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Author Topic: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban  (Read 13103 times)

wvnicholson

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UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« on: June 08, 2005, 02:01:24 PM »

The UK government's Violent Crime Reduction Bill proposes to ban sales of replica weapons (apparently including BB guns that fire plastic pellets, I think).  Does anybody know how this will affect airsoft guns (which I've heard are not replicas and cannot be modified for use as real firearms; but are generally realistic looking imitations)?  (Also, maybe I should buy a kerambit now in case the new legislation, which also covers knives, bans any new martial arts weapons along with the balisong, already illegal in the UK...)
William

Anyway, here are some related links:
BBC news - "Crime bill targets replica guns": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4071848.stm
Guardian - "Imitation gun crime rises 66% as overall figures fall": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,1466095,00.html
Guardian - "Ball-bearing gun ban a step further": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,1495129,00.html
Guardian - "Blunkett to host 'rap summit'": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,875213,00.html
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Professor

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 07:10:38 PM »

The UK government's Violent Crime Reduction Bill proposes to ban sales of replica weapons (apparently including BB guns that fire plastic pellets, I think).  Does anybody know how this will affect airsoft guns (which I've heard are not replicas and cannot be modified for use as real firearms; but are generally realistic looking imitations)?  (Also, maybe I should buy a kerambit now in case the new legislation, which also covers knives, bans any new martial arts weapons along with the balisong, already illegal in the UK...)
William

Anyway, here are some related links:
BBC news - "Crime bill targets replica guns": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4071848.stm
Guardian - "Imitation gun crime rises 66% as overall figures fall": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,1466095,00.html
Guardian - "Ball-bearing gun ban a step further": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,1495129,00.html
Guardian - "Blunkett to host 'rap summit'": http://www.guardian.co.uk/gun/Story/0,2763,875213,00.html


I'm sure that the criminals are scared of these extreme measures....

 ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::) 
::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::) 
::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)                     
 ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)


Don't worry about weapons....with proposed gun laws such as these, the criminals will also be at a disadvantage and weaponless.   
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2005, 11:04:30 AM »

That's smiley abuse.

WV, I don't know if it will end up involving air soft type weapons at the moment.  It may do if they look like real firearms, so maybe the answer is to have brightly coloured ones with a slightly unusual design or something?

The problem is that a great many offences are committed by people with replica guns that are very easy to get hold of.  Even toy shops sell brilliant imitations to children.  The people being robbed don't know the difference.

As an aside, neither do the police who are sent to deal. Even members of the public with no criminal intent can end up dead if someone rings the cops about them, and then they do the wrong thing when challenged.

I've heard some people say "well now the criminals will be more likely to use real guns!".  I doubt it.  Some half wit drug addict hasn't got the wherewithall to get a real gun, but can manage a quick trip to the toy shop.

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wvnicholson

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2005, 11:58:23 AM »

Well, I was wondering about availability of airsoft guns that do not look like real firearms.  If you look at airsoft stores on the internet; they really only sell airsoft guns that look like more or less realistic firearms.  (On the other hand, some air guns do not look much like real firearms; but they are generally too powerful for use as airsoft weapons.)  I think people who prefer airsoft sites over paintball sites have generally come to expect more realistic looking equipment.  Also, in the US it is required by law that airsoft weapons have orange paint at the end of the muzzle; but then they still look like real firearms with orange paint at the end...
William




WV, I don't know if it will end up involving air soft type weapons at the moment.  It may do if they look like real firearms, so maybe the answer is to have brightly coloured ones with a slightly unusual design or something?


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Hock

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2005, 01:58:50 PM »

As a rule, I try to buy the clear plastic pistols and the Crossman model I'd like everyone to have at seminars, is sold in clear plastic, hang-up package. Airport people see through the package and pistol immediately it is not a real firearm.

Hock

Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2005, 07:26:54 AM »

That sounds eminently sensible to me.
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wvnicholson

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2006, 01:21:48 PM »

As a rule, I try to buy the clear plastic pistols and the Crossman model I'd like everyone to have at seminars, is sold in clear plastic, hang-up package. Airport people see through the package and pistol immediately it is not a real firearm.

