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[whitewolf]

In class today a military poilce officer attending asked to have me demo how to defend against victim  kneeling with a pistol to rear of head- we worked on it for awhile but i would like some thoughts from the forum.

we worked on victim reaching  back grabbing slide-head drops as other hand comes around grabs slide also with snaping motion takes weapon-continues striking while moving up and away-commnetr please- looked on you
WW tube did not see anything from execution style --
comments please  WW

[JimH]

When kneeling with a pistol to the back of the head try to make contact with the pistol by pushing th ehad back against the weapon.
This will also allow you to know,for sure, the distance to the weapon bearing limb.
Keep the back as upright as possible,if you bend over,head toward knees or floor, you greatly reduce ability to do anything in your favor.

Pressure to pistol at the back of the head.
push into pistol a bit to get attacker to insticntively oush back.
When you feel the weapon push ,turn your head and upper body,allowing the pistol and bearing limb to go forward,past the head.
Let us say we are right handed and are able to turn the right side of the head and upper body.
Turn head and upper body to the right,pistol goes by.
Immediately right hand slides down and grabs the pistol bearing arm,most likely attackers right hand.
Edge of your right hand faces the attackers hand,V Grip toward the attackers shoulder/body.
Pull the attackers arm down and in towards your right hip,rolling into the arm,your left arm is striking the back of the attackers right elbow,
pull the attacker down and under you,continue to hold with the right hand ,keep pistol from turning to you.
Slid your right knee onto the tricep tendon of the attackers right arm.
Attacker is now pinned under you, elbow strikes to the side of the attackers neck and jaw.
Since knee is on the triceps tendon ,your right hand near the attackers shooting hand,pull the hand up,elbow joint under knee facing up,break the joint against the knee and remove the weapon.

[whitewolf]

ok will try it with one of the guys-tied it by myself and going to play around as -dont you at some time go for the slide -if you have tight grip on wrist cant he muscle it towards you-or do continuous firing?ill let you know if i understand it- thanks-it is interesting i have searched for a hour and cannot find one vidio of wpn to rear of head   while victim is on knees? thats strange???

[whitewolf]

elbow strikes to jaw  and neck- is that with your left elbow-? i assume so- WW

[JimH]

WW,
When kneeling with a pistol to the back of the head, I would rather grab,secure and control a limb and use it take the attacker down than try for the pistol and slide.

Yes the elbows to the side of the neck and or jaw would be done with the left hand ,in the scenario used,as once I grab the attackers arm with my right I do not let go until I break the elbow and take the pistol from the hand.

Also if when I grab the arm,smash the attackers right elbow with my left arm,I can also use my left leg from the kneeling position to take out one of the attckers legs with a low line kick.
Closest weapon to closest target would be my left leg to the attackers right leg.

To me ,my opinion here,grabbing the attackers pistol while I am still kneeling gives him advantage to kick me or strike me with his free hand and pull/twist his pistol free putting me into a very bad spot as the attacker will not close the distance again.

Standing up pistol grabs work very well and allow for body movement on my part to turn the weapon free from the attacker and give me control.

From the ground/kneeling,my movement is limited,and my position to grab the weapon is limited.

My opinion

As said though try various attacks and various replies/responses and find what works best for you and the students.
Test ,test and test some more and creat viable responses that fit .

The response I gave is just one based on my mental visualization of the scenario we used and the way I train.

[whitewolf]

JimH-really good info from you- ok I tried various grabs-I understand about locking up the hand/arm-
what i came up with so far is basically to this.
wpn at back of head
lean back slightly as u said
throw back head and your  back
(you do not know which hand gun is in)
anyhow -your right or left  hand comes up contacts arm-slides down as u said to wrist area
other  arm comes accross grabs slide
as you roll attempt to get his arm under you-keep holding on to wpn-breaking his finger
inside trigger guard -get to dominate position and keep on fighting till you are in control
as u say-this one is up for grabs- lots of practise under strress is needed
but have to try or die-situations such as this one are not tried in many schools-
i keep on thinking of weird ones as murphies law always comes into play
i would imabing that  Hock (haveing been in so many arrests) would agree-
the school that does not try to forsee situations and just practises over and over same
tactic ( i think) is missing the boat.
anyhow stay  safe  WW

stay safe  WW

[JimH]

