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Author Topic: Using the Wall  (Read 8020 times)

Dawg

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Using the Wall
« on: March 28, 2011, 08:41:43 AM »

I was teaching a class just a few weeks ago on using your environment as a weapon; specifically, how to use the wall (or vehicle or any other hard structure) at your back as a tool instead of an obstacle. The basic threat scenario started with just a single hand choke used to slam the student against the wall with an incoming punch from the non-choking hand. The concept was simple: use the wall to your advantage. These were all experienced students with higher than average skills. After demonstrating a couple of different options I was letting them have at it. I wanted to see how many different ways they would find on their own to deal with this scenario.

Long story made short:
I ended up having to show (some of) them, step-by-step, how to use the wall not only as an impact weapon, but as a controlling tool to limit the opponents mobility, maximize the damage from strikes, and even using the wall as an abrasive tool as you drug the opponents face down the wall to the floor for various finishes.

Some students grabbed the concept and ran with it; had some pretty cool stuff happen in those scenarios. Some students needed a play by play commentary. I was kind of surprised; the only thing that was new (to some) was the use of the wall. All of the techniques and strategies had been covered before.

I know the problem with one student in particular is he wants to do everything "right"; even though I tell him that the only "right" thing is to be able to end the threat and get away safely. He's a great student and has improved tremendously over this past year, but I haven't been able to get him away from analyzing the particular techniques to defeat a scenario and just focus on the concepts of the exercise.

I know this is an instructor problem and NOT the fault of the student. I prefer to teach a concept and let people use the techniques we've trained in their own way, in their own "style" to defeat the opponent in any given scenario. I feel this will give them  confidence to deal with any situation as it unfolds, rather than be fearful because the assailant is not behaving or reacting as someone might have in class.

So, I still think I'm doing the right thing by focusing on teaching concepts rather than a step-by-step, technique-by-technique approach to each scenario. Most folks seem to get it. But sometimes, I do wonder. :-\

I'll be going over this material again next week (it was a big hit with the students, at least!) and see if anything is different. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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whitewolf

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Using the Wall
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2011, 09:04:15 AM »

Morning Dawg-here IMHO-are some ideas- try them- might help this particular student
from what u say  he is probably that way outside the school- so try this.it has worked here for me-first show him the first movement only=have him do it repeatedly- then show second move-have him do ist and then second- THEN-Have him do ist and second together-then third only then tell him to think one move ahead in his mind while doing the complete  tactic-what he is doing is going step by step (like doing a math problem)-if he thinks one or two steps ahead he will speed up the reaction process (hopefully)-

Next blind fold him-teach him to TRACK the opponents hand and respond- (no time to think)-this is the way blind or impared students are taught Judo in many schools

Last ask him if he  has ever been really attacked (use finanse when asking-it might trigger a flashback)-he might have to work through some past experience...

Hope that helps partner- stay  safe- hope some day to train with you-WW Richie
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Kentbob

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2011, 09:23:25 AM »

I was thinking about this problem yesterday, using the wall.  I was sparring with some people, and one guy in particular was much faster than I was, and made use of the entire floor to stay out of my range, no matter the adjustments I made to my footwork or style.  I looked at the problem, and I realized that if I'd had a wall or a corner to back him into, it would have been a completely different story, as I would have been able to cut off his mobility by utilizing the obstacles, which would have allowed me to get in close where I could take advantage of training and reflex, as well as a lot of CQC techniques that work much better in tight.

Interesting that you brought this up today, Dawg.  I am a big fan of giving someone the cheese-grater treatment if you get them down on the ground, but to be honest, I had not thought of doing so against a wall.  Good thinking!

Kent
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2011, 11:30:30 AM »

WW,
Yeah, I pretty much go over the root scenario the way you suggest:
Step 1 a few times, then...
Step 2 a few times, and finally...
Step 3 a few times. Put it all together and have at it!

