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Author Topic: Kitchen knives in the UK  (Read 14646 times)

Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2005, 12:14:45 AM »

Gun crime, gun crime.

You know when police are called by a nervous old lady to a six year old playing with a toy gun?  That's counted as "gun crime".  I was in charge of all Police Response to firearms incidents in my county for four years.  Incidents of "gun crime" like this outnumber real criminals with real guns by at least 50 to 1.  More than that, even.

Gun crime, gun crime.

There has been a recent influx of illegal guns since the fall of the iron curtain, with Eastern European criminal elements creeping into the equation.  But hardly to the extent that 60 million people need to be armed to the teeth to protect themselves.

 ;D
« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 12:17:37 AM by Bri Thai »
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2005, 05:20:33 AM »

A 16-year-old girl was killed and her 18-year-old friend was seriously injured after they were abducted and sexually and physically attacked by a gang of at least six men, police have revealed.
Mary-Ann Leneghan, from Reading, Berkshire, died from a stab wound to the neck, while her friend is in hospital after being shot and stabbed.
The young women suffered "a disgusting ordeal" lasting "several hours" at the hands of up to six attackers in the early hours of Saturday, police said.
They were finally left at a remote spot in Prospect Park in Tilehurst, Reading.
The 18-year-old managed to make her way to a nearby road and flag down a passing motorist who rang for help. Mary-Ann's body was discovered in the park by police at 5.30am
As a key witness, the 18-year-old, who cannot be identified, is helping police with their inquiries from her hospital bed, where she is in a serious but stable condition.
Superintendent Dilip Amin, police area commander for Reading, said it was "very fortunate she was still alive", adding: "She is very ill from the injuries she has received, but she has been very brave in helping police."
Police believe the two young women may have been deliberately targeted, though they were not able to confirm whether the attackers were known to their victims.
At a press conference held at Reading Police Station, Mr Amin said: "Information we have suggests that this is not a random attack. We are keeping all our options open as to what the motive was."
A Thames Valley police spokeswoman confirmed that both girls are thought to have been sexually assaulted.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No toy guns or knives here Bri and there are plenty more recorded crimes in the UK that are very similar and are cause for great concern for many in law enforcement.  Nobody is saying that 60 million should start to carry weapons because right or wrong many citizens in the UK already do to some extent.

Cheers

Joe
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2005, 08:05:00 AM »

You're may be right about a nervous grandmother spotting a toy gun and it being reported as a "gun crime" but to put stuff in perspective the other side is just as guilty of this.

Here in the States if someone decided to comits suicide, and they buy a gun to do so, and do the deed in their house its entered as "if you have a gun in the house you're more likely to be shot by one than if you don't." and you also go in the column of gun deaths.  We can also add to that bunch drug dealers shooting other drug dealers.  If we took those numbers out of the mix there is not nearly as many "gun deaths" as the media would have everyone believe.

The mainstream media also never reports the thousands of home owners every 24 hour period who confront criminals at gun point and hold them till the police arrive.

I've lived in England for five years and here for ten.  I was involved in, and witnessed way more street violence in the UK in the 5 year period than I have here in ten.

PS:  I'm not advocating arming everyone either by the way.  I agree with you that you should have to be trained, prove yourself to be competent and responsible etc but you should definitely have the choice.  That's what is stunning us about England is that they're removing your choice to be armed if you so desire.  The bulk of my friends here do NOT own guns or carry...my wife and I do, but we have a choice.

Just who is therefore supposed to defend the citizens of Britain if they can't defend themselves?  It isn't the police force because their job is to deal with crime after the fact and, by their own admission, they can't be everywhere at once.  It's one thing to have the right to defend yourself - which one does in England - but if you don't have the means what good is that right?
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2005, 10:12:26 AM »

Joe, I'm not sure of the relevance of this story  There are many like it.  Shall I get some from the States?  Will they prove me right?

Ninor, you've touched on some of the reasons that I'm not against the 2nd Ammendment.  Anti gun people mis-quote and selectively interpret stats just as badly as Prof does, but that doesn't make either side "right".  People decide on their view first, and then only look to the depth that suits them - they see what they want to see and deny the "inconvenient" bits.

I can see your point about having the right to defend yourself without having the tools.  It is a hard one to counter.  Your view re the respective perceptions of the UK and the USA are not necessarily as fair though.  I could take you to places in hte UK where a lost cat makes the regional TV news, and no doubt there are places in the States where even the police won't go.  Each country is too big to generalise from one ordinary person's experiences.