WW,
That sounds like a doable move.
I would be hesitant to try and pull the arm by just holding the opponent wrist,hand or arm while also holding the slide of the pistol.
I want to control the hand /wrist so the weapon can not be articulated to point to me,the attack to his elbow helps me pull the opponent down and under as I roll.
I would have to try your technique against a resisting opponent who tries to pull pistol away  when I grab the slide.
(I know that your movement works well in stand up,and should work from the kneeling position,it is just being so much lower than the opponent and lack of movement from being on the knees that would concern me)
Work all possible scenarios and develop workable techniques that fit.

If in the response I gave the opponent uses their left hand,opposite of the hand used in scenario:
Enter the same way
head pushes back
Turn to the right,(If doable)
my right hand strikes weapon bearing limb and slides down to grab near wrist to control weapon.
now I use my left arm to strike down into the elbow bend and this jerks the opponent forward allowing them to come down as I roll.
I then slide my left arm from the bend straight through,under the opponents left forearm and regrab MY right arm which is already holding the opponents left wrist.
I can use this inside position and figure four lock on the opponents weapon bearing left arm
This lock allows me to use pain to stop the opponent from trying to use his free hand to choke me as I am now inside his center
I can also use the lock to make the break to disarm

Pressure test everything and find what works for  and present all options to students to test so they may find what works best and is doable for them.

[whitewolf]

thanks JimH-i was at work today and it was very quiet so all day long i simulated the
wpn at the back of head and reviewed way to defend-it appears that it is similar to gun to side of back of head while standing -more or less-

One guy on a vidio said if i buy his set of cds on knife defense i would see how to do it-
ill skip this guy

really appreciate the feedback you gave me on this- WW

[Canuk]

Remeber that even when griping the slide that some pistols can still fire off the chambered round. The goal should always be to move off line from the muzzle.

[JimH]

qoute Canuk:
"Remember that even when griping the slide that some pistols can still fire off the chambered round. The goal should always be to move off line from the muzzle."

Yes this is always a possibility,that is why control of the limb/hand holding the weapon must be prevented from articulating toward you,the defender or your loved ones.

If we use the weapon and grab it and turn it back to the shooter,with his finger in the trigger,we WILL Get a shot fire,(if one was chambered ),so if we count on breaking the finger in the trigger well we must expect the round to go off and if when the round goes off we do have a tight grip on the slide to prevent it from going forward enough it will eject the casing and load another round.
That is why we teach that if a slide grab is made you cover the ejection port with your hand to prevent an ejection and cause a jam and no new live round to chamber.
we also roll the weapon down and under back to the shooter ,rather than as some do,just twist the weapon in an outward wide arc ,ending with a finger break and eventually pointing back to the shooter.

What happens in the wide twist is that at some point in the turn the finger puts pressure on the trigger and the round fires off,during some time in the arc the round goes off before it reaches being pointed at the shooter,so where the round went could be bad for team mates,or relatives.

Here is a clip from the Human weapon,with Moni Aizik showing the pistol disarm grabbing the slide which is simialr in most Krav Maga teaching.
Notice the wide arc with the finger in the trigger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfOtlXs59M0

Now the way we teach it:
push pistol with left hand and grab wrist (same as in clip above)
Turn body
Grab pistol slide with right hand on top
V Grip points to shooter
Hand covers ejection port
Turn pistol muzzel down towards the ground,now turn in an arc up towards the shooters,up their center line
If pistol fires it will most likely hit shooter,or the ground at angle in front of shooter,so a skip may hit shooter.
Just another way which to me is safer for all but the shooter.

[Canuk]

agreed on all points Jim! one of the things that people have to prep for is the LOUD noise once once the trigger is pulled. The reaction for most people will be to let go of the slide and get away. Flinch maybe. if this happens it will allow the attacker to regain control of the situation, also factor in the burns from the powder. People must accept that it will be loud, hot and painful, all of which is still much more preferable than getting shot.

