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[redfive]

Damn it!! We got Frank Dux on the forum here. I wont to know about the Black Dragon fighting Society and the Kumite. Why don't you all take a brake and go after Darth Vader for a while. He claimed to be a Jedi Knight, but converted to the dark side before he got knighted. And he may not be a Sith Lord either, because we have no real proof that the Emperor was a real master of the dark side, only his word and here say. Even Yoda didn't sense him. So go do that for awhile. And in the mean time Frank can tell me about the Black Dragon Society and Koga Ninjitsu. And if  the society is the same lineage as Count Dante's Black Dragon Society.

                               Redfive
O and you may wont to take a look at  the validity of Arnold's claim as well, "Super Anything" But I will back him up on this.

[JimH]

Mr Dux is a member of the International Black Dragon Fighting society under GM Stoffel Van Vurren.

Mr Keehan/Count Dante Died in 1975

[Dawg]

I'm with Redfive; I'd like to hear more about the IBDFS as well. My research left me more confused about this organization than I was before I started looking into them. Not a dirt digging mission here; GM Stoffel Van Vurren was giving a seminar in my area and I was just checking up on him to decide if I wanted to raid the training fund to attend. Decided to pass, mostly because of this IBDFS thing. So, I'd welcome some enlightenment on the subject.

Why don't you all take a brake and go after Darth Vader for a while. He claimed to be a Jedi Knight, but converted to the dark side before he got knighted. And he may not be a Sith Lord either, because we have no real proof that the Emperor was a real master of the dark side, only his word and here say. Even Yoda didn't sense him. So go do that for awhile.

Now there's a conspiracy for you!

Just email George Lucas; he's probably got documentation available to answer all these questions. A wise man he is.

[redfive]

Hey Dawg, glad I'm not the only one interested. My first instructor was a member of the Black Dragon Fighing Society along with Captain Ben Mangels. When I first started with them they were teaching Ninjitsu and a couple of years latter it changed to Jujitsu. Which Mangels is very high ranking in (World British Federation of Martial Arts). But I was young and never understood the Black Dragon thing or the Ninjitsu part. Now it seems to be clearer but has taken some bizar turns as we can see. I found Vurren"s web site about two months ago after looking Mangels and the black dragons up. I first was led to Ashida Kim (grrrreeat) then to a Count Dante's Black Dragon Fighting society. That was a big WTF. But its getting clearer now. Most led to south Africa and to Captain Mangels and to Koga Ninjistu and here we are with Frank Dux of Koga Ninjitsu and the Black Dragons of the Kumite which leads to the orgins of the society through Jet Li's movie Fearless. Vurrens website laid it out really well. Just wonted to ask Mr. Dux if its accurate, as far as his side of the history and Tanaka, and the creation of the BDFS.
 But I may have better luck with George Lucas.

                                                      Redfive.

ps. I did attend a training camp with Steven K. Hayes back in the days. He was really cool to talk with . Could listen to him for hours.              

[Dawg]

But I was young and never understood the Black Dragon thing or the Ninjitsu part. Now it seems to be clearer but has taken some bizar turns as we can see. I found Vurren"s web site about two months ago after looking Mangels and the black dragons up. I first was led to Ashida Kim (grrrreeat) then to a Count Dante's Black Dragon Fighting society. That was a big WTF. But its getting clearer now.             

Roger WTF, Over. My research led me to the same places, with the same results. Unfortunately, it's about as clear as mud to me. So, maybe Grandmaster Frank Dux can give us the straight skinny on the real deal.

P.S.
Although I've never trained with Stephen K. Hayes, I have a friend who also went to one of his training camps and has nothing but good stuff to say about the experience.

P.P.S.
Let me know how the "Lucas thing" turns out!

[JimH]

The IBDFS now sells membership basically to anyone but they claim you must have competed in a No Holds Barred fight,Kumite type event.

I believe Mr Dux also sells some BDFS certificate.

What surprises me though is that Mr Dux style,from what I have seen as I have never trained with him in any manner ,is a more/mostly Jujitsu based system.
I have trained at seminars with Stephen Hayes and his wife and what he teaches does not in anyway resemble what I have seen out there by Mr Dux.
I have also viewed other footage of other ninjitsu based systems and instructors like Hatsumi and they do  not resemble Mr Dux materials.

Now on to Senzo "the Tiger" Tanaka,the Great Asian kumite Champion,so Great there is NOTHING written about him,only by Mr Dux.
Mr Dux says he started to train with Mr Tanaka in the 1970's,so Mr Tanaka was not that old and Mr Dux turned 18 and joined the USMCR in 1975.
Oh yes,1975 Mr Dux also started his own RYU.
(I wonder what Mr Tanaka Thought about that ?)

There are no records of Mr Tanaka at all as teaching or competing in Kumite.
Could explain why Mr Dux materials look like the teachings of Mr Jack Seki,Jujitsu and Judo champion who Mr Dux's trained with for a short time.

There is a listing of ONE Mr Senzo Tanaka born in 1888, Kiushiu island,Japan
Arrived in the US in 1906 and lived in Winters ,California
Registered for the draft in WWI
was sent to a Camp during WWII
Died at the age of 87 in Sacramento California,sept 1975.

Now if this is Mr Dux teacher,which it would have to be  if it were true,he was at minimum 82 when Mr Dux started training with him after 1970.

