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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Author Topic: Crafty needs help  (Read 10301 times)

Crafty

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Crafty needs help
« on: August 14, 2010, 04:28:26 AM »

Im trying to study wrist throw can has anyone got any experience in this technique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2010, 07:09:11 AM »

On the vidio the instructor gave a good demo on how to do the move-
Crafty-look for a good school in your area that instructs in these type moves-
also ask JimH for some pointers-he should have experience as he studies/teaches tactics lke this
WW
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wisdom

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2010, 10:26:23 AM »

Well Hock's Joint lock DVd is the bomb for stuff like this..... and years ago...and probably still he taught a trouble shooting module that taught what to do if the stunt guy lifts his elbow to high or low during the throw.........but I can't remember if that is on the DVD......but probably....it's one of the coolest two disc sets he put out.....really breaks down the stuff joint by joint...
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Clifford Munson

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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2010, 02:44:52 PM »

I have experience with this lock and throw.
One thing I would like to point out is that you will not ,in most cases of dealing with an untrained street attacker,get them to fly up and over as in the clip.

Crafty,what is the qustion on the technique?
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2010, 03:06:41 PM »

Would you be able to take them to the ground if they came in with a knife attack by controling the hand
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 03:23:32 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDbu1A2uSI

This one but i would strike the hand first and more on the footwork for evasion but the way he takes his balance away i like akido but i want to mix it with my kali experience and see what i can come up with.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 03:28:01 PM by Crafty »
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2010, 06:45:47 PM »

So JimH what you are saying is hold the knife hand with your left- strike the back of the knife hand with your right (using back fist knuckles) dislage knife
or-continue twirling  to right go to ground into arm bar situation - and dislage knife-correct? WW
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »

Would you be able to take them to the ground if they came in with a knife attack by controling the hand

Yes, if they come at you like the guy in the video. I've used the technique during "alive!" (is that trademarked?) training and it was always something that fell into my lap while doing another technique rather than something I set out to do. Often the opportunity happened while the other guy was trying to counter.

The other thing is the way most people perform the technique it has the intentional flaw of allowing the uki to roll with it to give him a chance to get up and do it again. If possible you'd want to make sure that he'd at least land badly rather then roll and preferably be injured by the time you move to the finishing technique. Something as simple as stepping on the guys foot or locking his leg can be enough to help with a bad landing, or his elbow like in this video. There are a lot of variations on these themes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXdDuZHN7os&feature=related

These are both simpler and quicker than the Aikido versions.
A basic straight wrist lock take down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA_rFAs_Q-E&feature=related

A basic turning wrist lock take down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6QpzOrj0-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMM6IpfbgC0&feature=related


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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 04:45:08 AM »

Noload thanks for showing variations-males sense what you said- WW
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Webby

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:55:10 AM »

Try the books : Aikido and The Dynamic Sphere under the section on projections and for a more brutal version have a look at Toshishiro Obata's book Samurai Aikijutsu.

I've always gone for the one handed, my left hand on his right wrist, quick twist and push down. It's worked most times I've used it, but these where low level use of force situations not life and death. The action was moving pretty slow. I think all these techniques work best if the opponent has been weaken first.

Enjoy your training practice makes perfect !

Best of Luck..Webby     
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 05:02:25 PM »

No problem WW. I've found that some of the Chinese style guys look at joint locks as a part of the art and teach and use them along with strikes, low line attacks and leg attacks which fits pretty well with what I'm training. The Japanese arts seem to focus more on a few specific parts rather than a whole system. So for Aikido you get excellent lessons and training in movement but it's missing certain things like striking and decent attacks. IMO that is.
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 07:48:12 PM »

Noload- do you find it is hard to do a wrist  lock when the( opponent trainee) is going almost full speed? It appears that with a opponent using both hands it is hard to grab at one wrist?? WW
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 11:40:12 PM »

Thankyou

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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 08:37:54 AM »

The Chin na shows the close up method of doing the wrist lock properly but I do not like their lack of movement or the large space they keep between them when doing the lock to throw.

