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  • May 23, 2012, 05:34:16 AM
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Author Topic: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense  (Read 1224 times)

Curran

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Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« on: May 14, 2005, 10:32:28 AM »

Whilst in Germany I couldnt  help but notice the availability of pepper sprays and mace for sale as well as other weapons.

How effective are pepper sprays and mace for self defense ?.
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Hock

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2005, 07:30:58 PM »

How effective are pepper sprays and mace for self defense ?.

I have hosed a few folks.
Works on most folks (and dogs)

But there are weird, odd stories of them not working.

Hock

Trembula

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2005, 07:41:15 PM »

It doesn't work on fowl though... so if you are ever facing off against a bunch of angry roosters or an escaped emu, you are (eeegsh, this is really, really bad... 8)) going to be "plucked"
 ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
- Dan

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Hock

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2005, 07:44:46 PM »

But, let me get have a few whiskeys some night and I tell ya the story of the big drunken party of cops (back in the ohhh 1980's-the statute of limitations is expired) where several fellows had stun guns dueling matches.

Good God that was entertaining!

Hock

Nick Hughes

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2005, 07:32:51 AM »

Curran,

I don't rate them. 

Number 1.  Most people buy it, stick it on their key ring and don't train with it.  When the time comes to use it they're so busy fumbling for the controls they either can't get it to work and/or they hose themselves.

Number 2.  I don't want to use something in self defense that requires me to stick my finger up and test the wind direction first.  (Saw it in Marseille one night which has a viscious wind called "the Mistral"  Someone sprayed one, went back on them, and then people all down the street were being effected...all in the opposite direction of the intended target)

Number 3.  You will get some on you...as will any of your mates that happen to be trying to assist (in the event of LEOs)  If you've been through the military or PD training and know what to expect it's not so bad...in the event of a civilian getting some on them they'll think the world has come to an end.

Number 4.  There are some people it just plain doesn't work on.  Cops here hit a guy with it, broke two asps over his legs, bent another one

Number 5.  If you try using it in a car at someone outside your window it will blow back inside the car and get you not him/them.

N
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seanross

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2005, 11:03:17 AM »

I might also add it is not a good idea to use Mace indoors.

My wife once attended a self defense seminar in which the use of pepper spray was discussed.  The instructor recommended testing the freshness of ones mace by spraying a small amount into a styrofoam cup.  Fresh mace was supposed to dissolve the bottom of the cup.  My wife came home and wanted to test her pepper spray, so she went into the bathroom and sprayed a little into a cup :o  :'( We opened a window on our way running out of the house.  The indoor air was clear in a half an hour or so!

On a more serious note, you may remember the case of trampling deaths at a nightclub last year.  Two bouncers tried to break up a fight at a crowded nightclub using pepper spray.  Several people were trampled to death as everyone tried to escape the fumes.

Another personal story.  11 years ago in Orlando Florida, I cut someone off in very slow traffic.  The person got along side of my car and started yelling at me and then threw a plate of food across his car and into my car, hitting me in the head.  With crab salad dripping off my face, I couldn't see to drive, so I looked out of the one corner of my glasses not dripping with salad oil and saw a drive way.  I pulled off.  My assailant took that to mean I wanted to pull off the road and fight, so he pulled off too and block my car so I couldn't pull forward, jumped out of his car and walked toward me telling me all the things he was going to do to my face.  At that instant, I had three options come to mind:

Plan #1, jump out of the car (in Navy uniform) and fight the guy.  The headlines "Naval Officer fights local man" flashed through my mind along with the look on my commanding officers face as I had to explain this to him.  At that time I had been training in Kungfu for only a year or so and didn't really trust my empty hand skills anyway.

Plan #2, stay in my car and get my face pounded.