Don't forget my post about my own views on citizens rights.  My class 1 people would be able to drive around in tanks.

All this has been born out of the "sheep" comment.  It was a "their culture is wrong, mine is right" nonsense.  It was nonsense and offensive, and it was ignorant.
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2005, 12:59:12 PM »


Ninor, you've touched on some of the reasons that I'm not against the 2nd Ammendment.  Anti gun people mis-quote and selectively interpret stats just as badly as Prof does, but that doesn't make either side "right".  People decide on their view first, and then only look to the depth that suits them - they see what they want to see and deny the "inconvenient" bits.

BullSheepShit! 

Here's the research that I posted:

"The International Crime Victims Survey, conducted by Leiden University in Holland, found that England and Wales ranked second overall in violent crime among industrialized nations:

Twenty-six percent of English citizens -- roughly one-quarter of the population -- have been victimized by violent crime. Australia led the list with more than 30 percent of its population victimized. 

The United States didn't even make the "top 10" list of industrialized nations whose citizens were victimized by crime. 

Jack Straw, the British home secretary, admitted that "levels of victimization are higher than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime." 

"The percentage of the population that suffered 'contact crime' in England and Wales was 3.6 percent, compared with 1.9 percent in the United States and 0.4 percent in Japan. "

(http://ruljis.leidenuniv.nl/group/jfcr/www/icvs/) for further details....

I provided you a link to the research so that you may offer you own interpretation of the research.  I tried to find research that was internationally based and not based on one countries opinion of crime statistic so that it might not be skewed.   Please let me know where I misquoted the research - I would be happy to spend more time with this or other research on the subject.

Post research to show the safety of a society with disarmed citizens.   I posted the finding from the most broad research that I could find.  I'm sorry that it does not support your argument.  Get over it or post research that shows otherwise. 

Quote

All this has been born out of the "sheep" comment.  It was a "their culture is wrong, mine is right" nonsense.  It was nonsense and offensive, and it was ignorant.


A government that disallows their citizens to adequately defend themselves is wrong - they make sheep of the citizens.     GO BACK AND READ MY ORIGINAL POST THAT YOU MENTION ON THE SUBJECT OF CREATING SHEEP (page 1 of this thread.   YOUR GOVERNMENT IS WRONG.....YOUR CULTURE IS RIGHT -- THEY ARE ARMING THEMSELVES (see Joe's post) ILLEGALLY BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS WRONG AND WILL NOT ALLOW THEM ADEQUATE PERSONAL PROTECTION.

This is not a problem just for the UK.  There are many in the US (myself included) who continue to fight for citizens to have better choices of self-defense tools.   A citizen should be allowed to fully defend themselves until they show irresponsibility with their right as a free citizen. 

I would be happy to responded to your research.....
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

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Deadeye Dave

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2005, 01:34:39 PM »

Don't forget my post about my own views on citizens rights.  My class 1 people would be able to drive around in tanks.

Who decides? You, personally? Or the generic "government"?

Weren't the SS the "class one people" of Nazi Germany? I seem to recall them "riding around in tanks" quite a bit.

Whenever anyone has come up with their own criteria of a "class one" person, they seem to move right along to eliminating all the other classes' rights, if not the actual people themselves. (In fact, the first gun control laws on the books in the US were aimed at disarming former slaves right after the "Late Unpleasantness" --the "Civil War" to most people-- they were definitely not considered "class one" people.)

I suspect that there is some wish to impose your will upon others, whether they like it or not. If everyone has to rely on empty hand techniques, then suddenly the strongest and/or most highly trained have a definite advantage. Is this what you want?



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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2005, 08:38:09 AM »

Calm down Deadeye.  Ask yourself this.  Do you think that convicted violent criminals should be armed?  If so we can argue the toss.  If not, then you are as guilty of Nazi tendencies as I.

Prof - perhaps you should write the same research a few more times.  It seems to be therapy for you.  People like Michael Morore provide more than enough research if I was to be ridiculous enough to quote it.  But I remain consistent in my arguments, one of which being that research can say whatever we want it to say.

If we are the sheep, how come it is you that's bleating?
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2005, 08:22:51 PM »

Calm down Deadeye.  Ask yourself this.  Do you think that convicted violent criminals should be armed?  If so we can argue the toss.  If not, then you are as guilty of Nazi tendencies as I.

