Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • October 20, 2018, 03:47:25 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: Survival Point Shooting  (Read 19401 times)

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2010, 05:37:55 PM »

"I don't think thousands and thousands of NYPD Officers lied when they participated in the SOP 9 study, and said that they did not use sight shooting, and that most all fired with the strong hand, and that reloads were not needed."


NO ONE disagrees about "point shooting." No sense arguing about it, debating it, because you are debating no one.

Hock

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2010, 09:16:53 PM »



..........

As to the comment about the hostage target. Did not know that it was supposed to represent a hostage situation. Never had seen one, until that day when I bought and used it for my first 5 shots of the day. Just thought it looked cool.

I just point-n-pull with my middle finger as fast as I can point-n-pull.

If I had known it was it was a hostage situation and I had a pistol, i'd shoot for the legs - or tell the hostage to go limp and fall down - or if I had the guts like the Chinese policewoman, i'd run up and shoot the SOB.



Yep, looked cool. 

Sorry, this post especially tied to the first post lost you all creditability with me.     Your idea of what to do in this situation is scary.

Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2010, 09:26:57 PM »

I'll go shoot aerials with you...  I'll aim, you point-n-shoot.   I'll win more dollars.

(Million shotgunner can't be wrong)   


Aim and shoot is ALWAYS more accurate that point shooting.

However, certain situations DEMAND point shooting.  But, it is not when accuracy counts.

There is a REASON that those funky manufacturers put sight on pistols and rifles....

Can you hit what you need to hit?

Can you hit it consistently,

How accurate do you need to be?

Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight.


There's a whole lot of other stuff in this thread, but this covers most of it.




Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Kentbob

  • JOAT
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Sound the horn and call the cry
    • Antrim Self-Protection
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2010, 09:46:14 AM »

You're really going to tell me what fails in CQB situations?  I think it's obvious which of us has more experience in real life CQB here...why don't you go find somewhere else to be an armchair commando?

Kent
Logged
"Specialization is for insects."-Robert A. Heinlein

http://antrimmasp.blogspot.com/

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2010, 10:29:05 AM »

And as Massod Ayoob likes to remind us (for decades now) when you "point shoot" you are still aiming.

Hock

GTC-554

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 32
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2010, 09:57:27 PM »

Ayoob has also said that people he has interviewed, who have been in shootings, most of the time the point shooters missed their attackers and the sighted shooters hit their attackers.  I have also trained with Jim Cirillo, and Jim would teach how to use the top of the gun to get some kind of index if your visionwas impaired.  Jim was also a sight shooter, as are Ken Hackathorn and Chuck Taylor, both combat veterans.
Logged
"The world is a dangerous place to live — not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein



"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."
Marcus Aurelius

5shot

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2010, 10:07:15 PM »

Nice responses and a good New Year to all.

Here's a link to an article: Let's take the gloves off: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agloves.htm

And here's one to an article: Do you have a death wish? http://www.pointshooting.com/1adeath.htm

And here's one to a vid on survival point shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk

Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 08:48:36 AM by 5shot »
Logged

Black Knife

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • Python Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2011, 01:31:07 AM »

First of all point shooting or instinctive does work. It has been proven that when a person is faced with a life threatening situation such as someone shooting at you the body will go into survival mode. You will not close one eye and aim. We all have seen police videos of shoot outs and the officer misses all his shots. Why....because they were taught on a gun range to hit paper targets using their sights. Well targets don't shoot back so when they face a suspect that is armed with a gun and is pointing it them they miss suspect because they get tunnel vision.

Now as far as using the middle finger to shoot is nonsense......you have no control with the weapon. Point shooting is done in a low isosceles stance with both arms locked out in front of you and shoot at the target with both eyes open. The range is 0 to 20 feet...anything farther you use sights....

In this video I am shooting at the steel target with both eyes open…..I can shoot this way about 40 feet from the target. However most shoot outs occur at close ranges so I usually practice at 10 feet.  Of course this is just my opinion and I am sure some will disagree.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGob6IOI-PU
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 09:28:18 AM by Black Knife »
Logged
"The worst type of enemy to encounter is one that does not avoid death but welcomes it"

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2011, 10:53:53 AM »

I CANNOT find my sights and target with both eyes open. I see two guns and a blurry target. It is something to do with my eyes and vision and age. But in the pinch, and I have been in pinches, I think both my eyes were open. I cannot 100% swear to that, but I think both my eyes were open. I have never shot and hit anyone but I have tried and missed people, but I really don't think I missed because both my eyes were open or one eye closed. These were on the move and very situational and very circumstantial.

I for one, am not a candidate to leave both my eyes open during a "Hail Mary" pistol shot. Too blurry. I am not alone on that.
 
More on this subject here-
http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/binocular-monocular/index.htm
This article made quite a pass though all the police web pages.

Hock
I really need to get the old Cirillo training film from Paladin because I read his second book and enjoyed it. I haven't yet located his definitive advice on shooting under stress and would like to have it. This guy has been in some shoot-outs through time. These other "combat vets" I don't know what that means exactly.

