experience has beeen positive with stretching and warm ups.
I started my training back in 76' .Have gone through a number of different systems.Always we made sure we were ready at class time.Always intergrated strecthing into my work outs.
Now at 47 I can still out do everything I could do at 20.I have gone through many methods over the years but always made sure my body was ready for the activity.As a result, I have'nt
had the problems other training partners of mine have gone through.No back problems,no
bad knees or ankles. I have always found the time to train,no matter if I'm doing ground work,running,going through my forms,( dont under estimate the old Okinnawan forms,there a lot of close in combat going on there.)I would have to say that if you take it seriously,and push as you would to pump up your biceps, you can get a lot of life out of your body through a solid approach warm ups and stretching.

[Hock]

Actually, it all hit me at about 48.
Last week, I heard from a guy who told me,it all hit him at 54.
Last Sunday night, a guy told me 68!
There are physical degenerations of the body that stretching and exercise cannot fight back. Suddenly...your spine, or whatever, just can't take it anymore!

(Beware of split leg stretching worst of all. It seems to hit many folks seriously.)

But general stretching should never be stopped, huh?

I do not conduct regular classes, but in the beginning of seminars I shout,
"Everyone stretch out a bit as you and your age can stand."

This way you are officially doing it in a seminar, but not making a 60 year-old bend like a 20 year-old...or overdoing warmup times that could be better spent doinf other things.

Hock

[kayakpirate]

Oh dont get me wrong. Spilts are counter-productive. That stuff with a guy doing splits on folding chairs... and the point of that is..? And Yoga, well, I'll pass on that as well.
The other side of the spectrum is a careful, sensible approach that maintains the body and actually reduces the effect of some of the more ballistic training.I'm not talking about stretching for the sake of stretching.But rather a more therapeutic approach .Not everybody has the same flexibility,this varies.But that doesnt mean that this training should be ignored or considered
useless.As we age ,sure we lose certain assets,But thats to be considered.Aging shouldnt be an excuse for accepting limitations.Partciularly when stretching even in a limited sense, can help.
I see guys that never warm up,go in and grunt the weights around chuclke at me warming up,
they can barely get in their car when they're through.They complain about how sore they are as if this is a good thing.I went through the agonizing 40 minute long stretching sessions in the old days. Now I have evolved a system that seems to work for me and helps those I train as well.
Genetics do play a roll there.As does diet.If your living on processed foods...well anyway...to each his own.