Prof - perhaps you should write the same research a few more times.  It seems to be therapy for you.  People like Michael Morore provide more than enough research if I was to be ridiculous enough to quote it.  But I remain consistent in my arguments, one of which being that research can say whatever we want it to say.

If we are the sheep, how come it is you that's bleating?

Not all all sheep.....never said that they were....only that the government is forcing them that way.  Obviously some are.....and some aren't (see Joe's post on the subject).   I repost in the hope that you will actually read it and respond to it.   Post the opposing research and the source of the research.  I'm more than happy to read it and analyze the results and provide you my professional opinion of the research techniques. 

Do you not think that the quoted research is accurate?  Please critique the research and tell me what's wrong with it.   

Baaaa Ba Ba!!!!

Maybe you should try the sheep cull game???  www.sheepcull.co.uk 

I've always been told that pictures are better than words..... :o
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 08:32:15 PM by Professor »
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Nick Hughes

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2005, 10:51:50 PM »

Without straying too far off topic...I killed 48 in 92 seconds...any prizes?  ;D
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Chris Roberts

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2005, 05:37:20 AM »

Prof,

Noting that Bri had yet to post any research as you suggested, I thought I'd take a look myself..... and I have to say I couldn't find anything to suggest we're safer over here without guns than you are over there with them - in fact, everything I read supported most of your comments.
Now I only know 2 people who have been the victim of violent crime and I would suggest that's the same for many people in the UK, despite the apparently high figures - I guess the majority of it is happening to the same people, in the same areas over and over again. Maybe the reason we're apparently happy to go along with our government's proposals is that to the majority of us, violent crime is still just a statistic rather than an experience.

I'll keep looking for some evidence, but it's pretty elusive at the moment....

While I'm here, how about going easy with the sheep comment - it's starting to grate.....

Chris.
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Deadeye Dave

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2005, 08:27:38 AM »

Calm down Deadeye.  Ask yourself this.  Do you think that convicted violent criminals should be armed?  If so we can argue the toss.  If not, then you are as guilty of Nazi tendencies as I.

I note that my question remains unanswered. Is that type of society what you want?

As to whether I think convicted violent criminals should be armed, does it matter? Aren't they armed anyway? All the other victim-disarmament laws (i.e.-gun control and other weapons laws) have worked surprising well haven't they? I believe they are called criminals because they don't respect the law. Are they suddenly going to make an exception for this law? They haven't so far.

I would suggest you look at the world as it is, not as you wish it were.
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Bri Thai

  • Guest
Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2005, 11:56:07 AM »

Prof, just watch Bowling for Columbone.  That has more than enough research to be going on with.

Dave, it's hard to take you seriously.  Presumably you disagree with my arguments, but have decided to seize on an ancillary point and try and twist irt round to imply I have Nazi leanings.  It's too ridiculous to engage in, and an appropriate response to your intellect may be "poo off wee wee knickers".  Let me know I you fail to grasp my meaning.

Chris - I think I've explained why I don't go into "research".  I haven't failed to do so, I have refused to do so.  There is a difference.  Have you seen Columbine?  Have a look.

Note - Heres hoping no-one assumes that I agree with Moore.  To my mind he is just as offensive, selective and ignorant as our very own Professor.  But he does provides an alternate view that has convinced millions of Prof's countrymen.

The bottom line?  If you disagree with a culture that is fine.  But if you are so far up your own rear end that you believe them to be inferior, then it may well be YOU that is more closely related to Nazi logic.  They judged by culture and race, whereas I judge by individual behaviour.  They believed that they had the right to use arms to get their own way also. 

Although I do have my tongue in my cheek, the similarities could begin to add up.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 11:59:45 AM by Bri Thai »
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Trembula

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2005, 12:26:43 PM »

One of my history instructors forced me to watch that farce of a documentary in class. I was shaking with rage throughout the entire ordeal and after only a few minutes felt like killing the miserable bastards who made, promoted, and support the debacle.

I will not even offer it the diginity of being called a "film" or a "movie."

Regarding research and "statistics"... one of the books I read as a young man was "How to Lie with Statistics." A skilled manipulator can skew the presentation of most data more than enough to prove his point (or at least not disprove it) if it doesn't line up with what he expected or wants.