But, there are so many variables that can occur just from Step 1, including how well you were able to react to getting slammed into the wall. Are you 100%, a little diminished from the impact or completely unable to breathe from the hand wrapped around your throat? Is the non-choking hand immediately inbound or is he loading up a haymaker from China? Various techniques could be used to react to each of these situations that could arise from the same scenario, but the concept is how to use the wall effectively as a tool against your assailant rather than allowing him to continue to use it against you. I really don't want to have 30 different "Standing Against the Wall Combat Scenarios"! Then I'd have to break it down to numbered series of "Side Against the Wall", "Grounded Back Against the Wall" and "Crap! I'm Lying on My Belly and My Face is Against the Wall" type scenarios. Just the the thought of that makes my head hurt! :o

So, I'm just trying to get the students to make the connection between the drills and more common scenarios we go over predominately in class and how to use the skills they already have to overcome situations not typically covered in the classroom. Then I throw in a couple of things here and there that I've learned from experience could make things a little easier.

Don't know about the blindfold thing; I'll have to think about that one. Thanks for the suggestions!
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2011, 11:48:10 AM »

Interesting that you brought this up today, Dawg.  I am a big fan of giving someone the cheese-grater treatment if you get them down on the ground, but to be honest, I had not thought of doing so against a wall.  Good thinking!
Kent

Thanks! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then! ;D

The cheese-grater affect is just a bonus; I use the pain from the wall as a distraction before I transition from the wall position to a choke or restraint. Sometimes this is just half way down the wall or sometimes ALL the way down with an impact into the floor followed by whatever the particular situation calls for.

A lot of the stuff used in the current style of cage matches are actually quite applicable to this scenario. Plus, the wall and the floor don't have the give to them that the mat and the cage have, so the majority of your strikes are much more effective. Another benefit is no ref penalizing you for using kicks and knee strikes against a grounded opponent. ;)

Of course, my favorite is just to ease up a little and "SLAM!", ease up a little and "SLAM!" his head into the wall a couple of times. A little tenderizing covers a multitude of technical sins.

Have fun!
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whitewolf

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2011, 12:10:47 PM »

Dawg- to add a little to this for all of us-the attack should have a helmet on (at least)
the scenario is  this: the wall simulates a ATM-victim is approached-attacker is right behind-
victim turns-attacker is reaching or actually is at throat with at least one hand-
at this point the victim starts his one palm to face area-othe hand is coming AT SAME TIME-to attackers free arm (elbow area)-snaps it up-using C grip-ducking under arm -spins around to rear of attacker and with both hands drives attackers head to ATM (wall)-then escapes area.
Your student who is a step by step man should practise without a partner using a punching bag if possible to get the speed-what you are doing is moving the palm strike,stepping around and c grip basically at the same time-it is fast and he does not think just does it. i have a 58 year old female doing this technique and she dopes pretty good. WW
« Last Edit: March 28, 2011, 12:38:37 PM by Hock »
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arnold

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2011, 05:06:21 PM »

And I thought I made your head hurt?!
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noload

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2011, 08:36:49 PM »

Sometimes it is a student problem and not the instructor. Some people, like myself, just see things in a different way. They'll make the simple complex at the drop of a hat. Instead of going step by step with him, which may keep him focusing on doing it "right", you may want to go the other way, don't let him do it "right". 
I inherited a guy who is very analytical and what I use is to keep enough pressure on him to keep him from stopping to analyze what he was doing. It was explained to him that he had to get the technique workable or at least respond with something workable. The only thing he couldn't do was start to think because we weren't stopping. Afterwards we'd analyze the technique to death but only after he got it down. So far it's seemed to work.
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 05:09:18 AM »

noload,

I've been trying to do that a little more each time he stops and analyzes; guess it's time to stop trying and just not give him the time to stop and think things over. I'll give it a shot tonight.

Thanks!
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2011, 05:37:44 AM »

And I thought I made your head hurt?!

You make everyone's head hurt!

But, since you make even your OWN head hurt, we can't really complain. ::)
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2011, 06:25:48 AM »

Some people need step-by-step instruction- this is where Hock's 10-Level program comes in to play.  If you find that some people cannot take a concept and run it through a scenario (or "sanaireo" as WW calls it), they are simply not ready to participate in that kind of training. 

