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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Author Topic: NYPD and Fighters training  (Read 10305 times)

whitewolf

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NYPD and Fighters training
« on: March 22, 2011, 08:56:08 AM »

This video is a demo of some tactics shown by a Mr Alain Cohen-you  can see they are composite of various styles-WW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2eOQfkn9I&feature=feedu
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:56:20 PM by Hock »
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Kentbob

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 09:18:03 AM »

Well, that was probably one of the better clips that you've posted.  With a couple exception.  Obviously these things can be taken out of context, but what was with that strange, knife-passing, back and forth drill?  I saw two of them, side to side low, and side to side high.  It actually looks like it would be fun to do, just not like...a lot.

More than a lot of other people that you've posted, that guy looks like he knows his stuff.  The pistol disarm stuff was a little shaky, I thought, but that's just me. 

Kent
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 10:11:28 AM »

Kent - appreciate the honesty-yes some tactics are better than others -I liked this because unless I am wrong the trainees are guys who are actually on the street defending the public. The Instructor has a pretty good reputation as far as i know.
I attempt to find vidios that have some good tactics in them- its up to the viewer to decide -good or bad- talking about good vidios- i just looked at the one on knife defenses i asked for- Hock sent that great one from his friend in Australia-some good good moves there-i saw u feel the same-
R/S WW
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Hock

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 11:00:57 AM »

That knife passing drill...(done very POORLY and DANCEY) on that film is part of Filipino knife drill.


Hock
(I will still never understand the cult-like fascination of all things Krav)

whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 12:57:29 PM »

Ah- Being envlved with KM must be a Jewish thing- ;D WW
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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 05:35:43 PM »

The New York Police Course? Can you verify that there were any NYPD there?

Besides the marketing where is something new?
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 05:53:06 PM »

No i cannot verify if the NYPd or fire depart is there- i dont care----i liked some of the tactics-use what you can  skip the others-----WW
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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 07:45:50 PM »

I think you're confusing techniques and tactics. He's showing techniques but very little in the way of tactics, unless the tactic is the common one among youtube instructors of performing techniques on a static compliant meat puppet. I'm not trying to be an ass, but likely succeeding anyway, but at a certain point tactics are more important than 1,000 techniques.

Different local but same youtube approved tactic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A21tq1QKOlU&feature=related

Techniques
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUhEaan1eR0&feature=related
but it did remind me of this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vx4J_NtNPk&feature=related
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 08:42:26 PM »

Noload-yes sir  u r right- in all respects- especially in picking the last vidio-hot damm
u r the man- R/S  WW
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Hock

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 09:36:13 PM »

Fraid you cannot verify it was a New York Police course. This guy also was under question as being a legit "Master" in Krav by the real Krav originals in the homeland. I think, since, he has had to eat that "master" title. One of those Robb Hamic investgations.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 09:52:34 PM »

Thanks Hock-see thats why i refuse to get involved with any particular group-one never knows-I do respect Mr Hamic and his methods- i have had corespondance with him on Krav Maga. R/S WW
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Kentbob

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 06:44:06 AM »

Uh, yeah, but if you're posting videos of people with false claims, you are legitimizing their claim to whatever title they see fit.

A healthy amount of skepticism would probably go a long way towards improving your overall skill set.


Kent
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JimH

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 07:02:41 AM »

This was not an NYPD Course.
It was offered as a Security Guard and law enforcement course.
It  was open to any and all Police and Security officers as well as first responders,but I understand others not in those professions attended,some civilians from other KM schools.

Robb Hamic,found that Alain Cohen has a Black Belkt awarded to him in Krav Maga,the question is how he calls himself a master when he never tested above 1st degree black belt.
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 07:17:18 AM »

Kent-dont think i got the time to check out background of each vidio and the instructor who demos on it-besides that I dont know that if i did some type background check (if possible) that the checker is legitamet him self-?????  so I just look at the tactic itself-
Can it work?
Will it fit into Hocks 5 W,s in a self defense situation? (very important to me)

JimH-good morning- question how far up the BB chain does one have to be to be a instructor in you opinion?