Plan #3, pepper spray.  I always carry some in the car right next to the seat where I can get it without a lot of motion.  I slid it into my lap, removed the safety and when my antagonist was close enough to touch me, I let him have it.  Instant attitude change!  He wandered off, kind of squeaking and rubbing his eyes.  I cleaned myself off as best I could and went to my destination (Kung Fu school).  As I was cleaning my car out, I noticed that the pepper spray can was empty.  I read the label:  "To be used in short, 1/2 second bursts.  Contains 20 doses."   :o  Oops!  In my panic, I gave the poor bastard enough pepper spray to stop a bear!  I now buy smaller containers.  I figure in a panic I will probably do the same thing, so now I am only set up to give them 10 doses instead of 20.

So, pepper spray has its place.  My personal one is past its expiration and I am thinking of buying an ASP key defender to replace it.  I wouldn't want to rely on pepper spray exclusively, but I think it is a good tool to have in ones bag.  Now, after I have been training unarmed and weapons for 14 years and have much more confidence in my physical fighting skills, I would still opt for pepper spray were I faced with a similar situation to the above.  If I ended up having to fight the guy, I would much rather fight a guy who had been maced than not. 
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seanross

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2005, 11:09:49 AM »

Mace and dogs:


I was in a very crowded parking lot with only a few inches of clearance between my car and the one next to it.  Problem.  Two very large, very hostile dogs with big teeth in said car with the windows rolled down.  How am I to get safely out of my car given I have to squeeze so close to the dogs?  Answer!  Pepper spray.  Doggies quieted down contemplating the sudden malfunctioning of their respiratory system and Sean got out of his car safely.

I might also add I nearly got into a fight once because a stray dog wouldn't let me out of my car and kept following me silently.  I turned to pepper spray that dog too just as its owner came looking for it.  Of course HE thought his doggie was friendly as most dog owners do, not realizing that dogs are friendly (subservient) to those they take to be their alpha males but can be quite hostile to others.  The incident passed with only some minor woofing on the part of the dog and its owner.
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Hock

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2005, 12:33:59 PM »

I became a fan of the foam spray. You see it like shaving cream, where it shoots and where it lands. You keep your hands out of it. Very little traveling mist.

I have only a few experiences with it. Maybe 8? 10 at the most? On angry people. Never had a problem. Always worked.

I personnally never used it on a dog, but co-workers have.
Hock

 

Hock

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2005, 08:04:15 AM »

Now, a the brainchild from... The Next Generation....the Scorcher....

(and I summarize)

Spray a load of spray on your hands (mist or foam?) Rub in it.
Then your fight begins, as you do the shredder (or Rouser, Leper, or whatever the "Next Gen" calls their particular, multiple-attack-to-the-face-thing...that everyone already does.)

Now as you palm, forearm and elbow the head, in between all this, you are also wiping happy sauce on the face? Satin's Facial. (how much will land, you guess?)

Now, the challenge for the forum is to make up a self defense situation where you actually go through these steps involved .

Remember, you:
a) actually predict that one or two people are about to attack. You have time!

b) You skulk away,

c) have the time to prep your hands without hurting your own eyes, nose and throat. After this hand stwitch treatment, you decide to take your spray can and...put it back into your pocket. No sense spraying someone from a safe distance when you can "scorch" them.

d) You elbow, palm and forearm the guy's face like a machine gun and then need this pepper spray on his face for futher damage? Will he not be unconscious for at least 15 minutes anyway? Broken nose? Eye poped out or thumbed in? Would the spray actually account for anything at all in the midst of this?

e) You answer police questions so they can tell the district attorney why you kept the spray in your pocket and rubbed the sauce on your hands...or...you just flee the scene wondering for 5 years if the police will ever catch you-the guy who took out someone's left eyeball.

(...and they call me too complicated?)

Oh...Take care not to touch your face or take a pee within the next 15 or 20 minutes. And watch out for open or recent cuts on your hands.

The challenge for the forum is to come up with situations where the Scorcher might apply in a self defense situation.  You know there might be some.

<<<<<>>>>>

Personally, thinking about it?  I think rubbing your hands with gasoline and setting them afire and then doing the Rooster/Rouser/Nazer/Crazer with flaming hands....WOW! FLAME ON! Now we are talking! I'll call it the Fireball, yeah...the Fireball... I could invent the Fireball gloves, I could...I could...then shoes, YEAH! Close your eyes and imagine that...wait. Wait. Maybe I am just complicating things again...