It would be great as instructors if we could fit everybody into the same box, but it just doesn't work that way.  Better at that stage to leave the blindfolds at home (as impairing your senses will do you no good when learning new things or learning to cope with different levels of stress) and have those particular guys just watch; be sure that they are understanding what they watched when you go through the After Action Review.

Joe 
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whitewolf

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2011, 07:03:32 AM »

Morning Joe=ah you are right-scenario is the the correct spelling- ::)-anyhow (and i am going to check the spelling here)-Reason I mentioned using a blind fold is that the this might assist Dawgs student in moving forward in his learning the techinque-it would not hurt to try this method- in addition i personally do not think he should be told he is not ready for this wall type trainng- this is a real life type training scenario-attacks of this nature occcur many times-wall attacks should be practised without and with a weapon-if need be get the student aside and have him coached by a senior student-i would not give up on him-number one he is paying for it- number two-he will be taught another scenario  ;D-not be able to do it-? = and then what -Instructor says -OK lets skip this one also....
not good in MHO-I am not saying your thoughts are wrong -just looking at it from my perspective-i know we both have had many students over the years and we have a certain way to pass on training-I have your notes of training in my book-just try mine also
-i dont think it will hurt. WW
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2011, 07:55:39 AM »

Thanks for the input, Joe!

Let me clarify the situation of the one particular student who is having the most difficulty:

He is very familiar with the techniques and tools to be used to overcome the threats in this particular scenario. He's just very analytical and wants to replicate everything I demonstrate, technique by technique. I try to tell him (and show him!) that, when we're doing this at speed, I can't even replicate the exact same techniques everytime! Just too much stuff going on with different reactions from folks during different segments of the scenario. It's SUPPOSED to be a little chaotic; helps to keep it as realistic as you can in a classroom environment.

He's more than ready for this type of training; the fault is probably with me expecting more from him than he was able to demonstrate. He's also a very strong, muscular guy who is worried about hurting someone while we're training. I think this hinders his ability to react and use the techniques available to him. He's one of those guys who is very aware of how strong he is and how badly he can hurt someone if he just cuts loose. He has always exhibited great control in class; I've just got to get him to trust himself and the training more.

WW,
No worries! You've met some of my students and should realize that although they all pay to train with me, every one of them is also a good friend of mine. I think it's just the nature of this business; if your students stay for any length of time there's a bond of friendship that develops between you. I know it helps to motivate me to bring my very best to every class. So, there's no chance of Ol' Dawg giving up on him. NONE!

Thanks for all the input, fellas!
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noload

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2011, 10:51:38 AM »

Something you may want to try with him is a slow is smooth, smooth is fast kind of drill. Have him do the technique at a moderate pace but with no stops or pauses, hopefully that will get him thinking about it as one move and not many steps. Once he gets that down have him do the technique over and over with very little pause. Maybe have him do the technique on every person in class one after the other.
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2011, 11:11:52 AM »

Thanks noload,

I've got some really good ideas now how I'm going to break it all down for the next class.

I'll also move him away from my "lions" in the beginning (they can be rather distracting at times!), and then have him do the drill with them towards the end of class.

Thanks again!
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whitewolf

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 02:05:04 PM »

No load- good thoughts there- our thoughts are on the same wave length-its our job as instructors to bring the student along-it might take a little more but we keep helping them
R/S WW
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Keith Miller

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 05:18:16 PM »

Some of you may recall a certain young man used to have a DVD for sale all about fighting off the wall.

hint hint.  ::)
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 04:46:12 AM »

Hi Dawg

It hard to comment without sitting in on one of your sessions, but the approach that should be used with this sort of student is a series of progressive resistance drills that lead up to a scenario class.  You see, the scenario has to be done at "real time" in order for it to be effective training. It is similar to any kind of performance- you cannot stop to correct mistakes until the scenario is over, but isolation drills done at varying rates of resistance can be clipped at the beginning and end point of where the student is having difficulty.   In other words- the corrections are made "out of time" allowing the student to actually learn how to survive.  I'm not saying you are doing this, but many classes that run "scenario" nights take students who have covered A,B,C & D but not all the letters in the alphabet that are required to participate in full speed combat scenarios where there is a lot of chaos going on.  With that in mind, all full scale scenario training should be designed for the student to survive- they can't do that without the skills required; it's like expecting a musician to perform with world class musicians when they don't know their arppegios and scales- plenty try to do it, but they suck.

