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[Benjamin Liu]

This is a stretch, but too many the perception is that martial arts schools are trying to rip them off. I don't know if this is a result of the popularity of TKD. ( ah those Koreans!)

IMO a large part of this comes from the anti-capitalists within the martial arts community.  They bad-mouth anyone who makes money or anyone who they think makes money.

Like real-world commies and pinkos, it is OK if their idols make money.  Real-world commies think it is OK for Leftist actors and singers to become multi-millionaires, but condemn businessmen for making money.  Likewise, to these types in martial arts, it is great if an MMA competitor, an MMA company, a high-level black belt, their chosen "guru," or whoever they like to make money, but if the instructor down the street seems to be making money then he is an evil capitalist pig.

Just look at the common phrases used to bad-mouth anyone seen as competition for their teachers or idols; very often it has some economic component condemning them for making money.  This is true even if the person doesn't make money, just the accusation is enough for many people.

[Benjamin Liu]

I think some people are infatuated with the idea of training, but don't want to actually do the physical work of training.

Then you have those people that are only thinking of the end result, and have no idea of the thousands of hours of practice required to build skill. These are the ones that imagine themselves as great fighters, great musicians, etc., and get very discouraged when they suddenly realize they won't reach that goal in the first six weeks.

I've seen a lot of this.

Another part of this issue, something that effects almost everyone in many areas, not just martial arts, is that while a person might see the benefit of the end result, and even want it, and maybe even see the work as a reasonable pay-off, the real challenge is what to do right now in the moment.  By this I mean getting up from the computer, TV, video game, etc. and going to class or even working out on you own.

[Hock]

I split this because it was hidden down at the end of another thread.

In the mid 1990s I was accused of being one of these evil capitalists. I was charging $25 a test and $50 for instructorships. I was pure evil compared to my few competitors - said my competitors. But you know I was HIGHLY organized and certainly the Filipino material I taught highly, HIGHLY organized.

In fact, just last year Gabe Suarez said I was running a pryamid "scam" on his talk forum and to avoid me. Then he bravely closed the thread. (by the way, I like Gabe, like his DVDs and would send anyone to him anytime. I wish him well and good success. the same goes for his buddy Mark Denny. Keep FMA alive! )

That was 2009! (2008?) My only answer to Gabe's remarks is what decade is he in? Has anyone looked at the fees, dues and prices going on these days? I am a punk give away compared to everyone else. I'll bet he charges way more than I do. And remember I have no annual dues, or anything like that.

More to  follow...

Hock  

[whitewolf]

I know schools tht charge 125-150 $ a month now-it is a radical change from a few years ago-WW

[Keith Miller]

I know schools tht charge 125-150 $ a month now-it is a radical change from a few years ago-WW

Does that seem like a lot? That's pretty much the going rate around here.

[Hock]

Back....

The fees people charge now, and many are just halfwits, even half of halfwits, for seminars and dues (but mostly seminars) are amazing. $$$$.

It seemed to start with Darren Levine's "Los Angeles" Krav Maga. late 1990s. But also the old SCARS program by Peterson, where people were duped into paying thousands of dollars for a weekend. That was when I saw prices really jump.

At any rate I am like a bargain basement punk compared to the common rates these days and have been for years.

Back in the 1980s I read an Aikido book and the author commented that his monthly dues were no more than a one decent meal for two at a restaurant. Like a dinner date. Yet, students still balk at his prices.

I have been teaching a little over 20 years now, which is not long compared to many. I have seen many weird things with fees and tuitions.

I charged $100 a month, max, in the 1990s when I had the proverbial "school." The $100 bought all my week night classes. Each week, I taught in 60 minute segments -  

Monday Nights
   Knife fighting
   Jeet Kune Do
   Filipino Martial Arts
   Japanese - karate, jujitsu, aiki-jitsu

Thursday nights
   2 hours of mixed

People could purchase separate sources. We always had a core group of about 12 to 14 guys that ant-ied up the $100 all through the years and did it all.

Jeff Allen
Tom the Arnold Barnhart
Mark Lynn
Jason Gutierez
Randy Roberson
and some others (sorry if I've not mentioned you)

The rest? I will estimate that I taught THOUSANDS of people (never kids) in that school. Thousands of them, as they stayed for one month or two or three. Remember we had two major colleges in my city and I also taught at TWU - Texas Women's University, too. for a time, one night a week.

This point is a business issue also. How many thousands of people will you teach before you become tainted and negative?  I have had thousands of people pass through  these school classes, and then for 15 more years in seminars, thousands more each more each year. Thousands of circumstances. Thousands of attitudes. Thousands of fees.

At what point?

Hock

[Kelly Knight]

I think one answer to "At what point...will you teach before you become tainted and negative?" will be sooner than later if you're not able to put food on your family's table, however that is accomplished financially. Either solely by your MA business or in conjunction with other means.

Establishing costs based entirely on what your competitors (real or imagined) are charging is folly, of course. Charge what is right and fair for you and your customers based on all of the factors (especially perceived and tangible values). Forget about The Joneses.

Free is right for some, a million dollars a minute for others. What would you pay to train with <insert your MA hero/god HERE, alive or dead>?

Interesting topic, though.

Kelly Knight

[sarguy]

I suppose I'm in the vast minority, but I'm all for paying a decent fee for good instruction, especially if the instructor is making a living off of it. Of course, I'm one of those evil capitalists, and the biblical doctrine "don't muzzle the ox while they tread out the grain" holds true in all sectors, not just the ministry.

$100 a month to train with Hock back in the day? Oh, to have the opportunities to do such things now! Geez!