The first clip,top,showed the step in at angle and top slide to grab,notice the instructor is able to push the attackers arm forward and cause an overextension of the strike and an immediate turn back to itself and the lock / take down.
Too much space here also.

The second clip shows an arm /hand slide underneath the incoming strike /knife.
You have to roll over to the top to make the grab /push and rotate back to lock / throw.
If I were to use the arm/hand slide control from underneath,I would slide under to control direction as shown  but then continue the slide under and wrap my hand around the arm getting an elbow lock /break.

I would go with the top one,as it affords more control to redirect,push forward and bring back to lock and throw.
Good for strike and knife attacks.
You must work close and always close into the attacker.

WW explanation is on track.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:39:47 AM by JimH »
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »

JimH-i agree of the vidios the first one looks more sound to do-
also the closer the better  as outside his zone and trying to stop a knife seems harder to accomplish especially in a fast stab-i personally have been shown get the knife hand and other strikes at eyes in a clawing swipe or repeated very hard punches then attempt to dislage the wpn- WW
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2010, 07:56:54 PM »

Noload- do you find it is hard to do a wrist  lock when the( opponent trainee) is going almost full speed? It appears that with a opponent using both hands it is hard to grab at one wrist?? WW

If he's going full speed ahead and fully committed to the strike and where I can trap his arm and break his base or balance, then I can get it most of the time. If he's throwing jabs and dancing around then I've learned not to bother and go onto something else. I can't think of any time where I successfully grabbed a wrist and got a lock where the arm wasn't somehow already immobile, somewhat out of play or the other guy not over committed or stunned.

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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2010, 08:22:12 PM »

The Chin na shows the close up method of doing the wrist lock properly but I do not like their lack of movement or the large space they keep between them when doing the lock to throw.

I agree Jim, those seem to be just showing the mechanics of the wrist lock and are somewhat lacking as practical applications. It's a flaw of teaching that crops up but as long as we know of the flaw we should be OK.

Finally found a video that has kind of what I'm talking about, though I'm not thrilled with the presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfW40rNB5c

Shows breaking the base with the legs at 3:43, and a similar arm trap that I've been somewhat successful with at 6:45. Without having at least one of these, if not both, I've never pulled off a successful wrist lock on even a non-compliant training partner.

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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2010, 07:55:58 AM »

I believe that opponents should all be compliant.
That is they should be in no position to fully resist.
Strike them and soften them.
(Again that does not mean to beat them,just cause some pain and use it to advantage,in helping make a technique work)

Example:
Person throws a straight right
I use the top / first clip to redirect and control,as I step in and turn to face the same direction the attacker is moving in.
I would throw a quick kick to the back of opponents right knee and further take his balance,so now I do not have to fight him to apply the move as he/she has no power base.

I would prefer that a person throw a straight right in this case with intent ,as intent allows me to take advantage of his/her over extension and I can help it move more forward or take it in a semi circle to remove balance.
But
If the Person does not throw with intent and flicks the punches or throws with  a half hearted attempt to hurt me,I am already moving towards the person,at a slight outside angle,as I KNOW that if the punch is not with intent he will be pulling it back to reload.
When the half hearted punch returns to the rear to reload I AM THER already,I can catch the arm on retraction and then take it back and over for a wrist lock take down.

The human body works in a certain way and if we know how it will work or respond then we have and or can create an ability to make what we want to do happen.


That said,I do not force a singular technique to happen or work,I take what they give me and appreciate it for what it is,the end of the confrontation.