WW
I've already stated in another thread that denying any one of your senses when trying to learn new material is a big mistake and a rookie's error.  It's one thing if you can already fight well, but if you haven't aquired the proper skills yet, then it will hold the leaner back. 

Joe

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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 05:30:46 AM »

Joe,
I agree with you 100%. This particular student had all the skills necessary to successfully defeat the scenario; he just kept stopping here and there when things didn't go exactly as they should have, instead of continuing to fight on and finish his assailant. Several times when I was his partner, he would stop and apologize when he thought he had struck me too hard or hadn't performed certain techniques exactly as I had demonstrated them.

So, we had an extensive debrief after that training session and have continued discussions since. Long story made short:
Last night, while we were working a rather enthusiastic skill development drill, he popped me pretty good. He stopped, backed off and apologized. I told him that, from now on, everytime he stopped in the middle of a drill or exercise to apologize or ask questions (I love to answer questions...just not in the middle of an exercise!) I was going to kick him in the groin.

Sure enough, it wasn't long before he did it again and I made good on my promise. Everybody got a good laugh out of it (I didn't kick him hard; just a love tap!) and we were able to continue the exercise with a minimum of interruptions.

I know you can't do that with everybody, but he's trained with me for a couple of years now and he really knows better. I am going to break the scenario down into more easily digested portions next week before we go all out.

I greatly appreciate all the great input that everybody has provided in this thread; it has really made me analyze the skills and methods I've used to teach folks how to successfully survive these type of scenarios.

Thanks!

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whitewolf

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2011, 08:20:46 AM »

Dawg-funny but that is exactly what is done where I teach-we always have the student contine and not stop in the iddle of a technique-even if he does it wrong he/she has to continue-after its completed we corrrect- (and they have to do pushups)
WW
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2011, 07:39:32 AM »

I thought I'd post a little update on this one:

Last night we performed the "Wall Drill" again. The majority of students present were beginners, so I REALLY broke down the scenario into small chunks and progressed S-L-O-W-L-Y to the complete scenario. I also made sure that my more experienced guys were partnered up with the less experienced, as much as possible.

Had a very successful class; the new folks seemed to enjoy the material (including a guest who was observing) and the more experienced folks were able to really play with all the various tools they could use to successfully complete the scenario.

My favorite "Wait, wait, wait a minute" student didn't interrupt or apologize a single time! ;D

So, as I thought, the problem the last time we ran this drill was with me. I want to give my students all I can, but I've got to remember to do it at their pace and at their level. Actually, it's not that I need to remember to do it; I just need to make it a priority instead of an afterthought.

Just thought I'd share.
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whitewolf

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2011, 08:29:54 AM »

Hey Dawg-the problem is you are too dam  fast- ;D- WW
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2011, 11:21:59 AM »

Thanks...I DO have my moments! ;D

Just need to slow down when I'm teaching. There's a time and a place for everything, including speed.

But honestly, sometimes I just can't seem to help myself!
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Jace

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2011, 03:50:53 AM »

You know Dawg, if this post would have been a few years old, I would have thought you were talking about me... lol...  and damn i don't like your "love taps" or ricks. It's ok though, I used to get rick back by pointing directions to him while he was driving, from the passenger seat...  and you know why that is mean of me... but then again, rick is a sneaky lil snake that will always get his revenge, bad for me, but fun overall.   :)
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Dawg

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Re: Using the Wall
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2011, 05:04:50 AM »

You know Dawg, if this post would have been a few years old, I would have thought you were talking about me... lol...  and damn i don't like your "love taps" or ricks.

If you liked my "love taps", they would cease to be an effective training tool. ;)

Big Dawg's ALL about the love.
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