[noload]

Does anyone still run a school as a side job? In the past every school that I went to was run by a guy or guys who all had day jobs. They charged a fair amount ($40 back in the 80's comes to mind) to pay the rent, buy supplies and some extra cash for them. Great training and usually more like belonging to a club than a school.

Then Fred Vallari's schools hit the area and that was the first full-time instructor I had met. I tried them and quickly left as the franchisee was busy trying to squeeze every last dime out of his customers.  

[Keith Miller]

I think a lot of students/customers just don't know what it takes to run a school. They think you are just putting all that money in your pocket. "All you gotta do is pay rent. Why's it so expensive?"

Revenue Generating:
Classes
Private Lessons
Pro Shop Sales

Non-Revenue Generating
RENT
Toilet Paper
Paper Towels
Air Conditioning and Heat
Mats and Equipment
Internet & Phones
Cleaning Supplies
Insurance
Billing
First Aid Supplies

I don't know about you guys, but at my gym that NON Revenue list adds up to several thousands of dollars each month. On GOOOD months, when everyone decides to pay on time, I probably get to keep about $20 out of that $100 or so I charged. Now that's $20 for teaching on average 136 classes. What's that come out to... $0.15 per class per student? WTF...is this a lemonade stand?

But I'm just a Capitalist Pig lining my pockets with the hard earned cash of my brainwashed disciples, muddying the good name of Martial Arts training.

Blow Me.

[noload]

Welcome all to the Walmart economy. Where everyone wants something for next to nothing and price not quality is king.

On the other hand I don't think people are anti-capitalists if they think someone is charging more for a service than they are willing to pay. It means that the person really doesn't need or want that service very much.

Maybe not everyone can have a full time school as their main source of income. A friend of mine managed to do it but he made a good chunk of change from renting out floor space and time to a top notch BJJ instructor.
A side note: After 10 years my friend went back to a straight job so sold his school to another guy looking to expand. The new owner jacked up the rate the BJJ instructor had to pay. The BJJ guy didn't want to raise his rates so found a new training location down the street. Capitalism at work. The new owner is now scrambling to make the school break even.

[Benjamin Liu]

On the other hand I don't think people are anti-capitalists if they think someone is charging more for a service than they are willing to pay. It means that the person really doesn't need or want that service very much.

Different topic.

I'm not anti-capitalist yet I don't train when I can't afford to.  This isn't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about people who are against anyone making any money teaching, or maybe against anyone but their instructor or idol teaching. 

It is the mindset that says things like, "I train in my friend's garage, and that Karate dojo down the street has a storefront!  It HAS to be a McDonjo and it HAS to have bad training.  What's that about my group having unsafe equipment?  Well, We're  not commercial sell-outs so we can't afford safe equpiment like that Karate McDojo down the street!"

Or a WWII combatives guy who collects antique knives and first edition books complaining about how a traditional or RBSD school might be making money.

Or a guy wearing Tap-out gear, buying DVDS and books, and watching fights on pay per view complaining about a storefront dojo even being in business.

Or a traditional school run in a park bad-mouthing someone else in their style who actually has a successful dojo, and saying that making money equals bad teaching.  In my own experience that is not the case, in fact, park and garage dojos tend to get slack in their teaching and even instructor attendence.

Or worse, a traditonal school who uses their non-capitalist nature as a means to manipulate their students in a cult-like way, claiming that dedication to the master is the "True Way" and that wanting to learn what you pay to learn is a "consumer mindset" that only American capitalist pigs have.

[Benjamin Liu]

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

A few years ago I was on another forum and some MMA guy (like MMA is not commerical,  it is the biggest commerical movement ever to exist in the martial arts) made the comment to "hide your wallet" when showing up to a Bujinkan dojo and went on to say that these dojos are commericalized (as if that was bad) and then gave me a "thumbs up" when I said that the dojo I was training with at the time only had $5.00 mat fees, as if that was something good.  In reality, neither the commercial dojo nor the dirt-cheap dojo is inherently good or bad based just on their financial status.  

What made those statements even dumber, however, is that in the Bujinkan there is a massive anti-commercial bias.  Not in the sense of people simply having small clubs as standard, nothing wrong with that, but in the sense that many people are very anti-capitalist and make claims such as anyone making money is a sell-out with low-quality training.  The only Bujinkan people I've seen that are commerical enough to make a living off it aside from the Soke are Stephen Hayes and Richard Van Donk, both people these types hate, but even then, unless you are their accountant or somehting, who knows how much someone makes?

In the end, it was largely one anti-capitalist bad-mouthing other anti-capitalists for being capitalist.

Another factor is how "we" (martial artists) as a group view teaching martial arts.  Many people undervalue what they teach while people teaching other hobbies or physical activities charge far more money, usually with far less training to qualify them to teach.

A related issue is looking at what we paid when we were new students, not realizing that inflation has changed the value of money since then, and operating costs are higher in today's society.

[noload]

I think it's more false ideology and jealousy then anti-capitalism. I think you'll find it in any group that teaches morality or spirituality in one form or another. Of course no one should make money unless of course it's mostly heading back to the home office.

[Webby]

All good MA teachers have one thing in common. They love to teach. I teach people for free who cannot afford it and charge a reasonable fee for those who can afford it. The level and type of instruction is the same. I don't see that charging a lot of money to a big corporate client is an issuse. I've done it, put some of the money back in the business took some for myself and put the rest into The Gurkhas Welfare Trust.

If someone is making money selling shit. They should be exposed. If they are good at teaching and the training is worth while they should not under charge those who can pay. It's all down to common sense.

Webby..Train hard, fight easy..