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Author Topic: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV  (Read 7822 times)

gematriot

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Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« on: July 02, 2010, 06:08:40 AM »

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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2010, 08:10:42 AM »

Shame we didn't get to see the point of first contact.  There was a delay from about 2159:03 to 2200:03.  I have a feeling there was a missed opportunity for a good pre-emptive entry by the guy who got swarmed on.

Joe
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 08:34:09 AM »

Aside from who is right or wrong there is a lot to learn by watching this vidio-
for example-
standing in close prximity and flaying arms apart-
no preemtive strike by either one
looking around to see where they are standing
flaying fists instead of close in boxing style strikes
easy to say i guess but no tactic to get released from head lock- (i have the student
go over and over this one-standing and on knees)
no use of bursting  in close inside others zone and repeated palm strikes or use of elbow

This is a great training vidio for class- shows what happens when the shit hits the fan and there are no  rules.

And as a side note- I hope they catch the MF who was kicking -

WW (ELB) Speed of light
 
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Cyphre

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 11:16:31 AM »

Have to admit - made me smile!.

That is from my home town.
It is no reflection of the city centre, it used to be a lot more violent decades ago when I was a youth but is now well policed and pretty sane.

However, it does prove what I have maintained regarding the MMA model of combat and BJJ in particular as your 'go to' tactic- it will get you stabbed or exactly the treatment this victim got if you try to BJJ-his-ass in a a real situation. You can armbar all you like, but it is you who will be stabbed or glassed or stamped on as you do your super-MMA techniques.

For example, in this very same city, some many years ago I was walking back from a club to get a taxi with a friend of mine. Across the road two guys were going at it and they fell to the ground. They continued to roll around and - from our side of the road - a guy just walking with his girlfriend and totally unrelated to the men fighting actually ran clear across the road and kicked one guy in the head. No reason other than the moronic instinct to take a cheapshot when some guy is on the ground.

So, don't know what you guys think, but 'taking it to the ground' in my experience will get you a good dose of that video - if not worse. The 'BBJ-MMA' wrestling great for the ring - in fact absolutely ideal - on the street - suicide. (Discuss! LOL!)
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2010, 12:03:51 PM »

Cyphre- agree 100 and 10 %

In todays class we discussed that menality of MMA /BJJ concept-i just do not go along with it-strike fast  hard and use continued motion to finish the job-
WW
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Canuk

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2010, 03:26:58 PM »

lol sounds like my city, assclowns will cross the street to have a go at ya!
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JimH

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2010, 05:15:18 PM »

I agree Joe,the guy who got swarmed had opportunity but he did not seem up to an altercation as he never postures to launch or reply.
With the guy with the glasses facing the camera we see all the classic puffing up ,constant forward pressure,constant verbal dialogue as he moves in,hands clenched,arms keep going up and out,chest puffed up,shoulders back,rapid breathing,shifting of weight on the feet as he gets closer and readies to fire off.

My money would be that the guy with the glasses fired off first as he was definately primed.
The other guy was to relaxed,hands open ,apparently not looking to fight.
(He did know how to cover his head up when the other guy came to give him a kicking,so he has been in that position before)
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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2010, 05:15:49 PM »

Tate, of Osmondthorpe Lane, told the court how the man approached him for cigarettes and became aggressive when he refused, calling bespectacled Tate "four eyes."

He said: "I had been slagged off for something because he did not get his own way."

Tate told judge Rodney Grant: "I wish I had just turned and gone."
Tate said he "saw stars" after the bottle was smashed over his head and thought the liquid from the bottle was his blood.


Bold emphasis added by me because we have a winner! He should have done just that. This whole thing was over a few cigarettes! Well, wait a minute, the guy did call him "four eyes".   ::)
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JimH

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2010, 05:41:39 PM »

it is hard to believe that, acoording to report,the guy who was kicked  was let to walk away  by the guy with the glasses as the guy with the glasses was primed for the fight.
According to the report the two men walked in seperate directions and then the guy in the light colored jacket ran at the guy with the glasses with a bottle ?
Police edited the video ,why was that part cut out ?