Bri... no offense, but there was a reason the smart Englishmen left the British Isles, went to America, got even smarter, and booted the Brits out for good. Of course the British didn't learn their lesson so we had to whup y'all again in the war of 1812.  ;)

Edited to add this link to relevant web site: http://www.defense-training.com/quips/08May05.html

Dan OUT

« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 12:32:43 PM by Trembula »
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Chris Roberts

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2005, 12:35:10 PM »

You refuse to research!!??!!??  Well that's just plain stupid..... you may want to rephrase that last statement.....

...if not, let me take this opportunity to disassociate myself from the self-proclaimed UK spokesman....

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on why researching is a waste of time - please, please have a good response ready 'cos you're digging a big hole for yourself at the moment....

Chris.
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2005, 01:32:42 PM »

Prof,

Noting that Bri had yet to post any research as you suggested, I thought I'd take a look myself..... and I have to say I couldn't find anything to suggest we're safer over here without guns than you are over there with them - in fact, everything I read supported most of your comments.
Now I only know 2 people who have been the victim of violent crime and I would suggest that's the same for many people in the UK, despite the apparently high figures - I guess the majority of it is happening to the same people, in the same areas over and over again. Maybe the reason we're apparently happy to go along with our government's proposals is that to the majority of us, violent crime is still just a statistic rather than an experience.

I'll keep looking for some evidence, but it's pretty elusive at the moment....

While I'm here, how about going easy with the sheep comment - it's starting to grate.....

Chris.

Actually Chris,

I only made the comment the very first time about the government creating sheep by creating stupid and ineffective laws that criminals will not look at anyways....NOT that the UK citizens wanted to be defenseless.

Not more sheep comments from me.....per your request.
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2005, 01:39:39 PM »


Prof, just watch Bowling for Columbone.  That has more than enough research to be going on with.

[snipped]

Chris - I think I've explained why I don't go into "research".  I haven't failed to do so, I have refused to do
so.  There is a difference.  Have you seen Columbine?  Have a look.



You refuse to go into research...you only want to rely on your opinion.  I guess you and I are done on this subject.  Especially if you remotely consider Moore's work research.   ::)

The(offensive, selective and ignorant)Professor
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Deadeye Dave

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2005, 02:43:17 PM »

Dave, it's hard to take you seriously.  Presumably you disagree with my arguments, but have decided to seize on an ancillary point and try and twist irt round to imply I have Nazi leanings.  It's too ridiculous to engage in, and an appropriate response to your intellect may be "poo off wee wee knickers".  Let me know I you fail to grasp my meaning.

Hoo-wee, that's a crusher! All my questions have been completely oblitrerated because I mentioned Nazism! Wow!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 02:52:16 PM by Deadeye Dave »
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A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.

Hock

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2005, 03:16:39 PM »

New interesting news on the UK over in the Gun Discussions topic.

Hock

Bri Thai

  • Guest
Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2005, 04:50:16 PM »

Yes Hock.  Some pretty interesting stuff going down at the moment.  One stat I saw on the TV today aid that "66% of gun crime was committed with imitation firearms".  Add the amount committed with air weapons (which is very very common) and there isn't a great deal of percentage left for the real guns to get in the picture.



The response to Moore's film here proves my point.  One man's research is another man's toilet paper.  People only give credence to the research that supports their view.  The rest is an "ordeal" at best.

See how Prof thinks Moore's research totally invalid?  Millions do and millions don't.  Guess what?  Those that disagree with Moore are the "do's", and vice versa.

Dave - you're weak attack with the Nazism jibe robbbed you of credibility.  I don't want to lower myself far enough to answer your points.  You're also the one who brings democracy into question.  Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.  No offence my friend.  Why not either take it back or admit it was both childish and off topic, then join in the debate?

Chris - Being in immediate charge of all spontaneous firearms incidents for four years (when on duty of course), in the second biggest police force in the UK, gave me enough of an overview of gun crime in the UK.  I think it is fair to say that no man on this board is a hudredth as qualified as I am re gun crime in the UK.  Not even a millionth.

Call me stupid (again), but the man who goes to the river and catches fish every day doesn't need to provide research to prove there are fish in it.

By the way, I don't claim to be a spokesperson for the UK.  I'm just a guy from the UK who does feel more than qualified to express an opinion on the matter, from my "hole" that I am digging.  But qudos to you.  You got the Prof to decline to make more sheep comments for the time being, which is something I failed to do.

