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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Author Topic: Knife to neck  (Read 7809 times)

whitewolf

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Knife to neck
« on: May 05, 2011, 07:33:23 PM »

For your review-some good techniques to practise-(if you agree)-WW


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdUMl929UA&feature=feedrec_grec_index
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 07:57:24 PM by Hock »
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Kentbob

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 09:48:05 PM »

I thought this looked pretty bad, starting with the initial move.  The tip of the knife appears to still be touching the neck, and nothing is done to alleviate this.  I would have to try it out with a partner for sure, but it looks like all the attacker has to do is make a stabbing motion with the wrist in order to perforate the neck region and do bad things to the person he is attacking. 

It would seem to be better to reach in between the knife arm and the throat, as a way of creating space and being able to push against that knife hand.  Either using the left hand or the right hand.  This tactic looks more like the standard panic response to being attacked from the rear with a choke than a viable defense.  I would use the right hand in between the knife/hand and throat, and with the left hand attempt to secure that elbow and push the knife away at the elbow, creating space to slip through.

That's what I saw.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2011, 10:27:31 PM »

Well, here's the deal.

All the solutions suck because it is a terrible situation.

And despite the martial arts (and Krav) rush to learn an escape from that very exact situation at that very second? Gigantic odds exist that you will not be in that precise hostage situation and even so, what forces your need to EXIT at that precise hostage moment?

Hostage studies show that the situation changes a bit through time, a few moments later, and better to wait to a better position occurs.  If he is a throat slitter killer? You're probably already bleeding.

It is worthy messing around with the situation in classes. Yes.
ANd yes, all the solutions suck.

The classic response is shown and the typical one one for most all martial systems. Clear the throat, step under and out. The video clip is fine in experimenting with a few solutions. You know, you have to mess around with solutions. Why not. So, the guy does a decent job.


Hock
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 08:37:27 AM by Hock »
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 05:25:30 AM »

I'm with Kentbob, 
I thought it looked silly.  Like Hock just mentioned, this situation is happening in an environment, and people are moving and thinking, and possibly fighting.  The knifer can defeat any attempt by taking a few steps backward.  In fact, in a type of choke, using the knife, the knifer is really in a position of the kill.  What I didn't like the most is when he turned his head to get the knife to fully cross his throat.  Maybe not such a good idea.  I think a better solution is to (and this is if you are going to escape at this exact moment) that the knifer's elbow is sticking way out, there is room between the elbow and the victims neck.  It goes like this:
1.  left hand on knife or hand of attacker.
2. right hand slaps elbow inward.
3.  turn to the left, duck, continue turning, now you are almost facing attacker, and the knife has grazed maybe your ear or hair, but now the knife is between you and him, and we wind up at the "in the clutches of" module. 
4.  troubleshoot from there, and fight on.

Mr. Barnett
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 05:50:16 AM »

The responses all  make sense agree this scenario has to be practiced to see what position you are in at the start-As I never  have been in this situation in real life I only can think what it may be like-(as probably 99% of knife instructors )-but as Hock mentions -if this guy was out to cut you-you would have been cut-so we train and see how something like this plays out. Reason I put this one on forum is the explanation seemed more realistic than many I watched. I would add that i think the quicker one responds the better-by waiting it may go from bad to worse-JMHO-looking for more input.

R/S WW







« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 08:36:11 AM by Hock »
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TLE

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 06:40:20 AM »

Agree with Hock 100%. For some reason everyone loves training this scenario.
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck see what occurs-
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 11:57:06 AM »

I think that many  want to practice this as the student always ask- What if?
this occurs. The true instructor would say (hopefully) lets try it and see what happens. If he does not have a answer go research and find one.

If you cant find a answer -ask on the forum-you will surely get a response- ;
D-might not be what u want but it will be there.