Pschologhy of teh confrontation of the event is critalical. must must rememebr that burns heal, pain is temporary but a shot to the head is usually fatal

[whitewolf]

Movement on vidio is ok but i say and was taught you HAVE to get hand over the slide not- the wrist-simple as that-pushing the wpn down or away as  you do repeated strikes till u strip the wpn-

as for execution style ill  practise basically what JimH passed on- ill have more as i work on it-only time and practise will tell. WW

[Canuk]

And dont forget "how did you get there" at the point of kneeling with a gun against your melon you may have had other oppitunites to escape

[Joe Hubbard]

And don't forget "how did you get there" at the point of kneeling with a gun against your melon you may have had other opportunities to escape

I totally agree.  Please remember, that the perp has footwork and the victim doesn't.  I think it's a real long shot that the kneeling guy would gain control of the gun in this situation.  He maybe has a explosive single leg takedown at best, but rounds will be going off.

The gun to the back of the head or back while standing stands a better chance of getting the gun guy to possibly lunge forwards.  That's because the victim would move back against the gun using his body, not just his head. These super late phase counters are good to explore, but again you have to ask yourself, "How the hell did you get there?"  It's weird, so many self defence systems just concentrate on these late phase counters and then everybody complains when they don't end up working.


Joe

[whitewolf]

I agree- how did you get there- well the police officer who works the country jail said- this is how-he gets overrun-by the prisoner-made to kneel down-
now the gun is to the head-reolizing that the counter may not work but if he does not try then its all over.(if not a gun then a knife-)

I just want to attempt to learn a tactic-if we dont try we will never know.

WW

[Joe Hubbard]

Yeah, but what is the probability factor of this tactic?  I bet you anything this never happened to this cop or anybody he actually knew.

Joe

[whitewolf]

No - I do not know anyone who this happened to- as I do not know any one who did a
block to a incomming punch and grab his arm and execute a flip where the oponent goes head over heels on to his back-but lots of instructors teach the tactic..

But- I do know of a undercover officer who was parked in broooklyn NY and the
person  he was with took out a pistol and from the side or rear shot him in the  head killing hiim-

I feel that practising the tactic we are talking about will add more confidence to the student and how they can react in a emergency-instead of just freezing-thats what we all are teaching-by skipping this or other off the wall attacks is just sticking our head in the sand-remember murphies law-what can happen will----


as i study more and more it becomes apparent that we need to adapt to unusual circumstances and methods of being attacked-

The police officers i work with in class are always asking about attackes- I would never say it will not happen -what i say  is lets check it out- (that comes from old school
teachers )i have been fortunate to study under-and jumping forward to some 5th group
special forces at ft campbell-who have passed on some wild storeis that have happened to them.

respectfully, WW

[Dawg]

No - I do not know anyone who this happened to- as I do not know any one who did a
block to a incomming punch and grab his arm and execute a flip where the oponent goes head over heels on to his back-but lots of instructors teach the tactic..

Well...you know me, and I actually executed this exact move against a young Marine with a softball bat! The irony!

"as i study more and more it becomes apparent that we need to adapt to unusual circumstances and methods of being attacked"

Couldn't agree with you more! It certainly isn't hurting anything to develop combat scenarios to deal with these type of circumstances. You might just learn something you weren't even expecting from the experience, as well as coming up with ways to prevent yourself from ending up in this terrible predicament.

Just a few months ago, while we were working on gun disarms in class, one of my students asked me what could we do if someone had two guns pointed at us simultaneously like they do in the movies. I couldn't believe after all the years of doing this and all the crazy questions I've dealt with that this one hadn't come up before! So, in typical Dawg fashion I looked at the class and said, "That's a damn good question; let's find out!"  We had a blast for the rest of the class exploring many possibilities of how to deal with just such a threat. As it turned out, dealing with two handguns pointed at you is very much like dealing with one...but not.