Johnny Storm




« Last Edit: May 17, 2005, 01:30:23 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Professor

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2005, 08:26:46 AM »

Now, a the brainchild from... The Next Generation....the Scorcher....

(and I summarize)

Spray a load of spray on your hands (mist or foam?) Rub in it.
Then your fight begins, as you do the shredder (or Rouser, Leper, or whatever the "Next Gen" calls their particular, multiple-attack-to-the-face-thing...that everyone already does.)

Now as you palm, forearm and elbow the head, in between all this, you are also wiping happy sauce on the face? Satin's Facial. (how much will land, you guess?)

Now, the challenge for the forum is to make up a self defense situation where you actually go through these steps involved .

Remember, you:
a) actually predict that one or two people are about to attack. You have time!

b) You skulk away,

c) have the time to prep your hands without hurting your own eyes, nose and throat. After this hand stwitch treatment, you decide to take your spray can and...put it back into your pocket. No sense spraying someone from a safe distance when you can "scorch" them.

d) You elbow, palm and forearm the guy's face like a machine gun and then need this pepper spray on his face for futher damage? Will he not be unconscious for at least 15 minutes anyway? Broken nose? Eye poped out or thumbed in? Would the spray actually account for anything at all in the midst of this?

e) You answer police questions so they can tell the district attorney why you kept the spray in your pocket and rubbed the sauce on your hands...or...you just flee the scene wondering for 5 years if the police will ever catch you-the guy who took out someone's left eyeball.

(...and they call me too complicated?)

Oh...Take care not to touch your face or take a pee within the next 15 or 20 minutes. And watch out for open or recent cuts on your hands.

The challenge for the forum is to come up with situations where the Scorcher might apply in a self defense situation.  You know there might be some.

<<<<<>>>>>

Personally, thinking about it?  I think rubbing your hands with gasoline and setting them afire and then doing the Rooster/Rouser/Nazer/Crazer with flaming hands....WOW! FLAME ON! Now we are talking! I'll call it the Fireball, yeah...the Fireball... I could invent the Fireball gloves, I could...I could...then shoes, YEAH! Close your eyes and imagine that...wait. Wait. Maybe I am just complicating things again...


Johnny Storm







It never ends......    ::)
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Planetkillr

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2005, 11:28:34 PM »

I have used O.C. Pepper Spray 25 + times in the past 14 years as a police officer. The words to look for in reguards to nowing how "Powerful" a Pepper spray is, is in 'Scoville Heat Units'. It should say something like "2 Million Scoville Heat units" on the back of the can. Also, there are options when considering what type Pepper spray to buy. Forget things like 5%, 10%, ect., it's all in 'Scoville Heat units'. If it does'nt say 'Scoville Heat units' forget it.

Next is the type spray volume that comes out of the can. What most call "Stream" or "Spray" is a straight stream that comes out a couple of feet. In my option, if you are trying to use your pepper spray durning a physical altercation, these may not be such a good idea to use. WHY? Well, it's like trying to be Annie Oakley durning a fight. You sure need alot of training to be able to fight with someone with one hand and aim your pepper spray with the other...I've seen alot of problems result from this. Next is what is called, "Cone", this means it comes out in a wide pattern and this type can usually be somewhat accurate due to not having to aim very much. This type can blow back at you in sever conditions. But, you can usually hit the suspect when it counts most...in the face/eyes. There are several other types out there. My option is get yourself some "Bodyguard LE-10" if you are in law enforcement; if not I'd recommend at least getting a brand that has the words "Scoville Heat Units" on back...