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redfive

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2010, 01:56:26 PM »

 These locks work great at a medium speed attack with alittle bit of oncoming movement, but If the attacker is really coming at you hard and thrust at a #5 stomach attack you will both miss each other if you side step out of the way. You will most likely miss the wrist and end up in an elbow wrap with him. If you just perry you will both crash into each other. That's if you just do the parry with one hand like in the first videos.  Remy taught this as a Palis-Palis movement or force force ( going with). As in going with it. He would parry this attack with his right hand going downward into a circle, but the left hand was following the right very closely and would catch the knife hand as your right hand circled it back upward. It almost looked like an ex block. But was actually a shortened hubod. This way you were more assured to catch the hand or lower arm if there was allot of forward travel in the attacker. Then you could step to the side at the same time and apply any of the locks. Ben Mangels and my first Jiujitsu instructor taught it a second way. The first way with little forward motion or if the attacker just stepped forward into you, you would do the parry and lock.  If he was running toward you and thrusted at you, we would do the parry, but forget about the arm and knife all together. By the time you do the parry and side step he is already beside you and you are moving behind him. From the right down ward parry, you bring your right hand up and grab his face/head. You circle behind him and the left is already grabbing the other side of his face. So both hand are on his face or around the chin or one up one low, grab some eyes. But he is still moving forward. So you then pull his neck back and down and plant his head into the ground. As he hits the ground you then check the weapon arm and disarm. Its a hard one to practice in class, even slow. It will really screw up a neck, and the landing is a real hard one.

                                       Redfive
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2010, 02:43:42 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NAdlw2txcs

This reference here they will work with correct training
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JimH

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2010, 03:23:40 PM »

clip 1,top clip:
When the strike or stab comes in,step into the attacker and slightly to the same side as the attacking limb
The hand comes down and REDIRECTS the striking limb or weapon bearing limb as I turn to face the same direction as the attacker in front of me,(if you want at this point drive your left foot into the rear or side of the attckers knee and drive down),it will not matter if I catch the incoming wrist,forearm,or near the elbow,the idea is to redirect the limb and the energy
the redirection is first forward to displace balance and then,(in this case,my left hand) will bring the attackers right arm around and in front of me and basically I feed the incoming limb  into my right hand which grabs the hand in the wrist lock
Then I turn into the attacker driving my right elbow into the attackers face ,(which helps me take them down and back,a little pain  always works),and I finish with a throw,break or take down,my choice of finish.
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redfive

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2010, 06:48:16 PM »

 OO boy Crafty. I can see Hock heading to the liquor cabinet after watching  the kerambit video. He loves the Kerambit. Anyway that looks good but full speed maybe 1 in a 1000000000 people could pull it off. That's if the knife thrust comes to a complete stop as the guy in the video did.  you would most likely cut your self with the attacking knife as you scooped it in front of your self. This is why sparring and force testing is so important. Most systems know these techniques but you wont see them in sparring or even in our knife and stick kill shots, you don't see these techniques. You have to be superman fast to get them. Now against an average Joe who is just trying to prove something to his friends or is alittle tipsy and takes a jab or poke at you, then yes. Against a crazy man who wont's to kill you just because that's what he does for fun. No. There is no stop in motion. That's been my complaint with Aikido. Hate to bring the UFC into this, but it really did straighten allot of this stuff out.

                                                            Redfive
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Crafty

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2010, 12:15:58 AM »

Ignore the kerembit  ;)

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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2010, 10:32:26 AM »

It's worse without the kerembit.

Too far away, the attacker is still somewhat mobile (even though he's gracious enough to just stand there) and I'm not sure if he really has those wrist locks secured.

Though the instructor is looking sharp in his very trendy tactical wear.
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Dawg

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2010, 03:09:58 PM »

you would most likely cut your self with the attacking knife as you scooped it in front of your self. 

Agreed; Dawg no likee. >:(

clip 1,top clip:
When the strike or stab comes in,step into the attacker and slightly to the same side as the attacking limb
The hand comes down and REDIRECTS the striking limb or weapon bearing limb as I turn to face the same direction as the attacker in front of me,(if you want at this point drive your left foot into the rear or side of the attckers knee and drive down),it will not matter if I catch the incoming wrist,forearm,or near the elbow,the idea is to redirect the limb and the energy
the redirection is first forward to displace balance and then,(in this case,my left hand) will bring the attackers right arm around and in front of me and basically I feed the incoming limb  into my right hand which grabs the hand in the wrist lock
Then I turn into the attacker driving my right elbow into the attackers face ,(which helps me take them down and back,a little pain  always works),and I finish with a throw,break or take down,my choice of finish.

I do basically the same thing, but as I acquire the opponent's weapon bearing hand with both of mine, I pull my opponent forward (once again, displacing his balance), bringing my hands close to my body. Then, as I turn to face my opponent (actually, instead of turning CCW from 12 to 6 o'clock, it's more like 4 o'clock), I keep my hands close to my body while turning his palm towards him, then sharply towards the ground. I'm too far out for an elbow strike to the face, but I'm also too far out for any mid phase counterstrike. Any forward energy on his part, and he breaks his own wrist ("If you would've just fell down, that wouldn't hurt so bad!" ;D).

I like the idea of the elbow strike, though. I'll try that tomorrow with the guys. We're overdue for some incidental contact injuries. Thanks!

 
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"Whether you're paranoid or not, they're coming for you."  - Dawg

whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2010, 06:40:38 AM »

Red-your explanation of the use of the head from the rear-good one-also-
a deputy in my class told us of a tactic learned from old ranger school-when you get behind and in rear choke -you pull him back and throw your legs out so you land on yor stomach-still holding on to opponent-snapping his head forward finishes the fight-
he said they practised it on sawdust and one hand actually was over neck but holding chest area-so no one was hurt-
JimH-we practise a knife thrust just about same way you discribed-also practise holding knife hand as u discribed - and spinning to right and going down into arm bar-hitting knife hand and elbowing to rear of neck-and then continue as needed to subdo opponent
(we advise about 2nd opponent in area)
(One of the deputies went through a Belgium special unit course and the other went thriugh a legion course-both these officerrs have a great mind set about a real fight)WW
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2010, 09:31:01 AM »

I was just watching some karateka working on kote gaeshi (aka wrist lock) and noticed the students making the same mistakes. Nothing major but still a few things that get the students spinning their wheels.

1. Bad angles. A good kote gaeshi should have a 90 degree angle at the wrist and at the elbow. The arm should look something like a three sided box when done.

2. Too much focus on the wrist. People don't notice that the wrist is initiating movement in the elbow and shoulder which is often what makes people go boom.

3. Not making sure the elbow of the "attacker" is inside their body. A lot of beginners get the wrist part correct but then let the attackers elbow slip to the outside of their body and losing the lock. If you're going straight in get the other guys elbow to brace against their own body ( I try for the hip). The other way is besides the rolling up of the wrist is the twist that moves the elbow across the other guys body.
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whitewolf

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »

Noload can u recommend any special vidio that will show what u are talking about?
thanks WW
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noload

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Re: Crafty needs help
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2010, 04:40:52 PM »

You don't really need a special video as you can see it properly done many places. The trick I've found for teaching this is to show the student how to recognize if they're doing it correctly. It's almost a check list for how to do it right.



In the picture as the guy applying the Kote Gaeshi is turning the hand of his opponent to his opponents left, the opponents elbow is moving to his right, low and to the opponents inside. You can also see the 90 degree angles that you want to get. (BTW, there are straight arm versions also).

In this video the gentleman demonstrating is doing it mostly right, but by how he's explaining it I don't think he really understands how the technique works. But the video shows both the right and wrong ways of doing it, so look for the technique working correctly, working but needing a lot effort, and then not really working at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbgBi6QhC5E&feature=channel

@1:55 you can see the right angles which is what you want, and  @9:55 you can see the woman's elbow going outside of her body.

BTW, Kote Gaeshi means "forearm return", which is a good description of what's going on.
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