Hock

I looked into possibly purchasing a transparent Crosman airsoft pistol recently at a local shop.  The shop phoned the distributor who told them that the distributor is waiting to hear from the police if the  Crosman airsoft pistol is legal or not and will not know until April.  I think there may be some confusion due to the changes in the law in the UK,
William
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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2006, 01:38:43 PM »

How about passing a law that increases the jail time for using a "toy" gun in the commission of a crime. Seems the Brits always have things back asward. Lets penalize manufacturers and vendors and lawful users for the misuse of the few. Thank God I live in America. If the left doesn't finish off this country that is.
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2006, 01:30:57 AM »

Here we go again-  ;D
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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2006, 05:48:37 AM »

Bri-Thai, I know "here we go again". What is wrong with your country? You never replied to the post. Why does your country do things backwards? If you take a logical look at this law it is clearly not logical. If you ban toy guns because a small percentage are misused, then soon you will be banning baseball bats, steak knives, canes, ect. In fact the latter can actually cause death when misused. The only one that can get killed with a toy gun is the badguy when a cop lights his butt up. Wait UK cops don't carry sidearms nevermind.
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2006, 07:32:12 AM »

Threegun Rant Mode Initiated.  Fully Operational. -  ;)
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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 09:28:12 AM »

Must be unarguable ranting as I have yet to get a rebuttal in 2 posts. I agree that your country is different from ours and some things are better their however logical thinking ain't one of them lol.
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 01:56:29 PM »

Hokey!  You wanna argue?  We argue amigo! -  ;D

Airsoft pistols and the like?  I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence. 

Why?  Because, if not, there's always a bunch of arse-holes who will shoot at cars, dogs and grannies.

Replicas and toys - These should be brightly coloured and bear little resemblance to real guns.

Why?  Because real robbers use them (don't forget, this is not a gun culture over here) to get away with real robberies.  Like you say, who cares if they get shot?  But young males also dick around with 'em, sometimes in very suspicious circumstances.  That's when the armed police get sent, and who wants to see these kids die?  Besides, just what legitimate purpose do replicas have?  What will be lost if we make them illegal?

Baseball bats, steak knives and canes all have a legitimate purpose.  Their use as weapons is banned though (excepting certain circumstances).

You say "Thank God I live in America".  Haven't we had the debate about which country suffers most deaths due to gun crime?

Now you're spoiling fer a fight pardner........Aah sure ain't knockin' ya fer yer 2nd Ammendment..... 

So old chap, why are you trying to put your values into my country?



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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2006, 04:07:50 AM »

Not trying to put values into your country.....just some logical thinking. I agree that it should be made a crime to misuse an airsoft pistol, that is logical. However your country wants to ban them because of misuse.....not so logical.

Quote
Use other than that should be an offence. 

see we agree

You just won't admit that an outright ban is illogical. Really there is no arguement possible here. It is either logical or illogical. I have said and you agreed that it would be logical to place penalties for the misuse of these toys. I have said and you ignored that banning these toys because of the misuse of a few is not logical. To make everyone suffer for the bad actions of the few is not logical. If you disagree please state why?

Bri, It is better to call it debate than argueing LOL.
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Chris Roberts

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2006, 06:26:38 AM »

Isn't it just that in principle at least, a total ban is 'easier'? The government can be seen to be doing something whilst at the same time leaving the potentially unpopular question of where to enforce it up to the police.....

For my part, I want to continue training will a full replica airsoft pistol. If I'm ever unlucky enough to have to defend myself against someone with a gun, I want my training to have been as close as possible to the real thing in all aspects..... hopefully, that'll make my defence that much more instinctive cos I won't be thinking, "no orange tip?! Shit, that thing's real!"

Chris.
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ted murphy

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2006, 08:43:30 AM »

Pretty shady logic, thinking that banning replica guns will do much beyond preventing a law abiding person from owning something he might enjoy looking at or using.  Not hard to make a replica gun, Dillinger took soap and shoe polish and made a gun that convinced enough LE's to let him out of jail.

I suspect after they outlaw this, they will look at some other way to interfere with people's personal lives in the name of "fighting crime".  So sad.

If some dumb kid takes a toy gun and points it at a cop, it is sad when he gets shot, but it also can be considered a latent form of birth control.  Kids these days seem to not understand that there are consequences to their actions, perhaps it is time the govt work on teaching this concept  instead of banning replica guns.