From what I understand in many many styles- A student after training and makes a istdegree BB -is a assitant to the chief instructor and teachs/gives demos . As you will know being around awhile in a good school it might take a couple years or more to get promoted to 2nd degree- in the mean time this instructor gains valuable knowledge and training pointers and continuous the training of students. In the case of Alain-dont know how long, where, how, when,why but he is out there doing his thing-its ok with me.
R/s WW

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JimH

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 07:37:32 AM »

Hi WW,
The question is not if he is qualified to teach.
I was clarifying what the question on Mr Cohen is:
Mr Cohen was awarded a First Degree BB in KM,so he can teach.
The problem is he says he is a " MASTER " KM Instructor which is 5-6th degree.
He got his black belt 5 years ago and has never tested above his 1st degree.
He is a legit Black Belt and can teach,he is just not a "Master" level instructor.
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Hock

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 07:42:36 AM »

JimH-good morning- question how far up the BB chain does one have to be to be a instructor in you opinion?


It is not whether he is up a chain to be an instructor or not. Just don't call yourself a Krav Master (with a capital M) when you are a not a Master, when there is a master rank available in the very system you say you are still with.

We in the SFC have a abstract masters rank at level 10. But it is clearly defined as like a Gun range master or a School master as in the military and police world, NOT the martial arts Master world.  The martial arts Master world is a whole mixed bag of titled, grandiose meanings and Krav Maga is formed and adheres to a martial arts structure.

It is also misleading and grandiose to clam this is a NYPD training course. There are about 6 or 8 guys there in school the size of a closet. And most police agencies could never grab a guy's throat and legs to carry a person off a shown. The throat is a no-no touch area and is described as a lethal force move, not a prisoner escort move.

Hock
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 07:49:53 AM by Hock »
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 07:46:32 AM »

JimH- opps u r right- thats what i get for rushing through posts-In fact to me Master means long long lonmg time working up the chain- maybe never to reach the master level
guess in the world of martial arts -many just say " Yep I am a master"-take care  WW
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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 10:36:51 AM »

It is also misleading and grandiose to clam this is a NYPD training course. There are about 6 or 8 guys there in school the size of a closet. And most police agencies could never grab a guy's throat and legs to carry a person off a shown. The throat is a no-no touch area and is described as a lethal force move, not a prisoner escort move.

And I think that may show the actual knowledge this expert has about what he's teaching. Often I see guys who are incredible at techniques and drills but with no clue towards what is usable by their audience/students.

BTW, How come these guys all seem to walk into a dangerous scenario with their head up their butt, but then can suddenly turn into a ball of fire moving at light speed even knowing where and what kind of weapon the bad guy just pulled out and a cool technique for each one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy3jUbWV_A4&NR=1
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Hock

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 10:40:36 AM »

This gun video, can you not help but notice how, when they flashdance around, they point their pistols right at each other? That might instead be a good time to practice friendly fire safety?

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 10:50:30 AM »

Noload- good point concerning the demo person is just not aware of anything and immediately changes into super hero- i think that if both the attacker and the victim would role play a bit more where they are in the zone of attack/defense and go fro there
into the technique (and see if it works then????)-we have been trying that at the school
and interesting things occur-(sometimes the technique  gets screwed up )
good to prctise in that way-again good point. WW
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Canuk

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2011, 11:20:32 AM »

It is also misleading and grandiose to clam this is a NYPD training course. There are about 6 or 8 guys there in school the size of a closet. And most police agencies could never grab a guy's throat and legs to carry a person off a shown. The throat is a no-no touch area and is described as a lethal force move, not a prisoner escort move.

And I think that may show the actual knowledge this expert has about what he's teaching. Often I see guys who are incredible at techniques and drills but with no clue towards what is usable by their audience/students.

BTW, How come these guys all seem to walk into a dangerous scenario with their head up their butt, but then can suddenly turn into a ball of fire moving at light speed even knowing where and what kind of weapon the bad guy just pulled out and a cool technique for each one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy3jUbWV_A4&NR=1

LOL did anyone else notice when at the end of that clip where they move the guy into the van and then he suddenly appears in  the driverís seat when the van pulls away
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:22:49 AM by Canuk »
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 11:48:54 AM »

that was his twin brother -also the guy being carried did not fight spit sream kick-just relaxed and was carried away to never never land-(i know i put the vidio out-oh well)
WW
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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 03:53:57 PM »

Or a brilliant KM technique of stealing the kidnapper's own van and kidnapping them in turn.



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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2011, 04:00:59 PM »

So, with all the silliness, lack of context, compliant partners, etc how does someone pick out what is a good or bad technique?
After all if the other guy is willing and I stack the deck in my favor I can solve all self defense  situations with a pinky or thumb lock. So when we say "that's a good technique" what criteria is being used? 

Compare this demo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A21tq1QKOlU
with this car jacking...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk9r2QeTeYY

...does this instructor look to have a solution for it? Has he ever considered something like it?