R/S WW
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 01:40:44 PM by Hock »
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Blade

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 09:54:10 AM »

Oh yes the technique could work many times, but not always. We trained it many times...
It is actually like Hock mention in his seminars "a lot is situational" as well as the fighter/fitness level of the 2 persons.
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noload

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2011, 07:19:03 PM »

ANd yes, all the solutions suck.

Now Hock, how are we supposed to market that? ;D

Always fun to see a person's face when they finally learn that lesson. I'm sure mine was a good one when I learned it.

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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 07:25:35 PM »

Mr Barnett- we tried the way you explained- actually it is similar to what was shown-one still has to get out turn to front/side depending on both opponents reactions-bottom line is to beat him in you movement and keep on fighting to overcome him by any means possible (and hold on to that goddam hand that has the wpn-)-your aggresivness is needed and draw on strength -continue continue continue. (which is another way of saying  Retzev...R/S WW
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2011, 09:15:20 AM »

I found this one which is a little different in the way victim pushes upper neck and body backward-holds and turns to stab-as Hock says-all situations suck but w have to review to see what can occur to get out-WW




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_o9PhsK0b4&feature=related
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Hock

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2011, 10:42:40 AM »

It's the same move.

Goes to show you that from some situations, there is little one can do to escape.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2011, 11:44:46 AM »

When we try this in class and the attacker really puts strength into the arm with the knife and locks his elbow down- (as Hock just said)-extremely difficult if at all to get out-what should be taught is if at all possibe -dont get into  that position.-still, we hve to train for something like this.-WW
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noload

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2011, 03:40:28 PM »

This is likely a dumb observation, but what is the attacker's goal with the knife to the neck besides letting the "victim" escape?
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Hock

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2011, 04:26:47 PM »

THAT is the million dollar question and refers back to the early responses here.

WHAT is the situation?

If they wanted to kill you it would have been done. Terrorize? Threaten your life to keep others at bay? Escort?

What?

Hock

noload

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2011, 06:07:37 PM »

Present company excluded, but why aren't many of these youtube masters bringing up the question when doing their demo? I was lucky and had a Hakkoryu Jujutsu sensei back in the 1980's who always presented various goals for the "bad guy" in our drills. It sometimes made things easier, sometimes harder, but never static.



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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 08:31:41 PM »

Hock- i  for one do  not know that answer-have you seen this occur as a PO? Maybe they do the training just to say -it might happen-i do know that it does give the student some type of feeling that they could possible overpower the attacker-and possibly the Rodney Domers(spelling?) would not be able to take someone away...We train as taught by you to block and counter so i guess that this particular movement would possibly fall into that catagory?  R/W WW
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noload

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2011, 06:09:05 PM »

Hey WW, Here's a few knife scenes to come up with new scenarios.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCmXBzz8n6Y&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0tKmvBj2pw&feature=related

Not a knife but it shows that timing is often everything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31N17jVKC4g&feature=related
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2011, 07:23:20 PM »

Probably 3 of the best ones to show real life action-appreciate it-ill go over these again
the one where the Tai grabs and takes wpn hand is interesting-he appears to not have paniced but instead reacts -wonder if he had previous experience? Thanks for showing these- WW
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Hock

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2011, 07:34:56 PM »

Whitewolf, a student of the Chinese language, while surfing ChiCom news channels, found this...



Found this one from China-WW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIlT5y6baps&NR=1

whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2011, 07:38:11 PM »

Ah So Round eye- ;D  WW
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noload

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2011, 06:36:02 AM »

What's up with none of the hostage takers using the knife correctly as per the KM (and other's) videos! Don't these miscreants watch youtube or take self defense classes? :o ;D
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whitewolf

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Re: Knife to neck
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2011, 07:38:04 AM »

Noload-darn-they did not take my special counter to the counter life perserve technique which includes a 3 week crash course in Taiwan -all expenses paid  by the student of course-(if they do not speak chinese languge they can fake it-) Not much else to say on the bozos who were on the vidio- :o  WW
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