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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 23, 2012, 05:54:19 AM
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Author Topic: Moshe Katz  (Read 4887 times)

Flatfoot6568

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 01:42:05 PM »

Combative1
Considering you have been attached to Katz for several years and continue your affiliation with him, I find your evaluation to be very biased indeed. As a fellow LEO, who even contacted me the following day to see if I was ok, your instincts should tell you that something was not right in this situation.

I have nothing but respect for what you do down in the Southwest and were one of the "members" I considered a friend prior to this mess. But slamming me or the situation is inconsiderate. Katz is a member on this forum. We all know he is lurking around. He is welcome to speak with me anytime or to respond to anything here.
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SileyEric

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2011, 11:24:02 AM »


Moshe was with Itay for 18+/- years as a student.  He does not show a lot of his methods explosively in video because his purpose is not to show but to teach.  He even occasionally uses a YouTube link to send out to his members in order to instruct some small part of a "technique" which is being commonly misunderstood.  It is not to boost his ego or show what he can do.  Granted, he is less dynamic than others, he sometimes talks more than is needed, but his sincere desire is to get the material into the hands of his clients for a price FAR below what others may offer.  It is not to undercut anyone, BUT to balance with those who require exorbitant prices for inferior non-gross motor based training.

When Itay first remade the methods used by YAMAM it was to make it more gross motor oriented than common Krav Maga methods.  Moshe has continued in the same vein BUT works with all sorts of soccer moms, college co-eds, etc. as well as Law Enforcement, Tactical, Military and yes Special Forces - he was recently brought back to the US right after going home from a tour by an SF group.  So he has a very broad perspective from which to develop skill sets which will work for a 90 lbs college kid all the way 200 lbs SRT operator.

I hope this clarifies this for anyone who just wants an unbiased look at Mr. Katz.


One of the first things that Krav Maga Instructors learn in the very first instructor certification is how to teach by demonstrating at speed or "live."  This is an integral teaching method, since we need to get students operating at-speed quickly.  Part of teaching the technique is showing what it looks like and moving explosively.  Every good Krav Maga teacher I've seen, regardless of organization they come from, are able to show this.  Moshe Katz did not, in the videos that are online.

This whole thread started out strangely, with a personal story about an affair, death in the family, all that.  I don't know that any of this makes Moshe Katz a fraud at the level of the Wagners and his ilk.  This is more of a discussion of technical differences.

There had been a link posted that showed Moshe Katz defending a pistol in his mid-section, and driving his shoulder down into it.  He mentions that no one else does this, and the reason might be this - it's not a good  idea, in my opinion.  I think the post and link were removed before I could respond.  I'll share the details if it is put back up.
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SileyEric

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2011, 11:36:23 AM »

One other thing - when I see terms like "gross motor movement" and "non-gross motor movement" applied to Krav Maga and read that someone thinks they are doing things that no one else is doing, I get suspicious.

Let me tell you one thing about Krav Maga, which I've practiced for over 11 years and teach professionally - it ain't complicated.  The people I know who are making strides in developing the system are not doing it with secret knowledge or little, unique, bullshit changes to technique.

The notable developments are in integrating firearms training (more U.S. tactical shooting than Israeli-style), constantly changing and adding scenarios and training drills, and focusing on tactics in training after making it through all the techniques.  There are also changes we have made based upon criminal tactics in the U.S. that evolve, which Karate teachers from Israel probably don't know about.

At one point in this country, it was probably tough to find a real Krav Maga guy to bring in for a seminar.  It's not tough in 2011.  There are really good guys all over the country, who have been through the ups and downs and ins and outs of the organizations and have stayed true to what we're supposed to be doing...
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Combative1

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2011, 09:31:38 PM »

Okay, so this has turned into a mud slinging match like every other Krav Maga forum on the planet.  I won't further it....

But to set the record straight, I am not from the Southwest and I am not in Law Enforcement.  I don't know anyone who uses the name Flatfoot for anything so you must have me mistaken for someone else.

Moshe and Itay neither one claim
"secret" anything, but they do use a more gross motor based application of Krav Maga principles.  It's not an argument, it's an assessment after working with nearly every major org currently in the US at least by attending their seminars or otherwise.

I wish you all well with your training.  You have chosen to do what you do, I have chosen to do what Moshe and Itay do.  I simply like it better.
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ShooterMMA

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2011, 09:47:13 AM »

@Combative1

Can u pls write me, does Moshe teach krav maga or is he just using the name of krav maga?
Who is his krav maga instructor (not jiu jitsu), can u write the connection to Imi?
The time of so many special krav maga's is past.

And the story of "this way" of krav maga is the best, real one, more gross motor remind me on wing chun story and how they are invincible.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 10:09:26 AM by ShooterMMA »
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Combative1

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2011, 06:01:01 PM »

@ShooterMMA

I sent the information you requested.

Please let me know if you received it.

THX!
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ShooterMMA

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 04:20:30 PM »

@Combative1

I didn't get the info. Where did u send it?
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Combative1

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »

I sent it by clicking on the "Envelope" under your name.

I tried to send it as a PM, but the forum says I am not allowed to use that option.  Maybe I haven't been a member long enough????
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Hock

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2011, 05:54:29 PM »

I sent you each others email, via email.
Did you not get it?

