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[whitewolf]

Any type BDU/military type pants-t  shirts-wrestling shoes-works for me-if they want to wear a gee or shorts also no  problem-wearing a badge while working out is stupid-
add mouth piece and cup if it gets to going to  ground -oh i forgot bring your VLB with bat inside if  needed. whitewolf (ELB)   

[noload]

...and that I believe would be CDT (we may as well say...)
Tom fell into some money and was able to start a regular, color ad campaign. (The real, secret ingrediant to success and notoriety) As far as that big complex and those bodyguard school color ads? I am not to sure the big advertised shootem' up, ultimate seminar ever actually occured? There was no date listed and I heard they waited until enough people pre-registered (big $$$) before even starting. I heard it is has not happened. I could be wrong! I know many NJ Hapkido people (I am from NJ originally) who liked Tom in the old Hapkido days and they liked what they did. Now? No.

I also interface with all kinds of cops, all over the world, and CDT really isn't a blip on the police radar screen. One example? CDT is never advertsied in ANY police magazine, and I have to get all of them to stay abreast of things. The ad appeal is to martial artists and the MA magazines- in particular-the MA business ones, a place where school owners can be reached and expensive, blood-sucking, franchises can be sought.

In the big picture,
I get all over and talk to hundreds of people a month. Internally, many of these known organizations are at a slow crumble inside. Over-priced, restrictive and some based on riduculous concepts. Some of the big ad names we see in magazines are secretly scrambling to innovate and survive.

"There is a sucker born every minute." These suckers need to be found, sold a franchise and then sucked into bankruptcy, just in time for the next birth.....and so it goes...

Hock

A friend of mine who is a dojo owner bought into the CDT franchise and lost money. He was pretty serious about making it work even offering a weekly class that would last at least for 2 hours and many times even longer. We'd go over the "secret" instructor tapes see what looked workable and practice those, ignored the nonsense ones that looked more suitable for a demonstration. One of the things that kept some of his karate students away was all the pain they were afraid of feeling.

As self defense CDT sucked (for many reasons) but many of the techniques were good replacements for ones that could injure a training partner. Was fun to use them during one steps & sparring.

Surprised nobody mentioned my personal favorites, Hwarangdo and Echanis. Dr. Bang looked like he had some mad skills but the entire monk thing was like the plot of a cheap chop socky flick.

[whitewolf]

Hock- I think BB has a special  staff who  writes the advertising for them to sucker in the unenitiated and young so the mag  will make $$$

When I travel in Europe I look at the self defense mags that are in English-for the most  part they seem to be more honest in their articles and advertisng-what do you think??
WW

[noload]

Black Belt is releasing the Enchanis books again, with some mystical verbage, like, "secrets hidden away because of shock"...something like that...

Hock

Ahhh, the infamous Black Book on knife fighting. I have that one along with the other two and there isn't much in them that's shocking but it is flowery. I am still surprised how the Echanis mythology keeps on going.

Here's an old post from the Blade Forums by Bob Duggan on Echanis. Duggan was one of the first HRD black belts but was defrocked by Dr. Bang.

07-23-2001, 08:14 AM
By the Swallow

Mahone, "My relationship with Echanis". You provoked some very old menories that have been stirring around in my little head, since I fell on to this Thread. It has taken me a few days to sort them out, and I had to dig out my old notebooks. I confess to ambivalence. As Donnelly posted on the his thread, there is the Myth and there is the Reality.
It is never simple to figure out what part is myth and what part is reality. Echanis is more than an enigma, he is a phenomenon. Here we are discussing a man nearly twenty-five years after his rather messy assassination, and it is as if it occurred last month. People collect his books as priceless jems while others consider them the flotsam and jetsam of martial arts detritus. I am afraid that I am to be counted among the latter.

But let me tell you about the phenomenon. I will start with last night. I had dinner last night with Pete Dordal, a 1984 ESI graduate and a very bright and successful Protection Specialist. When he came to ESI, he was a Force Recon Marine; for four years, Dortal was Marine Sniper and special tactics Instructor in all manor of stealth. He was an admirer of Echanis; used his material in instruction, especially in regards to Sentry Takeout (unfortunately, Randy Wanner should have received the credit here, but that is part of the puzzle). During our dinner, the subject of Echanis came up, and I mentioned the discussion going on in this Thread. I, of course, expressed my distain for the phenomenon and the man, and made reference to his "Love of Death" pointing out that he may have acquired it while he served in Vietnam as a Sniper with "29 Confirmed Kills" Ref. Echanis. Dordal looked puzzled, and said, "there is no reference to Echanis being a Sniper." Dordal would know because he made a careful study of Vietnam Snipers both Marine and Army as part of his instuctional syllabus. Then he said, "Was he in Vietnam?" and I said, "well ****, he said he was in Vietnam and that he was a Sniper with 29 confirmed kills." I believed it because it confirmed the reasons that I didn't like him. Then I had to laugh at myself. I never investigated because the myth fit my pre-conceived notions of the man and his persona.

It also fit that he hired out to work for Somosa; I didn't like him for that either, but that is not the point. As for his anti-communism, he would have just as happily worked for the Sandinistas, if the money was better. He was assassinated because he decided to attach his star to a conspiracy by the top Field Commader of the Army, Jose Alegrett to over throw Somosa...the person who paid Echanis' salary. The conspiracy was uncovered, and Somosa had the problem snuffed out....but Somosa got his a few years later in Uruguay when some revolutionaries hit him with a rocket that ripped his armoured limosine to shreds, and the occupant's heads with it.

Well, what does all this prove? Nothing I suppose; nothing has ever been proven much less investigated, but I choose to believe it. It fit the myth of Echanis.

In my opinion, he was not a skilled martial artists, but the myth says he was phenomenonal. The myth says he was a warrior, a Vietnam Vet with a career of 29 kills; the vets say, they never heard of him. The myths say that he was the first Ninja; others think that he was a good publicists. He knew how to get published. Even when he took all the money left in the La Habra school, and disappeared into the night, ending up in Fort Bragg to teach classes in hand to hand combat, stealth and other fun things, Joo Bang Lee welcomed hiim back when he saw the opportunity to reach elite military forces with little known art of Hwa Rang Do. So, with approval from Black Belt in hand, Mike posed with the Grand Master to prove his lineage. Those of us around the Headquarters scatched our collective heads, and shrugged, "it is the same ol', same ol'". Its business.

During this period, I was spending more and more time in Colorado, and the Aspen Academy of Martial Arts. In 1980, I started ESI and never returned to California.

By 1986, my relations with Hwa Rang Do and the Lee Family had deteriorated to point of no return. Coincidentally, it started over an article in Black Belt by Henry Lee, Joo Bang Lee's eldest son, who wrote that Mike Echanis was the first American student of Hwa Rang Do. Now, I took umbrage at this obvious mis-statement of Hwa Rang Do history, and I wrote an open letter to Henry and all the other instructors. Henry responded in typical Little Master form, and I engaged him. It is one of my favorite blood sports. It was probably motivated by ego, jealousy and other cheap shot base human emotions, but it was also a lie.

After Henry suggested that I prove my loyalty to Hwa Rang Do, by appointting his father, Joo Bang Lee, President of ESI, and I suggested that Henry Lee was "a vain glorious pimp" and in the same letter, I wrote uncautiously, "You presumptous ass!" I was no longer held in high esteem in Downey. It was another decade before I became a criminal, and my dastardly acts posted on the Web. I note with irony that after ten years or more of being blacklisted by Black Belt, Joo Bang Lee is on the cover of current issue of Black Belt, and Henry Lee is demonstrating technique on a willing opponent...always the best kind.

So, all the little threads come together here. Odd, I think, but you never know what comes across the path, or which way you will turn until you are faced with a choice. I have made a number of them, and many of them very bad ones. Mahone, I am not going to re-tell my colorful revolutionary days because I published those in Gung Ho in 1984, and left those ideas in their grave more than a quarter century ago. But I just want to make one last comment about Myth and Reality regarding Echanis.

In the case of Echanis, the Myth is great, and the Reality quite another story. Yet, I must admit that the myth of Echanis has inspired a lot of martial artists to pursue their own dream. One cannot deny it, and it is a good thing. So, I understand the feeling of some who see stripping the Myth as cheap and rank.

Myth has driven many of us towards some unattainable dream. I personally participated in it as did others. I fomented other myths regarding my art, Hwa Rang Do. When I wrote the introduction to Joo Bang Lee's "The Ancient Art of Hwa Rang Do", I fostered the myth of the direct lineage descent of the ancient warrior art and the modern creation of Joo Bang Lee. I wanted to believe that myth; it sustained me in a way that no other could. To believe that this ancient knowledge was preserved by hermit monks for hundreds of years gives the art a completeness, a historic connection to something of value, almost holy. But alas, it is a myth, like a lot of other things I have believed in. Should I make fun of it? Cheapen it by pointing out the historic impossibility? Discourage others from believing? Well my friends, I need a little help on that question.