The guy in the light jacket turned to go several times and the guy with the glasses moved forward,went verbal,postured and grabbed at him.
I doubt the guy in the glasses let the other guy walk very far before it fired off.
The guy with the light jacket had the bottle in his hand for the whole event.

This guy Tate wanted the fight.
He definately held the other guy to get kicked.
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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2010, 05:45:37 PM »

There is no doubt that Tate wanted the fight. My point is that he should have taken his own advice and "just turned and gone". In the article he talks about how he has six kids at home and they need daddy. Well, daddy needs to stop being a prick and think about his kids before he gets in someone's face. Things could have gone much worse for old "four eyes".
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neljohn

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2010, 11:12:03 AM »

Surely a good preemptive strike would have given him a better chance. The signs where present arms splaying, closing the distance. When the two guys had the " interview" at what point would you guys intercept with a preemptive shot?

neljohn
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2010, 12:09:11 PM »

For Nel-personally the preemtive strike is a hard thing to discuss-i think that it has to do with the makeup of the victim-most "normal " people try to talk their way out of a physical altercation-i dont think its in most people makeup to see someone come and stand with arms splayed out and then the "victim fires one off at the aggressor- we teach in most schools to react -not strike when the other opponent just stands there mouthing off or looks (i say looks agressive)-there has to be a action for the victim to respond to-otherwise the "victim" probably would be cited for attacking-then its off to court to prove they were in fear of getting hurt/assaulted or worse

We teach about body language a lot- and how to react by moving out of the way/or preparing to strike -but we dont teach because a individual looks as if he is comming to hurt him/her
Even though we should be prepared to knock the shit out of them- ;D

Whitewolf (ELB) Speed of light
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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2010, 12:57:03 PM »

Both guys made a lot of errors during the "interview" part of the video, but it's hard to tell if there was an indicator that would have warranted a preemptive strike. Mr. Tate acted moronically by getting into the face of a man holding a beer bottle in his hand all the while holding his own weaponless arms at his sides, puffing his chest out, and giving Mr. Bottle a nice big face/head target to aim at. Luckily for Mr. Tate (who appears to be the aggressor here), Mr. Bottle didn't take advantage of his opportunity for a preemptive strike.

At the beginning of the actual physical confrontation, it looks as though Mr. Tate blows it once again. As the altercation occurs, we see Mr. Bottle running toward Mr. Tate with the bottle at the ready for a strike. Just as Mr. Bottle gets within striking distance, it appears that he hesitates for a second or two. THAT (IMO) is when Mr. Tate should have closed and launched an unrelenting attack until Mr. Bottle was unable or unwilling to continue with the fight. I'm sorry, but if you are running at me with a weapon at the ready, and with apparent real intention to cause me bodily harm, I'm not standing in what is the perfect range for that weapon - I'm gonna beat you like a rented mule.

I look forward to further opinions on this.
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JimH

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2010, 06:05:44 PM »

To me Mr Tate was the aggressor,working from that:
If I were the guy in the light jacket I would have gone with a pre-emptive strike/s on Mr Tate when I first turned to walk away,(at approx 2 second mark), and Tate grabbed me and continued to come at me closing the gap with verbal dialogue,(probably threats),Tate technically prevented me from leaving.
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2010, 07:02:28 PM »

Again right or wrong-Mr Tate was open for strike-Mr bottle beat him to the punch-
Mr tate needs to learn to read what is going on in the street-anyone holding  any kind of
expediant wpn has to thought of as a potential danger and treated as such- move out of danger OR preemtive strike-just dont stay there .
WW
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2010, 07:06:15 PM »

And--i was shown a tactic (i think i mentioned it here somewhere) its called Prayer-
Shown by Michael Depasquale Jr -
hand together in prayer stance -attacker comes with a swing-
victim strikes out at biceps and then palm strikes to face area-
then spike kick and continue on with movements if needed- or get out.
WW
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Webby

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2010, 07:16:47 AM »

I don't smoke, but I saw this and bought some cig's. If you want one just ask !