As an aside, do any of you researchers want to tell me how many USA citizens die from gun shots each year, compared to how many UK citizens?  We could work with the numbers and see if we could bring them back to life.


« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 05:48:03 PM by Bri Thai »
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Bri Thai

  • Guest
Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2005, 05:46:40 PM »

Since I'm finding it hard to sleep I typed "gun danger usa" into my search engine.  Heres a few gems that hardly prove what a safe place guns are making the USA:-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.dotnews.com/newb3topcop.html

Focuses on Kids
with Guns in Area B-3 
July 8, 2004
By Judy Vance
Reporter Staff

Getting guns off the street and out of the hands of young teenagers has been one of the pressing concerns for Captain Timothy Murray, the new commanding officer at Area B-3 Police. Murray, who took over the role as captain this spring after the arrival of Police Commissoner Kathleen O'Toole, said his officers have begun to ask young men the question: "Why do kids and young men in your neighborhood want to carry a gun?"

So far, the overwhelming responses to this ad hoc survey have been "for power and protection."

What is both surprising and disturbing is that, according to Murray, the desire and demand to acquire guns is increasing and teenagers as young as 14 are carrying guns. This very sobering street mentality has been summed up by a number of teenagers, who have candidly told law enforcement officials that, "it is better to be caught by the police with a gun then by your street enemy without one".

Area B-3, which covers Mattapan and parts of Dorchester is leading the city in crimes involving a firearm. In fact, as of June 2004, of the 98 total shootings in the City of Boston where the victim was either shot or killed, 27 of those shootings were in the B-3 District, ranking it number one in crimes involving a firearm. It is a statistic that Murray said needs to change.

"This community needs less violence," said Murray. "This is a community made up of good people," he added.

Based on actual numbers recorded from January 2003 through April 30 of this year, there were close to 550 gun arrests in Dorchester, Roxbury, and Mattapan combined, compared to roughly 200 gun arrests for the entire other eight districts in the city.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PHEW, THAT CITY HAS A WORSE PROBLEM THAN MY ENTIRE COUNTRY.  LETS SEE SOME MORE:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl/guns.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK, I DIDN'T COPY THE WHOLE ARTICLE.  IT WAS TOO LONG.  NO DOUBT THE GUY WILL BE TRASHED AS HE OBVIOUSLY ISN'T WITH THE PROGRAMME.  NEXT:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.usaweekend.com/99_issues/990822/990822safety.html

How can we protect our children?
The safety of America's schoolchildren is today's top concern as they prepare for a new school year. Here's what parents can do to ensure it.

By Gavin de Becker

America's children return to school, parents are understandably concerned about safety - more so this year than most. Littleton looms large in our memories, as do stories about the dangers of the Internet, angry teenagers and the failure of schools to provide safety. But understand that school is still one of the safest places your children ever go, and multiple shootings at school are very rare. In fact, a child is vastly more likely to have a heart attack, and heart attacks in children are so rare that most parents (correctly) never even consider the risk.

Today's teens live in a much different world from the one their parents grew up in. In most ways, it's a safer one. Young people are far more likely to survive childhood today than in 1960. Vehicle fatalities have dropped by almost 20% since the mid-'60s, deaths by other accidents have been cut in half and cancer deaths for the young have been reduced by 30%.

Guns: Keep them away from children
One category of safety, however, has worsened dramatically: guns. Statistics vary. Despite occasional changes up and down, studies range as high as 1 million kids carrying a gun to school last year. As if that wasn't alarming enough, gunshots are now the leading cause of death among teenage boys. About 16,000 guns are manufactured every day. Each one has a shelf life of hundreds of years, so it'll likely be a problem for our great-grandchildren as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 million kids carrying guns to school?  Guns are the biggest killer of teenage boys?  Wow.  Thats just terrifying and appalling. 




This futile research took me all of five minutes.  I don't set too much store by it, and only do it to show that "research" can find anything.  I mean, that last stoy is quite clearly ridiculous.  Everyone knows that a trip to school in the USA is far less dangerous than a trip to Wendy's.
 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2005, 05:50:35 PM by Bri Thai »
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Professor

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2005, 07:03:16 PM »


I think it is fair to say that no man on this board is a hudredth as qualified as I am re gun crime in the UK.  Not even a millionth.