Anyone believe that BS

[arnold]

Wadda mean I'm not Super?! Just look at all of my postings! Isn't that enough to validate everything?!

[Dawg]

Wadda mean I'm not Super?! Just look at all of my postings! Isn't that enough to validate everything?!

Your posts are definitely enough to validate your permanent residence being a padded room. The fact that you're still running around loose only substantiates that law enforcement personnel are too busy trying to secure our borders. Looks like you're relatively safe from capture any time in the near future.
 
Back to the topic at hand:

The IBDFS now sells membership basically to anyone but they claim you must have competed in a No Holds Barred fight,Kumite type event.

That is what I thought. So, I'm guessing it would be a good idea just to take a pass on training with folks that are affiliated with the IBDFS? Or, at the very least, to be prepared for and wary of the sales pitch to follow any training?

Just looking to expand my training base. I don't need Super Secret Agents or Killer Ninjas, just good, decent, hard working folks who let their skills speak for themselves instead of some hyped-up advertising.

Is that really asking too much?

[JimH]

Some one need only ask how these men became 10th Dans.
They all promote themselves and then promote each other with BS rank.

Let us look at mr Dux:
He is a Hanshi/10th Dan.
He created his Dux Ryu system in 1975 at 19 years old.

He had minimal training from anyone,and if there was a Tanaka Sensei ,Mr Dux was with him for a short time and even says they left on "BAD TERMS",so we can bet mr Tanaka,if there was one,never promoted Mr Dux to even Black Belt level,so how did he become a 10th Dan ?
Self Promotion because he created his own system.
Then you meet another self Made 10th Dan and rank each other some BS High rank and the BS continues till you have a page of no proof,made up,exchanges of rank between nobodies,lol.

When ever anyone was the only student,or the only student left of a person who can never be proved to have existed then let the RED FLAGS WAVE HIGH.

When an organization sells Rank Certificates to anyone willing to pay,never sees them train and never tests them,then again let the Red Flags Wave.

Good people ,with Real Training and Real Skills are out there,they just do not have the mind set to BS people with stories of BS Glory and BS super skills.

[whitewolf]

Yep=thats one of many reasons I dont join organizations if i do not know the people personnaly- WW

[Dawg]

JimH,
I agree with everything in your post. I was merely researching GM Stoffel Van Vurren because he was doing a seminar in my area. I really didn't need to research all the members of the IBDS; the red flags were waving already for the Big Dawg (waving and screaming, "Danger, Danger, Danger!"), so I decided not to attend.

Not a big "joiner" either. I like Hock's "boat theory": If you're a little boat (me!) and you hook yourself up to a good big boat (like the SFC), it can help you out. If you're a little boat and hook yourself up to a big boat that's sinking, well...you get dragged down with it.
(Just a small part of the whole analogy, but that's it in a nutshell.)

Better to float along on my own and survive than be drowned by someone else's BS.

Plus, I really hate all the hype! "I'm just a regular, everyday, normal guy" who has been around for awhile and has some good stuff to share with folks that are interested. Not a Super-Secret Agent, not an Intergalactic Champion of some unheard of (secret!) martial art, not some government trained killing machine, not related in any fashion to Bruce Lee; just a guy who trains hard and has some good stuff to share.

When did that quit being good enough? Anyway, thanks for all the info.

[JimH]

Dawg,
The thing is that you are not the only one looking at these guys and many WILL NOT Have Flags go up as you did ,as they know not what they are looking at or for.

At least you did a search on these guys when you heard they would be doing something near you.
It amazes me ,how many people do not look on line at those doing things in or around where they live.
They look and see a name and a title or in many cases TITLE and they belief it all.

They see Mr Dux name and relate it to a Movie he wrote and claimed was his life and they believe it.
Well he says he is Great,they made the Movie which says he is great,so he must be Great.LOL.

So many liars and fakes out there,and so many places to buy fake documents that will let you be a Master in what ever you want to be,it is a joke.
But
People do not look and do any research they just trust these fakes must be legit.

So if we can give a heads up,if they did a search it might hit,and they might not be taken in and waste their money.

If the people on this thread alone got together in emails and got fake rank and then pledged to each other to say we were all champions at one time or another in secret Death matches  people would buy into it and with each other as backing our story no one could dispute it.
(hell the Death Match could have been an interactive video game that we all participated in,you could probably pass a lie detector test if you did it that way,lol.Proof in court and all that BS)

[arnold]

But I am great, or is that ingrate? Ah who the hell cares

[whitewolf]

Arnold- if u want ill make u a certificate -the seal will be BLACK LABEL BEER DRINKER
You can post it on the wall or make a business card and pass it out to all who u see.

Did u read my post on Dux defaming the USMC and my comment about his use of it?

What a world we live in-

stay  safe  stay  happy and stay a bit tipsy- WW

[Dawg]

At least you did a search on these guys when you heard they would be doing something near you.
It amazes me ,how many people do not look on line at those doing things in or around where they live.

It amazes me as well; I just don't get it. I guess some people just have more money than sense? Maybe they're just afraid to ask questions?  Maybe they're just lazy or easy to impress; like I said, I just don't get it.

But I am great, or is that ingrate? Ah who the hell cares

Uncle Arnold,
I care; you are great! Now, HTFU and get over yourself, you jackwagon!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhlWddAXSRA