Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • January 16, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind  (Read 7242 times)

EpicThought

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« on: June 14, 2010, 08:55:53 AM »

I'm teaching a class and one of the scenarios we are working through is being grabbed from behind and drug to a private area. What is the most common way to be grabbed from behind and how would you handle it?
Logged

noload

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 10:30:31 AM »

Generally someone who is trying to drag you off doesn't want dead weight, so they may want you to keep your feet though not your balance. That's key, because one of the first things you'll need to do is get back your balance. One way to do this is to try to move a bit faster than you're being dragged and getting turned around.
Note: When training make sure the badguy actually drags the "victim" backwards. No standing around.

Common ways that I know of to be dragged off are by the hair, collar, back of clothing, arm around neck though these are somewhat easy to beat with pretty simple techniques. There are some better methods are out there for moving a person backwards that are harder to get out of but I don't think that's what you're looking for.
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 06:05:55 PM »

some possibilities that could occur are as listed.
arm   wrapped around throat.
one arm grabbed and you are pulled aside or in a allley or room
2 opponents grab you-one on each arm and take you
larger opponent wraps arms around and lift or pull you backward
3 opponents grab you-throw you down on stomach-tie your arms and legs--
put a hood over your head and take you away.

One good tactic as has been discussed before is dont get in that situation-be alert-be in yellow mode in public-if you are concerned about being taken make a alternate plan

take a self defense coutse that works on various tactics to fight someone off who attacks from behind.

Practise immendiate action drills when first touched from behind-or sense you are being followed closely.

WW



 
Logged

EpicThought

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 09:36:49 PM »

The class is for a group of people in a corrections setting, so while avoiding is possible, its not as easy as on the street. The specific concern that was brought up by one of the students was being dragged into a cell. I realize the different ways a person could be attacked in this way and at least a few ways to counter them. I am mainly trying to figure out what the most likely way of it happening would be. Hopefully based on stats. I am teaching a 40 hr state certified class... one that is taught in every state ;) I will only have a few hours at the end of class on Friday to address concerns the students have that won't be answered at all by this "system". Because of the time constraints I can't explore all of the options with them. In this business we sometimes have to sneak in a little extra when we are given the opportunity. There are a couple of closed minds around...

I'm thinking that the arm around the neck would probably be the most common, but again that is just my best guess. Thanks for the responses guys!
Logged

Joe Hubbard

  • London, England
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 997
  • Transforming the Esoteric with the Exoteric!
    • www.functionalfighting.com
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 12:54:19 AM »

Many of these ruses happen when the victim is distracted by an individual, group or incident within his 10 to 2 arcs of vision.  Once his attention is taken in that direction, the secondary attack happens from behind.

Joe
Logged
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side"

Hunter S. Thompson

www.joehubbardstreetsurvival.com

Visit My Blog: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 04:45:12 AM »

Sense you said it was in a prison setting   guess that might change the situation.
I have not been a prison guard but i would think attacks would happen as joe reiterated.

I might think that a push could occur from the rear and the guard would fall or trip into the cell or close area where he would be set upon.

One of my students is in a pod sometimes with upm to 40 prisoners...............

And of course their is the law enforcement office who says they do not need unarmed self defense classes as they are armed or have  other officers with them-or-just are to lazy or in denile that they need any tactics without a weapon.

Myself -i just dont understand how a PO would get that mentality-especially if  they have worked  in a prison system or on the street.

anyhow good info comming out on the thread-helps me- WW
Logged

EpicThought

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 07:15:00 AM »

We are lucky in the fact that here there isn't anyone who says there isn't a need for hand to hand training. The main reason for this is probably the high amount of hands on incidents that we have here. Most active Deputies have a couple of incidents a week.In direct supervision the ratio is 1 to about 70 on average.

If time permits, I think I'm going to cover to scenarios for being pulled backwards. One with the attacker grabbing you with arms straight, either around the neck or grabbing the hair. The defense will be similar to the vine in wrestling.

The second one will be an arm around your neck. The defense, wrapping one leg and throwing, and stepping behind and reaching over their back, similar the the knife to throat defense we recently discussed.

Any more ideas?
Logged

noload

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 07:20:25 AM »

I'm thinking that the arm around the neck would probably be the most common, but again that is just my best guess.

Epic,
A slight variation or add on to the arm around the neck is putting the other hand or an object to the small of the back. This arches the back giving a little more control and can help keeping the person from spinning out. Working on defending against this type of technique is good but it's also a technique that can be used by the guards so knowing how to make it work and it's weak points should be learned.

Logged

EpicThought

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 11:12:37 AM »

NoLoad, I agree completey that defenses against what you describe should be considered and expolored. However I can't think of a situation where I would use it as a guard. The liability issues involved with placing your arm or hands around an inmates throat would negate its usefullness. If they have escalated the confrontation to the level where it would be justified, I would be using something more effective.

In the detention and corrections setting we are held to a much higher standard than the high stand set even for patrol divisions. This is primarily because of the realitively controlled environment and the speed of available assistance from other officers.

This is a field where you absolutely must perfect your techniques and be very selective in the ones you choose to use. But if force is escalated all bets are off!
Logged

noload

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2010, 01:35:25 PM »

Still lots of things you can do besides putting your arm across someone's throat but achieve the same goal, taking and controlling someone's balance from behind to take them down or move them backwards.
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2010, 08:22:13 PM »

Epic-could you go over the Vine tactic- thanks WW
Logged

EpicThought

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2010, 10:17:39 PM »

WW - The "vine" as I was taught in wrestling was used when your opponent was behind you, usually on his knees and you are sitting with your elbows tucked in. To get out of this position you can reach behind you with one arm, wrap it around your opponent's head. Then you arch your back and turn your body to which ever side you reached with.