Now, that you've bought your spray, here's the hard part. Training with and understanding the effects of your Pepper spray. There are several brands of inert (fake pepper spray that is safe to train with) spray. I'd recommend getting some and training with it. It would be best to get the same type volume (Stream, Cone, foam, ect) as the real pepper spray you have. Then, the only way to truely understand your pepper spray is to have yourself sprayed. I know this will scare many away and get me at least a few responses about this being a crazy idea...but, please hang on. Now, spraying yourself is painful - yet relatively safe, if done with a partner. Don't try this by yourself...at least not the 1st time. Pepper spray is really good for one thing in a fight; blinding your opponent and causing him pain that may interfer with his ability to combat you in any effective manner. Don't count on miracles with pepper spray. If you don't get it in their eyes good, expect continued resistance at least for a few minutes. Now, if you plan to have yourself sprayed...let me give you some advice. Do it in as cool of a area as you can. Make sure its outside. Have plenty of towels, water and at least one bar of Ivory soap (It has no oils and it works great on cutting thru the pepper oil in the pepper spray). Now, once you've been sprayed remember to breath as best you can. You see that water can be your friend and it cools you down. But, the longer you stay on the water, the longer the burning will continue. Here's what you buddy needs to know. They are there to help you. To get you whatever you need; water, soap, a chair to sit in, ect.). The sooner you let your partner scrub your face with the soap, flush your eyes out good and get you away from the water the better off you are. Remember, it's not going to kill you and you are going to make it! I don't recomend spraying yourself while wearing contacts or if you do not have a safe invironment in which to train (I.E.- a good training partner).

I can say I was sprayed lightly 5-6 times durning altercations and I could continue fight easily. After I was really sprayed good durning a training class, I found that I could'nt open my eyes. It took me about 45 minutes before I could see where I was at. My skin did burn and I did have alot of snot running down my throat causing me minor difficulty breathing; sort of like running a mile hard. It also caused me to have a adreniline dump and I was zapped of my strength in a short period of time. Now, after I was "Trained" in the use of my OC Pepper spray I have been directly sprayed 3-4 times and indirectly sprayed about 6-7 times by fellow officers durning altercations; usually while I was already fighting with the suspect.  Since my training I was able to easily overcome the effects of pepper spray due to my knowledge of what was happening to me and that knowldge allowed me to continue fighting. I do not believe that could have happened prior to me being sprayed directly durning training.

Durning my 14 years as a police officer I have seen many people sprayed with OC Pepper spray. Some drop like they've been shot. Most walk around in circles and beg for help. Some try to continue to fight, but quickly find themselves unable to do so. I have had a few who could withstand the pain for a few minutes and do things like run a few blocks or fight. But about 95% of everyone it was used against was under control in a matter of seconds. Also, something to remember... If you spray someone, you need to immediately fall back from them (About 10 or more feet) and wait a few seconds before trying to subdue your opponent. This will help with having it blow back into you. Also, remember you just sprayed them. If you get it on your hands, arms, whatever and rub it in your eyes...it will then be in your eyes too. It's very easy for this to occure.

I know some of this information is'nt useful to everyone, but I hope I was able to help at least one person.
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tlouis

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2005, 05:32:02 AM »

great information. i carry fox pepper spray. I have played with the idea of testing it on myself, actually having my wife give me a shot, which she says she would love to do. I have the stream and mist. in testing it, it seems the stream would be more accurate in outside conditions, but i have never drilled with it in a hands on scenario. I do have training spray and i guess this would be a good idea. Thanks for the info.
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Hock

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2005, 07:23:18 AM »

If you want to see a spray in action and the aftermath? We shot a guy for real in Training Mission 3 DVD-the gun disc. He volunteered! He attacks our actress on a parking lot. She lights him up. We see the recation and recovery in time lapse and interviews.

meanwhile Planetkiller above there gave you all great synopsis of a police spray course. Take notes on that one...

Hock

Professor

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Re: Pepper Sprays/Mace For Self Defense
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2005, 08:18:04 PM »

If you want to see a spray in action and the aftermath? We shot a guy for real in Training Mission 3 DVD-the gun disc. He volunteered! He attacks our actress on a parking lot. She lights him up. We see the recation and recovery in time lapse and interviews.

meanwhile Planetkiller above there gave you all great synopsis of a police spray course. Take notes on that one...

Hock


....I remember that shoot....  Caswell was dying....     :D   :D

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC
 

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