Ted
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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2006, 09:33:31 AM »

Ted, Finally some common sense on this board. One of my biggest peeves are people not accepting blame for their actions. Passing the buck so to speak. Another big peeve is the demonization of something for the misuse done by the few, like guns. Worst than both of those, is the politician who seeks to solve the problem caused by the few, by banning them from everyone. Especially if those politicians are soft on those who misuse them when they are caught.
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 02:29:08 PM »


Airsoft pistols and the like?  I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence. 

Why?  Because, if not, there's always a bunch of arse-holes who will shoot at cars, dogs and grannies.

Its a pity you followed this post with an allegation that I am supporting the ban of air-soft pistols?

Anyway, all kinds of discussion about how easy it is to make a replica pistol (which I clearly hold in a different category to airsoft) and/or stating that people like to own 'em or look at them is illogical in the extreme.  You still havent shown a legitimate actual USE for them.

And that quip about birth control is just a ridiculous one liner.  You could tell it to the parents at the funeral and see what happens.

You want to "debate", but lower yourselves to selectively missing out the points you cannot answer, as well as answering points that I didn't actually make?

Its a good job I know you're nice guys, otherwise I'd get ya with me lime green see through water pistol...... ;D

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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2006, 03:40:49 PM »

Bri, That is the point. Their doesn't need to be a legitimate use for something in order not to ban it. However, I have had airsoft wars at work with coworkers. My kids have used them for plinking at the sticky targets for some great fun. If they didn't have a purpose no one would buy them not to mention that some might see a purpose that you don't. The line of thinking that says it is okay to ban something because "it serves no purpose" is a totally selfish mindset of a people who don't quit understand what "freedom" means.

freedom:being able to act, use, ect freely.
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2006, 04:08:56 PM »

Hokey! 
Airsoft pistols and the like?  I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence. 
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2006, 04:09:27 PM »

Airsoft pistols and the like?  I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence. 
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Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2006, 04:10:28 PM »

Airsoft pistols and the like?  I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence. 

There.  Is three enough?

Does this cost Hock extra money in bandwidth?  Should I make a donation? -  ;)
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Chris Roberts

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2006, 04:22:39 PM »

Quote
Their doesn't need to be a legitimate use for something in order not to ban it

Excellent point! It seems that all too often we restrict the actions / freedom / choices of the majority because of the actions of the few.... but is there an argument that by restricting the availability of full replicas, you'd limit the possiblity of the police shooting someone who, however irresponsibly, was just mucking about with what is essentially a toy? Not saying I agree with this, just trying to look from all angles....

To my mind there are two genuine reasons for owning a full replica - as a training aid or as part of a personal collection. As far as I'm aware, here in the UK it is still legal to own replica swords, knives, fantasy blades, etc, provided you're not parading them down the street.... should these also be banned? Where does it stop?

I'm sure it's been said before on a previous post about real guns, but banning ANYTHING only stops those who respect the law from owning it; if you don't respect the law in the first place, what difference is another one going to make?
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Nick Hughes

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2006, 04:58:11 PM »

Yes, I think they banned illegal drug use in the UK sometime ago...so that would mean there's no illegal drug use in the UK right?

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--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Bri Thai

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2006, 06:08:39 PM »

Actually Ninor makes an excellent point.  If only they'd lift the ban on drugs.  That would mean that there would be far far less addicts about.......  NOT!

No one is saying that you should ban any article that has not got a legitimate use.  They are saying that if an article has not got a legitimate use, AND that article does nothing but harm...... then why not ban it?  Because someone wants to look at it?

I'm sorry you were robbed Mrs Johnson.  But a tiny minority of people like to look at those replica guns, so the rest of us have to tolerate being intimidated by them, not knowing if they are about to take our life or not.  Mind you, you're lucky.  Mrs Smith's boy had 15 bullets in his bonce.......
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Professor

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2006, 08:48:41 PM »

Six months later and the same applies:

- - - - - - - - -  - -

I'm sure that the criminals are scared of these extreme measures....

 ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)


Don't worry about weapons....with proposed gun laws such as these, the criminals will also be at a disadvantage and weaponless.   

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Plus,   "I really can't see a problem with them, but they should be used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence."

 ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)

Are you serious.....?   

I guess the next step is to ban the "water guns" so that the cars, dogs and grannies are safe from abusers.   Unless of course they are used under the supervision of licenced tutors/operators in licenced premises/areas.  Use other than that should be an offence.   I didn't mean your green water gun which is in a licenced operators hands.