Mahone, thanks for the provocation. Farang
Bob Duggan


BTW, Here's Duggan's bio...
http://www.esi-lifeforce.com/about-us/staff/officers-owners-and-governing-board.html

[seanross]

I haven't been on this thread for a while.  I notice someone objected to quoting anything from bullshido.com because there was an over-the-top post about wishing someone was raped and because the site tends to favor mixed martial arts and reality based self defense styles.  Well....  There are articles about various lesbian sex practices on wikipedia for which I have little use in my day job, but I still use the site because it also has articles about functionals of random variables - and other stuff I find relevant and useful.  If bullshido.com just really yanks your chain -- forget I mentioned it.  Otherwise, it might have something occasionally useful on it. Personally, I like the videos of real street fights.  They don't look like karate tournaments.  They don't look like mma matches, though mma is a little closer.

I also find the admission of myth building by noload intriguing.  I wonder how many people would go to church on Sunday if it was, "Just treat each other decent, OK?"  Creation, God, hell, forgiveness, ritual make it all so much more interesting.  I don't mind the myth as long as the core, "treat each other decently" gets in there too.  Same with Martial arts.  My tai chi school has a "secret clan" into which I was "adopted" and we bow and have stories about the founders, blah, blah, blah.  If that helps you have fun and show up to work out - good for you.  On the other hand, if the myth helps you to disrespect everyone else and rip people off, then I have a problem.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.

[arnold]

Sorta like Uncle Nicky and the Easter Bunny. Here you have it all. Quasi religious holiday, children's story, infatuation, chocolate. But most of all, Nicky in his pink bunny suit!

[Nick Hughes]

Do not mock the bunny tin-head. 

Yer Uncle Knuckles

[Benjamin Liu]

I bought "Knife Fighting/Knife Throwing For Combat" recently, mainly because it is a "classic" and I collect books.  Some act as if it is junk and others as if it is the best knife-fighting book ever written, and I've seen originals go for hundreds of dollars, so, to know the truth, spending $12.00 or so on Amazon wasn't a big deal.  There is nothing special, it is mostly what I'd expect from a (non-FMA) martial arts book teaching knife use.  IMO the movements are too big.  I've seen worse in the MA magazines.  SOme have said that rolling with a knife is too complex, but if you know how to roll then it is just rolling while holding a knife, though I'd agree that if someone is not trained to roll it would be difficult to learn to do so, especially with a knife, from a book.

In short, it isn't the worst book on knife fighting, but it certainly isn't the best.  I don't get why it was "banned" by Ohara.  It would have sold all these years like the other two in the series, and it isn't some super-secret or super-deadly manual or anything like that.  Considering that it was out of print for many years, they couldn't have been using the marketing strategy to restrict a product for "police only" to create demand and then release it to the public.

I read an article by one John LaTourrette, one of Echanis' instructors, who said that Echanis wrote the books so he'd get publicity for his mercenary work, and that he hardly got any money from them.  Before that I assumed that the concept of writing a book as marketing for your real business was a new one.

[Benjamin Liu]

This has been read a lot lately by guests...

Hock

That is probably due to the reference to the Bullshido rape thread, which is what this thread has in common to the old WWII thread that started up again in the military combatives section.

I haven't been on this thread for a while.  I notice someone objected to quoting anything from bullshido.com because there was an over-the-top post about wishing someone was raped and because the site tends to favor mixed martial arts and reality based self defense styles.  Well....  There are articles about various lesbian sex practices on wikipedia for which I have little use in my day job, but I still use the site because it also has articles about functionals of random variables - and other stuff I find relevant and useful. 

There is a big difference here.  Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia, which by definition should cover just about everything whether people agree with it or not.

It also shouldn't be used as an authoritive source of information since anyone can edit it.  I've seen articles that look like kids added their cartoon fantasies to real-life topics, something that happens in the martial arts articles.  Usually science-related articles are safe from such tampering, but when looking up info on whales for a co-worker who is interested in them, the Sperm Whale article had some realy idiotic "facts" and was obviously edited as a joke.

I mainly find it useful to find some info on a topic I don't know anything about to point me in a direction to find other info on it.