Seriously : Late night, alcohol fueled behaviour, abusive language ( no matter how petty if it's aimed to be personal it's taken that way ). They are like ingredients to a recipe for violence.

Webby ( being boring and staying safe )... 

 
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2010, 09:06:40 AM »

For Nel-personally the preemtive strike is a hard thing to discuss-i think that it has to do with the makeup of the victim-most "normal " people try to talk their way out of a physical altercation-i dont think its in most people makeup to see someone come and stand with arms splayed out and then the "victim fires one off at the aggressor- we teach in most schools to react -not strike when the other opponent just stands there mouthing off or looks (i say looks agressive)-there has to be a action for the victim to respond to-otherwise the "victim" probably would be cited for attacking-then its off to court to prove they were in fear of getting hurt/assaulted or worse

We teach about body language a lot- and how to react by moving out of the way/or preparing to strike -but we dont teach because a individual looks as if he is comming to hurt him/her
Even though we should be prepared to knock the shit out of them- ;D

Whitewolf (ELB) Speed of light

If your personal space has been invaded by an aggressor it is well within your rights to launch a pre-emptive strike as long as you felt that your life was in immediate danger.  You mention that we don’t teach people to attack an aggressor if he is mouthing off, but what if he is saying, “I am going to fuck you up.”  What if he is randomly checking his arcs of vision?  What if he is giving you a thousand yard stare?  These are all clues that you better pay attention to.

Remember, a pre-emptive strike is when you attack the bad guy based on his bad intentions- the danger indicators that you have decoded through the pre-contact phase of the fight.   An interception is when you time your attack at the early stages of his attack (he never actually completes his attack because you have beat him to the punch so to speak) and a counterattack is when he has launched an attack and you are forced to follow the force, redirect the force or meet the force immediately followed by an attack of your own.

Remember Bush’s pre-emptive strike on Iraq in Gulf War 2 was not based on Iraq attacking U.S. interests or previous battles.  This was a result of serious mouthing off from the Iraqis over several UN resolution disputes- now that was a pre-emptive strike.

Joe



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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2010, 09:47:57 AM »

@Joe Hubbard

Based on what can be seen on the video, if you were Mr. Bottle in this instance, and Mr. Tate was in your face saying "I'm going to fuck you up", would you have struck him preemptively? At what point would you have done so?

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Hock

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2010, 10:15:04 AM »

"And--i was shown a tactic (i think i mentioned it here somewhere) its called Prayer-
Shown by Michael Depasquale Jr -hand together in prayer stance -attacker comes with a swing-victim strikes out at biceps and then palm strikes to face area-"


If this prayer sounds new or special to you? Then you REALLY need to get...
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product425.html

and Hubbard's
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product328.html
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 11:49:53 AM by Hock »
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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2010, 10:52:33 AM »

Post deleted because I realize Hock was not referring to me in the previous post. I really gotta stop trying to read and post on this forum using the Blackberry.  :-[

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 06:09:07 PM by SIGnoramus »
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2010, 11:30:04 AM »

@Joe Hubbard

Based on what can be seen on the video, if you were Mr. Bottle in this instance, and Mr. Tate was in your face saying "I'm going to fuck you up", would you have struck him preemptively? At what point would you have done so?



- Yes

- 21:59:05

Joe
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SIGnoramus

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2010, 11:35:18 AM »

Thanks for the reply Mr. Hubbard. I appreciate being able to "pick the brains" of you, Hock, and the many other knowledgeable people on this forum.
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whitewolf

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Re: Video: Leeds brawl on CCTV
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2010, 05:35:03 PM »

Backing up a little- I was mentioning the Prayer tactic as it works well when teaching it to older females in my class-they can initiate a block -go to strike and get out-i know it has been around awhile but when teaching i attempt to use what hopefully will  work for them (also the police i teach) are using it now almost daily when interviewing in the court house or in the county jail-
I have gone over your methods a lot now and keep reviewing the different aspects you and hubbard mention-
WW
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