Yes, I used less rolling eyes....I didn't want to be called for abuse.   ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 08:50:53 PM by Professor »
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2006, 04:32:16 AM »

Bri,
Quote
I'm sorry you were robbed Mrs Johnson.  But a tiny minority of people like to look at those replica guns, so the rest of us have to tolerate being intimidated by them, not knowing if they are about to take our life or not.  Mind you, you're lucky.  Mrs Smith's boy had 15 bullets in his bonce

Lets see in the future.............I'm sorry Mrs. Johnson but even after banning air soft guns the robber remained and found another way to rob you. Had we strenghtened the penalty for robbery he might still be in jail for the other one that he committed last month. BTW if our country wasn't so restrictive on the lawful use of handguns you could have defended yourself and avoided robbery but that is another thread. Mrs. Smith lost her child in a tragic accident (remember we are in the future). He was dodging trains. He was a good ole chap but a little light between the ears. Mrs. Smith said she new he would get killed in an accident someday.........just to dumb to survive.

The point is Bri, bad guys will find a new way to be badguys not matter what laws you pass. Kids will do stupid things no matter what law you pass. Just accept this fact. Teach the kids not to point an airsoft pistol at police in fact teach them not to point anything that resembles a gun at police.....very simple. When a criminal uses an air soft pistol in a crime put him under the jail......very simple.......and you solve the problem that simply removing the prop used in the robbery leaves behind........THE BAD GUY.....HELLO!!!!!!!.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2006, 01:26:09 PM »

Good post 3 gun.  Bri...good point about the less and more addicts but then it raises another whole tangent of we banned alcohol and the resulting prohibition was worse than legalizing it.  Yes, we now have alcoholics and drink drivers etc but we punish them i.e. the drink drivers and the abusers rather than penalizing the guy who wants a social drink and can handle his booze.

I see the gun issue a little the same way...sure we have abuses of people using guns unlawfully so, as three guns points out, penaize the living crap out of them, and leave the guy alone who is a responsible gun owner and user.

In certain cities here they've introduced a bill where, if you're found with a weapon on you during the commission of a crime, it's automatically five years in prison.  They have ads up on billboards and they take out tv spots (going to the length of contacting an ad agency to figure out how to reach their target audience of drug dealers and gang bangers).  The ads explain the penalty which is five years federal time for the weapon as well as whatever else you get.

Federal time by the way is different from local county and State jails.  Five years federal is five years and the federal jail may be on the other side of the country so your friends don't get to visit.

Result..cops (in Richmond VA) for example who were interviewed by Time magazine for a piece on this measure said they're now not finding many bad guys carrying any more.  In other words real jail time does scare these maggots.

N

PS:  I have a serious question for you by the way...have you ever been over here to the States?  If not, I'm extending an invitation - seriously.  I think you'd be extremely surprised by just how un-violent here is compared to the UK.  (Sounds crazy I know but I've lived in both...trust me, the UK is worse)

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ted murphy

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2006, 07:45:15 PM »

And that quip about birth control is just a ridiculous one liner.  You could tell it to the parents at the funeral and see what happens.

Of course there is nothing like a kid dying stupidly to make him a saint.  They seem to get more press and interest than some poor kid dying of disease.  Some lady near me has an entire shrine complete with angel statues memorializing her kid who got stoned and took 4 other kids with her.  She still maintains it was a govt conspiracy that took her baby away. (pity mom wasn't in the car)

Still, that is what I believe, that kids that dumb are best not permitted to live long enough to breed, so it's kind of nature balancing the species, i.e. a latent form of birth control.  I don't think it's a funny quip, but a hard reality.

Hard and mean, but still true and not "ridiculous".

I didn't make the world hard.

Ted



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threegun

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Re: UK Violent Crime Reduction Bill and possible replica ban
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2006, 06:37:05 AM »

The problem with our country and the UK is that people avoid the "hard and mean" truth. Sugar coating things to the point of losing prespective. I maintain that this has caused both countries to forgo logic in lawmaking (especially in UK). Trying to keep from hurting feelings and such. The criminal is made to look like the victim. They are given multiple chances to victimize the population. After all it wasn't their fault, something made them do it, poor upbringing, daddy beat them, ect. Meanwhile the people suffer and the criminals flurish. Politicians blinded by this way of thinking would rather ban an item than get tough on the misuse of said item. 99.9 percent of the airsoft pistols are used legally yet the .1 percent get babied.

Ted, I agree that the fatally dumb person is better off dead.

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