Bullshido, on the other hand, is full of the types of attitudes that are shown in their rape thread.  I've read various Bullshido threads over the years, and those types of posts are typical of the atmosphere over there, it is just that the suggestion of a self-defense instructor being raped as being a good thing is the worst thing I've read on a martial arts forum and low even for Bullshido.

[noload]

I also find the admission of myth building by noload intriguing.  I wonder how many people would go to church on Sunday if it was, "Just treat each other decent, OK?"  Creation, God, hell, forgiveness, ritual make it all so much more interesting.  I don't mind the myth as long as the core, "treat each other decently" gets in there too.  Same with Martial arts.  My tai chi school has a "secret clan" into which I was "adopted" and we bow and have stories about the founders, blah, blah, blah.  If that helps you have fun and show up to work out - good for you.  On the other hand, if the myth helps you to disrespect everyone else and rip people off, then I have a problem.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.

What surprises me about mythology in the martial arts isn't that it exists, but that it exists where I didn't expect it. It's common in many now traditional martial arts and has been there forever, but what surprises me is that it's also flourishing in the reality based MA arena. Another surprise was the type and extent of the mythology being created by some of these guys; They're supermen with more missions under their belts than many full time operators, they're better trained and know more than full time operators. All the while running their business and holding down a day job.
The last surprise for me was how many professionals you'd think would know better bought into some of the BS.

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.
Not sure about that. Doing things in the martial arts because it's traditional is one thing, but selling a myth as if it's the truth is another.

[JimH]

Mike Echanis was never a Ranger nor was he ever a Special Forces operator.
(Mike may have served in the Army,got to the rank of E-3 ,but was never awarded an MOS???)

Mike did teach a hand to hand course at the JFK Warfare center to some Special Forces members.

Mike is believed to have had a connection with or was connected to the CIA in some fashion,possible through Solder of Fortune Mag, and this is how he came to be in Nicaragua.

A myth  Can be :
An extreme of an event.
An Extreme of a persons deeds.
An imaginary or unverifiable existence of an Event or Deed.

To Bad Too Many find the need to develop Imaginary Deeds and they become Myths because those who back them never check them and their claims out.

[seanross]

It isn't the myth.  Its what you do with it that counts.
Not sure about that. Doing things in the martial arts because it's traditional is one thing, but selling a myth as if it's the truth is another.

Yeah, thats the rub.  If you don't believe the myth is true to a certain extent, it loses its power.  If the local evangelical protestant church were to say, "God, Jesus and salvation are myths we use to help us be better people." they would be down to a handful of members.

Even the idea that we do certain things in the martial arts because they are traditional - is likely a myth.  We have some idea of what was really traditional in Tai Chi - because it was invented less than 150 years ago and there are family documents.  Just how far back do the records go on some of the other martial arts?  Do we really know what was or was not traditional? Or is it more accurate to say we know what our teacher and maybe his teacher tell us?

[JimH]

God,Jesus and Salvation maybe myths but they were not creation of God or Jesus,they were the stories created and told by countless others about things they related to a power Greater than themselves,and the live of Jesus is written as depicted by others not written to taut himself. (as some self creators of Martial arts/self defense Do)

Tradition alone does not make something a myth.
Tradition just means it is supposed to be as it was created and handed down,roughly,in the manner the developer of the art saw fit.
But
Everyone who becomes a teacher changes adds and subtracts from the way they were taught,(just human nature)
So
We are the product of our Teachers,not of tradition,though the core art maybe  traditional.
Our students will be the product of us and our knowledge base as applied to the traditional core art.

The Myth of an art would be the acts of one person or the stories of one person
such as a fighter who comes upon a samurai and catches the sharp Blade in his hands and defeats the Samurai.
or
A person who proclaims to actually catch Bullets in his teeth.
(now back in the day of Aaron Banks shows in NY there was a guy who entered the ring and Supposedly caught a .22 round in a metal cup in his mouth,lol)

People who create and perpetuate their OWN Myth Status  as being the worlds greatest (whatever) are usually BS artists.

[seanross]

Ok.  Now I understand the distinction.  You (and I) are OK with myths relating to historical or heavenly figures so long as they are used to motivate people to train and learn, but not with someone who makes themselves out to be more than human.

Agreed then.

And now, off to cook my dinner with a glance of my heat-ray vision.

[Hock]

Fun to re-read!

Hock