You sir are a ignorant prat to make a comment such as this.....    ::)

(I hope I got that right for my UK mates)

I'm done.   
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2005, 08:18:05 PM »

Obviously nobody is going to convince anyone else of anything with this "debate" but Bri...Michael Moore's poor excuse for a film was not 'research' nor was it "researched', it was a hatchet job of a propoganda film released conveniently before an election in a bid to get the President ousted.  (And it failed)

Moore was actually sued by a newspaper in Florida for faking a headline in the film and using the name of their paper on it.  In other words his film was a biased view by a democrat hell bent on making the republicans look bad which is hardly objective research.

The study the Prof cited was from an independent group, with "no dog in the fight" actually based in Europe (which would lead one to believe that if they were going to fix the numbers to favour anyone they'd have done it to favour their fellow Europeans)  It doesn't appear they had any agenda.

PS:  what is a "spontaneous firearm incident?"  (serious question...I've not heard the term before).
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johnykat

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2005, 08:47:18 PM »

Wow, this is a sh!tload of posts. Anyway, I feel the need to throw my own 2 cents in here. Forgive me if I bounce around...but I am trying to follow 4 PAGES of comments.

First off...this stupid Michael Moore thing. I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say a majority of all those who fully believe in his "research" do so for one of two reasons:

1. They are completely anti-republican/anti-bush/anti-gun/anti-blahblahblah
or
2. They are two lazy to do some of there own research on teh subject and are ignorant enough to take what is on a film at full face value. Which is completely rediculous no matter what the opinions are.

Now as far as gun laws.

First off Bri...I don't think anyone will argue that we in the U.S do seem to have a problem with kids and guns. There has seemed to be an influx of kids going postal.(But IMHO this is really more of a "parental" issue, then a gun issue. Too many parents refuse to be an active part of thier kid's lives until its to late) But I do wonder if there are not similar stories in the UK. Maybe not kids going into school and shooting everyone...but how about stats on kids and street crime?

I think the basic argument that some of us here in the land of the free are trying to make is that by removing your citizen's basic rights to own weapons (ie firearms for this discussion), you are greatly reducing the honest persons ability to defend himself and/or his loved ones.


The standing problem is not only taking weapons of self defense from your citizens hands...but more importantly you are making the criminals jobs that much easier!!!! A country can put up all the bans it wants, that does not affect criminals. Do you really for one second believe that here in the U.S Jeff the dope dealer walks down to the nearest gun store, fills out the paperwork, slaps down a credit card, and waits his required amount of days for a firearm? Hell no, Jeffy walks down to the corner and picks up a $50 heater from Smitty the local hook up. And you would have to be completely ignorant to think that the same exact thing didn't happen all over the world. Call me crazy...but I really doubt that Mikey, who pushes meth to 7th graders, gives a rats ass about pretty much any goverment law...especially one prohibiting firearms. Same thing for Carlos the columbian drug lord, Samuel the human slave trader, Nick the numbers runner, etc...etc...etc.

The bottom line is choice. Responsible citizens should have the CHOICE as to whether they want to own a firearm for personal defense. When the big hand of the goverment comes down and delivers a cosmic bitch-slap by saying.."ohhh no no no...you can't have that". You are taking away not only there freedom to choose, but there freedom and ability to properly defend themselves. Remember...criminals LOVE gun control laws, it makes thier job that much easier.  You can take all the statistics you want and fucking toss them. That right there is what is all about. Having the ability to make sure you and the ones you love live to see the next goddamn day.

And I hope what I am about to say next doesn't offend any of the LEO's here. Cause believe me, not only as a citizen....but as a paramedic...I love you cops. You help make sure my ambulance drivin ass makes it home safe. That being said...if there is someone breaking into my house...there is a saying I once heard that goes something like:

"A gun in the hand is better then a cop on the phone."
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Chris Roberts

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2005, 01:42:40 AM »

I think it is fair to say that no man on this board is a hudredth as qualified as I am re gun crime in the UK.  Not even a millionth.

Call me stupid (again), but the man who goes to the river and catches fish every day doesn't need to provide research to prove there are fish in it.

Wow - that's an incredibly arrogant thing to say - I can only assume you know the background of every single person contributing to this forum.....

And on your metaphor of the fisherman, yes, he knows the fish are there - but that doesn't mean he knows anything about how they got there, how to maintain stocks, erosion of the banks, etc... etc... etc...  Much like a professional footballer is not automatically a great groundsman....  I drive a car to work and back everyday, does that make me an expert on traffic control....  shall I go on?