With most combative techniques I don't know the correct names. Mainly because I quit caring about the technical names and sounding fancy about the time I walked away from more sport oriented training. I thought that the vine term would help describe it....

Opponent is behind you, places both hands around your neck and pulls backwards.  Turn around to face your opponent, as you begin to turn put your head below his arms and then raise up. You kind of use your opponent for support as you turn and then you take a step to regain your balance. (I hope that makes sense)

You can do the same movement when someone grabs your hair from behind. You hold the hand to your head and you end up with a wrist lock of sorts.
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 04:37:44 AM »

Epic-thanks -good discription-we think alike-i dont care about the fancy names-in fact i have made some names up so the students i have can relate better to the tactic-
for example silly as it sounds here are a couple.
Jenifer Lopez-where the victim breaks from a front choke
shooting star-where hand moves accross from a choke and comes back with a forearm to side of neck
hammer fist -self explanatory
Untercept-when they are aiming to shock the opponent by palming to face and fingers  in claw go to eyes

the students can relate easliy to this (in my opinion)-

whitewolf (edl Lobo Blanco) speed of light
WW
Logged

Webby

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2010, 06:09:31 AM »

Grabbed from behind.

Both arms pinned, one arm pinned, both arms free. Same tactic for all three reach behind and crush his nut's. To practice use a box / cup guard. Half / quarter speed.

In, Grip, Twist ( this puts enormous pressure on the bladder ) and pull ( downward and away from the body ) the best way to damage nerves is to stretch them. The Testes are attached though a mass of nerves and vessels to the Coccyx ( The base spine ), bladder and arteries in both legs. Again damage to those areas will have a secondary effect on them as well. The whole male set of genitialia is really an internal organ sitting on the out-side of the body. Design fault I guess ! 

Train safe.

Webby..   
                               
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2010, 07:47:37 AM »

your discription of the grip pull on the private parts -i show that to the ladies -it is discussed as part of the tactic when caught in bed or on floor and attacker has pants open and ready to assault-i have to be a little creful on the language but the students get the picture-

the word i use" Intercept"-  this movement is accomplished immediately as they are grabbed by hand  or choked-the free hand shoots to chin using palm and then into claw for the eyes (or swipe them) thie is a very fast gross  motor skill that they pick up on quickly-tactic is continued after the initial palm/claw-which includes getting the hell out of the area if possible- do not stay to fight-

WW (ELB) speed of light  and gettiing faster (in my own mind)
Logged

Webby

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 608
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2010, 08:58:41 AM »

WW,
       Greg Jones : Author : Book Title : Sudden Violence.
 He has some good names for techniques that people can recall : Bread roll ( push and grab technique ) Camel bite ( grab and hold aimed at underarm skin ). Crocodile clips ( nasty three fingered pinch designed to rip a bit of flesh out of someone ).

I've heard the term ' constant gardener ' multiple knife slashes and the term ' sewing machine ' multiple straight line stabs ( both from the Dog Brothers ).

I heard the phase ' Running the gears ' to describe a prison knife attack.

A lot of phases originate from Martial Arts : Stake Money, Drawing a line in the sand.
both come from western boxing. Three goals in football is a hat-trick : A hat would get passed around the crowd and people would put some coins in for the players extra effort. I love Hock's Mister Bean vs The Hulk analogy.

Best of luck with it..Webby 

     
Logged

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2010, 01:25:27 PM »

chosin nija uses the "sewing machine" also-and the "weed wacker too"- WW
Logged

mickt

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2010, 07:44:00 AM »

As I read through these posts, Webby said it the best, how are you being held, you might look into AMERICAN or CHINESE KENPO, these are great systems made up of grabs and chokes from behind, Larry Tatum has a good dvd series that you might want to check out, take some of these techniques break them down to your USE OF FORCE LAWS, the techniques taught, teach you how to react to the way your grabbed-pulled-choked-bear hugged-punched and kissed by the ugly girl next door, fast effective strikes, hope this helps alittle because, You can't really say how you'll be pulled into a corner.

Be safe guys,

Mickt
Logged

Bryant

  • Kung Fu Genius
  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • To win in an instant is a superior achievement
    • moy yat ving tsun kung fu
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2010, 03:08:18 PM »

When I was doing Aikido, we had a special class on Saturdays called "The Animal Class", it earned that name because it was a physically demanding class. We would spend a portion of the class on what we called "Backgrabs" you would turn your back to the class and everyone would take turns grabbing you and you would have to escape. Attackers would moderate the level of resistance based on your skill level. We would also critique each other on how effective our responses were. It was a great learning experience!

-B.
Logged
Proverbs 27:17 - Proverbs 24:3-4

whitewolf

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 4702
Re: Combat Scenario: grabbed from behind
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2010, 06:19:06 PM »

Bryant- exce;lent training- we dop the same thing a   lot -back to  back  one is victim
one is attacker-attacker comes aro0und and reaches=victim responds with a tactic depending on placement of arm/hand of attacker-we go a  little slow so both can see what is really occuring-ww
Logged
 

Download