Hock
(our PM system never has worked well)

Combative1

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2011, 12:04:55 AM »

I sent you each others email, via email.
Did you not get it?

Hock
(our PM system never has worked well)

I just checked my email, negative on receipt.

Unless MMA is desperate for the info, I can wait.  I prefer anonymity anyway.  THX for trying though.

Too much ego gets put into these kinds of debates and I prefer to do what I know works for me and let others do the same.

BTW, just a small side note.... I know Mr. Katz met you a time or two at Dr. Beasley's events and appreciates your perspective a lot.  He has been known to quote you on a number of occasions and proudly displays at least one certificate of attendance (in his gym) from your training sessions.

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ShooterMMA

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 03:39:38 AM »

Quote
Itay is a legit military/YAMAM instructor but his training is in Gadi Skornick's kenpojitsu and military combatives. Thats what he teaches along with a mix of some Krav Maga techniques. It is not Krav Maga as taught by Imi Lichtenfeld and his students
                                                                          Many israelis were instructors in IDF, that does not make them KM instructors.               
Quote
Itay Gil gave Katz a 4th degree black belt in JU-JITSU, not Krav Maga and his 5th degree was given to him in a honorary ceremony by a group of karate black belts. Moshe Katz has NEVER practiced real Krav Maga
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 03:55:41 AM by ShooterMMA »
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arnold

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2011, 04:32:52 AM »

The whole thing sounds like a drink that should have an umbrella in it!
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

seldomseen

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 11:03:39 AM »


     Everything else aside, the guy should have sunk a DEEP rear naked choke on this guy (the one banging his wife), to see if his Krav defense really worked. Or better yet, stood 20 feet away with a handgun and ended his life.

       Jason
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Combative1

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2012, 12:36:36 PM »

Quote
Itay is a legit military/YAMAM instructor but his training is in Gadi Skornick's kenpojitsu and military combatives. Thats what he teaches along with a mix of some Krav Maga techniques. It is not Krav Maga as taught by Imi Lichtenfeld and his students
                                                                         
Many israelis were instructors in IDF, that does not make them KM instructors.               
Quote
Itay Gil gave Katz a 4th degree black belt in JU-JITSU, not Krav Maga and his 5th degree was given to him in a honorary ceremony by a group of karate black belts. Moshe Katz has NEVER practiced real Krav Maga

Just an FYI @ShooterMMA - Itay did indeed go thru' the Krav Maga instructors course while in the IDF.  Also, his unit "Paratrooper Recon" received MUCH advanced KM training and often under Eli Avikzar, Imi's successor and the co-developer of the "civilian Krav Maga" seen all over the place.  Imi did not "invent" all of KM as purported by those who stand to make money off such claims.  Imi's fame, for lack of a better word, really came from his introduction of KM to the civilian sector and making it belt ranked, adding a martial arts flare to it.  The principles of KM were established before Imi entered the then called Palestine.  KAPAP, as it was then called, was a system of concepts and principles.  Each level of the Haganah were granted more and more info.  For instance Palmach - a sort of special forces counter terror unit, did much more with learning to build "grease gun" type weapons from plumbing parts and other materials than did those who just patrolled and reported.  This same concept has spilled over into the modern IDF, in fact all of Israel's many level of Polise, Security, etc. 

I suppose my point is, Imi's civilian KM is not all that KM has to offer.  Eli Avikzar was a strong proponent of putting more "grappling and throwing" into advanced military KM because he (commissioned by Imi) earned Black Belts in Aikido and Judo.  He saw weak areas in the KM of the day and tried to strengthen them.  Itay did the same when he was made the lead tactics instructor for YAMAM.  KM is supposed to be a system of concepts and principles and this is evidenced in the kaf mem (Hebrew characters for K and M) symbol popularized by the IKMA and KMWW.  The symbol is open at the top and bottom and also to the left and right of the kaf mem to symbolize that techniques flow into the system from many avenues, when they are no longer effective or the enemies of Israel find effective counters, those techniques are to flow out.  This is the definition John Whitman and Sam Sde gave at a KMWW seminar I attended in 2001, or there about.  Yet only Itay and Moshe dare to press the envelope by following this principle!!  I hear that the KM Alliance has started to modify techniques as well.  They recently put Nir Maman on their board.  Some of Nir's techniques have evolved to look much like Itay and Moshe's since he returned to and left LOTAR in Israel.  It makes me wonder if it was influenced by the fact that Itay was a senior instructor to Duvdevan (very involved at LOTAR) and that several of Moshe's students have served in Duvdevan...... maybe, maybe not.

So I would caution, before claiming that only "Imi's KM is true KM" take a look at the highest level of operators and instructors and see if they are still doing things the way they were done before Imi left the IDF.  Just a thought...... no offense intended to anyone.

You have to test everything for yourself.  What fits well for you may not for others, but just because a single source claims someone doesn't teach Krav Maga, that does not necessarily make it so.
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Keith Miller

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Re: Moshe Katz
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2012, 04:23:07 PM »

The whole thing sounds like a drink that should have an umbrella in it!

Now that's funny. I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
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