Kentbob

  • JOAT
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Sound the horn and call the cry
    • Antrim Self-Protection
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2011, 03:25:07 PM »

My experience shooting close quarters, at sniper school, and on various three-hundred meter popup ranges is that I need to close one eye in order to accurately shoot at a target past fifty meters.  Close than fifty meters and I don't even have to bring my rifle up to the accepted shooting position, at the shoulder, in order to accurately hit.  I can shot from the hit or underarm position with a rifle, automatic rifle, or machine gun and hit targets that are inside of fifty meters.  A high percentage?  No.  But at that range I have to get rounds headed in his direction before he gets rounds headed in my direction.  Will this work for everyone?  I can't say, and I wouldn't say.  I am only sure of what works for me.  Outside of fifty meters I need to bring the rifle up to my shoulder and access the sights.  I might even have to take a knee to do it, I'm not sure.  I don't recall if I've ever tried to hit targets past fifty meters while standing.  If they were shooting at me, I'd probably do some snap-shots on the run, rather than stop to take up a good position and return fire.  I learned that in my time at Bragg...when the bad guys have a bead drawn on you, seek cover first, then return fire.  You may go to return fire and have a malfunction of some sort, which you probably won't live to clear if you don't seek cover first. 

But I digress.  With pistols, it's a whole different story.  Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim.  Misses count, but I'll never be able to miss fast enough to win a gunfight. Snap-shots might be okay initially, but aimed fire at that distance is a much better bet.  Inside of ten meters, with my personally owned pistol, I can be pretty sure of getting a hit, somewhere on the bad guy, without needing to use the sights.  Inside of five meters I feel confident I could do it with a pistol in each hand, if necessary. 

When shooting at any kind of appreciable range, though, I will absolutely close one eye in order to shut out the noise that having both eyes open causes.  It's a lot easier for me to focus with only one eye open, and I think that my scores at the ranges have been pretty consistent with this approach, which tells me it's the technique for me to use in combat as well.

Kent
Logged
"Specialization is for insects."-Robert A. Heinlein

http://antrimmasp.blogspot.com/

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2011, 03:59:14 PM »

"Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim."

What do you see when you do this? Do you see a "ghost gun?" beside the real gun?

Hock

Kentbob

  • JOAT
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Sound the horn and call the cry
    • Antrim Self-Protection
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2011, 05:09:26 PM »

Umm...honestly, it's been so long since I shot my pistol I can't remember.  My brother keeps wanting me to go shooting with him...but I'm with you on this one; shooting paper targets holds no appeal.

Kent
Logged
"Specialization is for insects."-Robert A. Heinlein

http://antrimmasp.blogspot.com/

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2011, 03:36:18 PM »

"Outside of ten to fifteen meters I will absolutely access the sights, usually with both eyes open, but I will take time to aim."

What do you see when you do this? Do you see a "ghost gun?" beside the real gun?

Hock

No, sort of, not really.   soft focus on the front sight will keep this from happening.

Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Black Knife

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • Python Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2011, 04:43:44 PM »

I don't use sights at all when doing point shooting.....I look at the target only. That is the way I was taught. The people that I train don't have a problem doing it either so I know it is not hard to learn.
Logged
"The worst type of enemy to encounter is one that does not avoid death but welcomes it"

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »

If I have to do a little moving and shooting on some courses and the targets are close and body size, I kind of forget to look at my sights sometimes. Do just fine. I'll bet a lot of people do and may not notice it.

I was shooting about three weeks ago and we had some targets out at the 50 yard line and each shot I took was Hail Mary, Zen moment, breather (but I had to close one eye)

Hock

Hawkeye

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 34
Re: Survival Point Shooting
« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2011, 11:01:17 AM »

Many years ago I started training myself to keep both eyes open when I shoot. My theory being (right or wrong) that it would give me a bit more peripheral vision and try to disipate some of the tunnel vision you can get in a deadly force encounter.

In my own personal AAR's of a situation I notice that I do still get some tunneling when I draw on someone but I "think" it's a little less than it was years ago. Both eyes open could be part of it but I suppose experience, also.

My PD issues us the Glock 22 .40 cal and prior to about 8 years ago, we carried the S&W 4506 which was a huge stainless steel .45 cal. Great gun but we were getting some smaller officers and they were having a hard time with the size of the 4506.
Plus, replacement parts were getting more expensive, didn't make that exact model anymore, harder to find training opportunities for armorers, etc.

I do personally find the Glock to be more "pointable".

I also carry an AR15 at work. I tend to switch between one eye or two eyes on that. Since we're not allowed telescopic sites (relfex is okay but it can't magnify) we only shoot out to 100 yards.

We shoot photo-type bad guy targets at full human size. I hit what I'm aiming at 100 yds whether I use one or two eyes, but I find it easier to concentrate using one eye at those ranges.  Gets considerably easier as the range decreases.

At some of the closer range stuff (inside 15-20 feet I guess) we'll shoulder the rifle but shoot without sites.

Hock, why originally started to respond to this post was what you wrote about seeing the "ghostgun". If I don't focus on something with both eyes open, I'll get that sometimes. I generally focus on the front-site or occasionally on the target; either way gets rid of the ghost for me.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
 

Download