You get brownie points from me (FWIW!) just for addressing your student's concerns. Anyway, keep on adapting and evolving, you old Whitewolf, you!

[JimH]

Any situation that a person can think of should be trained for ,and doable techniques should be explored.

Has this situation ,person holding a pistol to the back of a persons head as they kneel in front of an attacker, been done?
Yes ,and it seems to be growing ,at least here in the North East of the US.
Mostly involving home break ins while the owners are home.
Family is gathered in Living room ,or main room of house,Father or head of household is made to kneel down and has gun put to his head for family to cooperate.

Also in NY
Cab drivers dispatched to call and the people who called put a pistol to drivers head and demand money,some drivers are let free,some are shot in the back of the head.


We should be problem solvers:

Last night at the school I attend one of the Black Belt students had a scenario.
It had happened to a friend and he wanted to develop a response.
He demonstarted the armed attack scenario,we developed  responses to the threat and found what worked well and what presented other problems.
We came to some solutions and people found workable ones that fit them and their ability to respond.

Finding answers to situtations is what we should be doing.
Just as no question is too stupid,No situation is beyond being presented and solved.
Yes common defenses should take up most of the class time ,but we should be able to find solutions to the craziest of attacks,this is our job as instructors,not just teach what we know to look good,but to problem solve a solution.

Training for out of the box attacks allows us to be able to respond to attacks we have not seen before as we become problem solvers,not robots programed to function only in the realm of known materials.

To me, if a student says I have a question about an attack,I say well do it to me and let's see what we can do with it.

I agree that awareness and avoidance are prime objectives but sometimes bad crap just happens to find good people when they are not ready for it.

My opinion

[whitewolf]

Well sir you hit the nail on the head-talking about incidents outside the box- i had a mother of 3 teens come to class today- we worked on grabs from behind and grabs to the wrist over and over -she is concerned about the teens and will bring them -we also worked on a   rape sanario on the bed and how to fight for your life she did pretty this is not done too much -  also kneeling and in a head lock-on a bed or on the floor-
i try to think of things that will occur and not taught-some are ok some are not ok
never the less we attempt.

stay  safe  WW

[whitewolf]

ah  dawg man-i answered your   e  mail-
as for a marine hitting you on the old beaner-u r a sailor it would not have hurt=your dixie cup would have taken the shock- 
whitewolf (el lobo blanco) speed of light-and - i might add  getting a bit faster
(in my own mind)

[noload]

If it's staying with the topic of how to defend against execution with pistol to back of head, then from what I've learned you can't do much. The best you can hope for is the guy with the gun took a lot of karate classes where the bad guy always had the gun touching your head instead of standing a bit back. Of course anything is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srgg_OAULeg

Still, it's good to train different things and even if it doesn't work at least you know how much you don't want to be in that situation, and where the cutoff line is to act.

[Hock]

Before I begin...
 a- all film clips are excised out of context.
 b- therefore I apologize to the "stars" in advance as they are just trying to help
 c- all counter-gun situations suck, suck way more than inexperienced people imagine

That film clip is a bit of misleading bullshit.

   Must have dumb gun man touch head with gun. Must have a two-handed grip? One handed grip?
    So many pistol take-away techniques are predicated on the gun man never, ever, simply pulling his gun hand reflexively back, which is SUCH a natural movement. It seems that the "Krav Maga Collective" has a whole slew of these and from very oddball positions too. Solutions are often made up by people unfamiliar with guns, shooting, real people and real reactions (spare me the every Krav is a commando storyline).

   This gun guy in the film yanks his gun back a few inches? A common move against a grab? One inch? Mr. Gi pants is fucked. Or if the gun guy sees all this swirling below him, takes ONE STEP away. Just one. And that whole dance ditty is over. And during much of the ground swirl the victim has one rather lame, presumptive hand grip on the pistol of the complying, "lifeless" man. Then - to land the toe-to-groin kick, you have to pre-measure/prejudge leg distance and height to spin on your hip and get that groin kick.