Chris.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2005, 04:38:27 AM »

Chris, merely driving a car is not the same as being in charge of the policing of traffic incidents throughout an entire county for four years.  If you held a strategic position in Road Policing or the Highways Agency, then 'd say that you're view of the problem was pretty valid.  But merely being a road user doesn't cut the mustard.  See the difference?  But feel free t "go on".  maybe you'll find a valid comparison by chance.  I've already had "stupid" and "arrogant" from you.  Should I throw insults back?  It seems that you relate to them.  You're getting pretty personal here.  Not that I'm arsed.  It's just that you resorted to it without a great deal of provocation.  Well, none actually.  By the way, you forgot to comment and all that research that you seem to think is so important.

Ninor, don't forget I'm not advocating Moore at all.  I purposefully pointed that out.  But people are proving my point, that one man's research is another man's toilet paper.  One of the ways we declare it so is to claim that it is not objective.  He would say that it is, just like people who find research that supports their arguments always do (and vice versa).

Prof - I'm an ignorant prat?  Thanks mate.  It's an improvement on "sheep".  You also feel the need to hide behind insults.  Mind you, it seems that you hide behind guns also, much for the same reason.  Seems to me that "freeedom" to some of you people equates "I get my own way or else the bullets will fly."

johnykcat - thanks for the poiints my friend.  I love that "gun in the hand" line.  Like I said, I have no problem with the 2nd Ammendment.  People are automatically assuming that I have.  I am merely pointing out to those superior people that they, and their culture, is of no more intrinsic worth than anyone else's.  There s no need to condemn a different culture to your own (which I know you haven't done).   As regards kids in school?  There have ben fatalities.  They are incredibly rare, the last one being January 2003 as I recall.  These things happen so rarely that they make all the Nationals and all the TV stations uin the entire country.  There was another potentially violent death in school in Manchester recently.  But it turns out that the kid, who was merely brawling, had an undiagnosed heart defect.  The poor lad could have just as easily died playing soccer.  There was no weapons involvment anyway.


Interestingly, no one has told me how many people are killed by guns in the States compared to the UK.  Why is that?

And can we kill the insults?  An armed society is supposed to be a polite society after all.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2005, 05:07:52 AM by Bri Thai »
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Chris Roberts

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2005, 05:12:07 AM »

Bri,

Am I mis-reading this or did you just support my comment? Maybe I wasn't clear. Anyway, to respond to your points...

Stupid - didn't call you that, but did say that your statement re research was stupid - there is a difference. But if I offended you with this, I apologise - even the most intelligent of people can do stupid things when emotions are involved and I don't know you, so can't say either way here. However, stand by my comment that to refuse to research is plain stupid - do you base your opinions soley on your own experiences? What about the experiences of others? Surely without research you're limiting yourself to a very narrow perspective?

Your research - a good start and some interesting points made - that's what we needed from the start of this debate, not a refusal to even look into it. I don't think it's important, I KNOW it's important.

For the record, I'm yet to decide where I stand in this debate. Like you, I don't want to see everyone in the UK carrying guns, but if that's the best way to go, maybe we should. I'm willing to listen to both sides make their case so that I can make an informed decision. Please re-read my posts if you feel I've said otherwise at any point.

Arrogant - stand by that 100% - if it offends? Tough.

Chris.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2005, 05:16:03 AM »

Arrogant.  Yes.  I like it. ;D
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Hock

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2005, 07:58:47 AM »

I am almost finished with:
Freakonomics, a new bestseller by Levitt and Dubner.
It is a radial look at statictics, research and conclusions and worth reading.
Levitt is a radical with, and as we would say in Texas, "no dog in the hunt." He doesn't care about the issues he investigates, just the numbers. No slant.

If I ever had a national column, (and that would be dream come through) I would call it The BIg Picture, because in all the arguements about everything in life, the generic, no-position, bigger picture is never dicussed.

All arguements about guns must be framed in the big picture of population and gun numbers.  In the USA, there are now about 300 million people. There are some 200 million guns of all types. How there aren't a few hundred thousand people shot every day is truly amazing (as an aside there are 6 million swimming pools in the USA. More children die in these pools. The likehood is 1 in 11,000 kids drown and 1 in a 100,000,000 are shot...just an aside)

The guns here in the USA are a cultural phenominia. Much of the USA is still rural.
In the Texas city where I worked as a cop, we had farmers and ranchers driving 50 minutes  into town wearing a gunbelt wth a mutli-long gun, shotgun rack in their truck, buying groceries in the supermarket.
   The more civilized the city becomes, the more suburbs eat up the surrounding areas, the more outreaching and rural the supermarkets get, and suddenly you have a central-large city with enforced gun laws. Meanwhile the ranchers and farmers are still shopping with guns on out in the border, outskirts and waving "hi" to the local police chief and sheriff as they go.