So are the guys we're looking at problem solvers or just guys who specialize in nice demonstrations? To me it's important to know as that's what they'll be teaching and what you'll be learning.
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whitewolf

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2011, 04:13:05 PM »

Noload-what a difference- the second vidio says it all-I really dont know how one could
get a sanario to be as real as that was. One could almost feel that the criminals would do just about anything during the execution of the crime.
I would say though maybe show the two type vidios to a class and have them make comments and suggestions on what to do. what do u think of that?
I would say that showing a vidio would give a  student some things to think about-similar to sitting in a simulator and respond to actual problems on the screen.
As we get into the 22n century I feel that there will be a lot of new training ideas comming to the forefront-look at how the armed forces train now and what they use for equipmwent-not like when i was in vietnam in the late 60,s-
Please keep up with your input- it helps all of us- R/S Whitewolf
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noload

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Re: another training vidio-this one has NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2011, 04:42:57 PM »

Showing the videos and having them problem solve is fine, as long as they also realize that there may not be a good clean solution to the scenario. They have to realize that any options they come up with will likely cost them. Some guy wants your car and you give it to him, bye bye car and maybe your self esteem. You want to fight for it you may get shot or stabbed, win or lose.

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whitewolf

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Re: NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2011, 05:15:19 PM »

agree-what is missing from vidios/practise sanarios -is the real mind set of the attacker-
he really wants to hurt/rob/kill/maim the victim- that really cannot be reproduced-so the
student knows that he/she will go home after the training-in real life he/she may not.
So how do we introduce some type training that helps the student see what to  do ?
Repeat repeat repeat till they see it comminmg? One thing needed is a instructor who has been there....- Great question to have answered..
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JimH

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Re: NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2011, 09:39:49 PM »

Get into a car and reproduce the execution of the attack.
Have the people playing the attackers ACT like attackers,curse,swear,grab,push,pull and see what reponses can be done under realistic conditions,or as close as can be gotten .

How about when the first guy approaches the car and sticks his hands inside you grab the hands/arm and put the car in reverse,or go forward ?

How about as he approaches the car and makes demands,when close enough open the door and slam it into him ?

How about as he puts his hand into the car you grab it,pull it,turn it ,and get him close enough to grab his throat and twist it ?

I had an incident while driving a few years back,when cars had pull up button locks
I was the Second car at a red light
Drivers side window down
Guy runs over from between two cars ,left hand on the door ,over down window,near the pull up door button,his right hand grabs door handle and tries to pull door open
Car was left in drive,foot on brake 
My Left hand grabbed his left arm and pulled him to car until face was close enough
Right hand palm heeled him twice in the face
Light turned green and I drove forward

If the instructor and students took the time to do the scenario over and over they could come up with viable solutions.
There are no guarantees but at least there would be some sort of control for the victim if they decided to act and not just give up.

My opinion
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whitewolf

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Re: NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2011, 10:02:12 PM »

Those training ideas are good-we have to role play as good as we can-as far as a attacker reaching into a car-victim has to react immediately-if they are trained to see someone approaching close its time to move the car-if need be into oncomming  lane or on to sidewalk or back up if possible-do something. This includes windows up flashers  on lights being flickered -or use the car as a weapon- turn into the attacker and hit him with car-reolizing this is a last option but if he is approaching and for example has a crow bar or pipe or shaking a bottle at the driver time to turn from victim into attacker. Its hard to say what to do in a actual emergency but those are some thoughts IMHO also. WW
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noload

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Re: NYPD and Fighters training
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2011, 11:09:11 AM »

Get into a car and reproduce the execution of the attack.
Have the people playing the attackers ACT like attackers,curse,swear,grab,push,pull and see what reponses can be done under realistic conditions,or as close as can be gotten .

How about when the first guy approaches the car and sticks his hands inside you grab the hands/arm and put the car in reverse,or go forward ?

How about as he approaches the car and makes demands,when close enough open the door and slam it into him ?

How about as he puts his hand into the car you grab it,pull it,turn it ,and get him close enough to grab his throat and twist it ?

All good Jim, but what about the second guy and the gun? How about while you're doing all of that the significant other shows back up?
How many different ways both good and bad can she get involved? What happens if they disengage you and point the gun at her?

It's not just about being better role players but also being aware that there can be more variables involved in the scenario than just one good guy and one bad guy. It's also pushing the scenario to where our goto solutions start to fail. A lot of folks hate when they run into that but it brings more to the table than always having things work. One other thing we'll do is give a no win scenario and let the student mull it over for a week or two. It's usually a good gut check and often gets the student thinking about all kinds of possible solutions, often messy.
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