But its a great, primitive starting point to actually think of some tricks that MIGHT be effective sometimes. It doesn't take much thinking. These situations demand the most quick, effective approach. Maximum yield. Hip spins to toe kicks versus lifeless statues with rubber guns don't cut it.

Hock

[Joe Hubbard]

WW

I’m all for problem solving, but it is the responsibility of a good teacher to separate the ridiculous from reality.  I didn’t say not to work on scenarios that you think of, I just said that what you came up with as a counter has a 'high probability' of not working.

The idea of the scenario that you have outlined puts the victim in a super late phase situation.  In fact, most shooters who order the victim to get on their knees and turn around are pretty much committed to shooting them right then and there- that’s why they order them to turn around.  Reverse engineering this scenario to an earlier phase gives your students more of a 'high probability' counter factor.  

Example:  students of mine have often asked me how they counter a car jacking when they have been ordered to drive the vehicle on to the motorway at a very high speed.  What I do is ask them where the incident started.  Because the question is usually hypothetical, this gets the student thinking and starting to problem solve the scenario for himself.  So anyway, the student may reply by saying, “The guy was in the car when I started it up in my driveway.”  He may go on to explain the guy is in the back seat, keeping his head down while periodically scanning the back window; he is armed with some sort of knife and nervous as hell as he is ordering him to drive in a particular direction.  This sets the dynamic for your counter.  Right there, as the guy glances behind him, floor the car into the car parked in front of it.  From there, you have several ways to follow this scenario up, but the first option for me would be to take advantage of the surprise that was created and use that window of opportunity for an escape.  Why wait until you are driving on a highway at high speeds only to realize the your only way out is to crash the car and probably end up killing yourself?

Kelly McCann once said, “There is always a box you can build that you won’t be able to get out of.”  In other words, if you have left your opportunity to counter an attack to such a worst case scenario, in some cases, you may not be able to counter it.

With that in mind, remember to base your scenarios on ‘high probability’ tactics and then work on the training methodologies and attributes that support the development of those tactics and the development of the individual that you are teaching.  

 When practicing your scenarios :
-   Start with the end in mind- Establish the Scenario
-   Reverse engineer it so that you can clarify the early, mid and late phases of the scenario
-   Practice it Theoretically, Statically, Dynamically, Low Level Scenarios (include sparse verbal communication) and High Level Scenarios (scenario based on a storyline where a specific set of actions initiated should evoke a certain set of responses by the student).

Further reading: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com/2009/10/28/combat-scenario-based-training/

Joe

PS Here's one for you to try.  The criminal is hanging the victim outside a window by his feet fifteen floors up- what's the counter?  

[whitewolf]

Hock- thank you  makes good sense- WQ

[whitewolf]

I just reviewed the vidio where the victim reachs up grabs the wpn and falls to the floor where he kicks- i will say this is terrible, stupid, and sucks- the over the head grab
is about all that is ok but from then on he is going from bad to worse-he has no leverage
on the pistol-the kick is weak
What I think JimH said was move to put pressure on the arm and go from there-better chance-
WW

[noload]

I thought you guys would enjoy the KM video.

In fact, most shooters who order the victim to get on their knees and turn around are pretty much committed to shooting them right then and there- that’s why they order them to turn around.

I love the reaction of some instructors when during gun disarms I take some control (most techniques really have the unarmed guy in control), or just stay out of their reach and shoot them for "making their move".

Solutions are often made up by people unfamiliar with guns, shooting, real people and real reactions (spare me the every Krav is a commando storyline).

But Hock, this guy is wearing the commando shorts, so he must be experienced. He even takes the time to pose at the end of an almost deadly encounter. I wonder how light the trigger is on that rubber gun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6hIOMLn8dE&feature=related

[whitewolf]

commandooooooooo shoooorts- yea-without them on you are lost in the sauce- hehe
WW

[noload]

Oh my, I did a little check on the fellow in the video and came across his MySpace page. Check out the survey.

http://www.myspace.com/159457038

[arnold]

So that's what I need... commando shorts!