I have a few pistols around here, but I really don't care much for guns and knives. I go to the shooting range as a mandatory chore, like a trip to the dentist. It bores me horribly when balanced against the training of shooting people with sims. They are tools and hold no fascination for me.  I am instead fascinated with tactics. I always felt this gave me a unique perspective as a teacher. I don't like weapons, persay...I just like them handy.

As another anecdote incident, I was on a security, foot patrol with a South Korean, ROC Marine SGT. in South Korea in the 1970s and he told me in his broken English,

"You will never be invaded in the United States."
"Yeah?" I responded.
"Yeah, everybody got guns."

He later added that we were all crazy and had guns. It is not that simple, of course. Geography has a lot to do with that. But I thought of that remark when strolling through the British Military Museum in London and looking over the World War II crisis of nazi invasion. The general populace had no weapons and were inventing and stockpiling improvised weapons. Just a small anecdote inside a big picture. Does it mean anything? You tell me. Traveling has given me a big picture view of our crazy world and I see so much of the pro and anti arguements as myopic, partisan sniping.

(In the great historical book, the Devil and the White City, it was revelaed that there were more handguns shootings in the city of Chicago than there were in the wild west in decades of the late 1800's.)

Another anecdote is as eactly as Bri Thi mentioned, the stats are regional. One large Texas City would go mad with auto thefts for one year and our whole state would be in the top five states for auto theft that year! Yet, most other Texas cities experienced a slight decrease from the prior year.
    A lot of American s teens are killed by handguns each year, but they are inner city, gang-related. This teen problem is a growing problem now in the UK where it is becoming popular for teens in large cities to carry pistols.
 
But, juggling clear-cut answers from a population of 300 million people is really hard.
It is all cultural. A big picture question is what is the size of the British population and how many guns are estimated to be there already? How many are coming in? How? Starting from there, decisions must be weighed. Part of that decision process is the geography and culture of the country.

Hock
« Last Edit: June 10, 2005, 08:29:48 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Bri Thai

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2005, 06:21:22 PM »

I've somehow found myself almost in the habit of disagreeing with people on this thread.  The "sheep" thing just got my blood up.

But I can't find anything to disagree with in that post.
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andy fisher

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Re: Kitchen knives in the UK
« Reply #59 on: June 13, 2005, 04:07:05 PM »

Hi Guys

My first post on this forum - I'm one of Joe Hubbard's students in the UK and this thread caught my eye - once I clawed my way past all the unnecessary cheap shots (!) there was much food for thought. 

I instruct private security officers (door staff, security guards, CP operatives etc) in conflict management and physical intervention and so any changes in legislation around the right to bear arms is very important to me.  I also work the doors myself on occasion so it has personal impact too - the long walk to my car at the end of the night seems longer since extendable batons were outlawed!!

I recently purchased an airsoft pistol in order to begin exploring the gun modules in the curriculum and while I can understand that a foolish minority might be inclined to use replica firearms to commit crime, It frustrates the hell out of me that my government's reaction to 'gun crime' is to legislate against airsoft and the like - there are enough firearms in circulation that the criminals will find them when required while the rest of us must yield yet more ground. 

I don't want to see British bobbies armed to the teeth but I think it's only a matter of 'when' rather than 'if'...and suddenly it seems that the only individuals who will not be equipt will be lawful citizens - a recipe for sleepless nights perhaps??  I've signed all the relevant petitions and will in due course write to my MP but alas the democratic system in the UK does not seem to take the people's opinions into account these days (an irony I know but short of revolution, what can ya do?) - it would seem almost inevitable that these new laws will be passed.

On a somewhat more positive note - a carefully selected pen can still ensure that the average British 'Sheep' might still inflict righteous harm if necessary but I wouldn't place odds on a Mont Blanc vs. a tactical folder!!

Perhaps I'' move to the States and take my chance?!!

Anyway - play nice fellas and thanks for the cerebral stimulation. ;)
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