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Author Topic: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch?" "Fingers in their Ears?"  (Read 5178 times)

noload

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Saw this pop up on my Facebook page and then suddenly disappear. I did catch some of the original discussion but that's also gone. What's interesting is the lack of even entertaining an opposing view point to verify that what you believe is correct. This fellow, for me, sums up the wrong way to think about anything much less martial arts. For something that's supposed to be practical  (self defense) I'm always amazed at how much dogma people will grab on to.

Quote
Why Startle-Flinch?   Video: http://youtu.be/nLq-e2aqIO0   The video entitled ‘Why the startle-flinch” is my favorite Coach Blauer video for a few reasons.

However, before anyone reads this I have 3 rules for you and if you cannot abide by these, this post isn’t for you. First, if you are going to argue about what the human body does naturally during an ambush and think that you can override it, go read something else. Second, if you are going to argue about physiology, science and research, this isn’t for you. Thirdly, and most important. If you are going to use someone’s lifelong dedication to learning, experimenting and teaching only to call that work and research your own and not reference the person like a true professional; shame on you.  These are very simple rules. As I share some of my reasonings about why this video is awesome, you will understand why these rules are important to me.   The first reason why this video is awesome is because for me, I like things that are very simple, very effective, and have more bang for the buck.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tony-Blauer-the-SPEAR-System/230629434837
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 09:09:32 AM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 05:09:32 PM »

Am I part of that discussion? If so they already removed several of my comments.
They were good ones too.

Hock

noload

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Re: Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 06:24:15 PM »

I believe you were Hock and they were good comments. That was one reason I tried to find it after it fell off the FB radar. I came across a few other sites by followers of Mr. Blauer and all had the same fingers in ears attitude (or the standard "you don't understand the spear" retort). For the followers of someone who uses "science" to support his revolutionary ideas to reject new or additional information on said ideas is strange. What would happen if their coach said the same things, would they still reject it? Their not leaving room to be wrong.
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Kentbob

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Re: Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 06:29:22 PM »

There are quite a few people in all walks of life who don't let science get in the way of their beliefs.  I can't figure out why the CrossFit community is enamored with Tony Blauer, except that he just has cool names for everything, I guess.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 08:21:20 PM »

How this started, by accident -

So I was speed-reading over some of the Facebook news flashes the other day and my eye caught one of the little news boxes with the words startle reflex from one of my listed friends. When I see that term "startle reflex," I often ship people my startle reflex article link and quickly say, “the common perception amongst the educated today, is that what is commonly taught a dead test from about 80 years ago.” (the 1939 Landis-Hunt study)Words to that effect. Modern research as well as clips from America’s Funniest Videos now detail over 30 different startle responses to the ambush "boo!" Not just the 80 year-old infamous "1939 Landis-Hunt Crouch." I did not click on the page. A kid named Mike Osborne who is a friend on Facebook. I just added a quick remark with a link. Then I moved on. Left. the net.

A reply quickly came from a guy named Ryan? (I thought this was Mike Osborne's page?) This guy Ryan (not a friend on Facebook by the way) proceeded to chew me out about disrespecting Coach Blauer. Little did I know, I had just parachuted into….Tony Blauer land.

For those who don’t know. Blauer is the king of Startle/Flinch land, the absolute always-happens, reflex that must lead to SPEAR-land. And the raised arm “spear” is all you really need to know about fighting. Man, woman, child, any shape, any size, any age, any strength, standing or on the ground, they have the SPEAR for you.  And, he thinks he has changed the world. And honestly, his top people are a bit on the zealot side. It is like a personality trait for some.

Ryan begins a respect speech lecture to me about "Coach Blauer" and respect, Respect for…respecting…Respect Coach Blauer. World pioneer in… and he hoped that I would show Coach Blauer the proper respect if I were a guest in a Coach Blauer seminar (that ain’t gonna happen). I needed to show Coach Blauer proper respect. Respect. Respect. Disrespect.

Okay, well...not one word about the research or the article, just about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Then he said later that he saw that we have an ad on our webpage for the Spartan suit. He said that explained everything, suggesting I must have be in cahoots with anti-Blauer people who stole the suit design and bug all things Blauer. ( I do not know who these these guys are) I have used and liked Blauer's suit in the past. And I will probably like the Spartan suit too if I ever use it? Suits abound on the market-place. All of them have helmets, chest protectors, etc.

But, what about the facts in the article? To me this respect bit was a dodge. Because the article dismantles some of their religious tenets of the SPEAR. Not completely, but it does a lot. It would be great to discuss this.

AND then, I was surrounded by well...zealots....
part 2 coming soon...

Hock
You know the article
http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/startle-reflex/startle-reflex.htm




« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 12:34:27 PM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2011, 08:47:12 PM »

I responded with:

“Howdy Ryan. That is an article, highly read, by lots of smart people with PHDs by the way, and has nothing to do with Blauer persay nor is his name even mentioned, but everything to do with everyone who uses a startle-flinch as a major form of a basis for fighting. That and Hicks Law - another throw-down term that has been studied to death and discounted. The startle-flinch and Hick's Law are used as sales pitches by a LOT of martial people. But, not every fight starts with a flinch-startle and the startle only lasts so long. A second. Or two. As you can see there are over 30 startle-flinches, not just the …well you mentioned it- the infamous SPEAR (which is another sales pitch) and first discovered to be a response to AUDIBLE stimuli (the 80 year-old research study). But you see, hands may go up, they may not. You might clutch your throat!  Some people even punch out! Some pass out! You read the article. "

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2011, 09:23:57 PM »

So now we are left with the long R.E.S.P.E.C.T. ass-chewing from this stranger named Ryan. Now I don’t know who this guy Ryan is. He’s probably a nice guy. Most Blauer people are very nice people. There is actually a "recognizable type." Clean-cut. Smart. Young. And many seem have a tragic flaw, this need to "over-worship" something or someone. Think about it. You know the type? And some like Blauer, have very, very little experience in martial arts. Like this new Cross Fit Generation. (A GREAT business move by Tony in this sagging economy. Brilliant)

I respect soldiers, cops and doctors. I do not respect martial arts group leaders - senseis, grandmasters, guros, Bocha-Mochas, and "Coach Blauers." This is a lesson I've learned the hard way through life in the martial arts since the 1970s. People need to have to have real accomplishments to get my respect. But respect for Blauer has a few more potholes...

…how do I go about saying and how do I tell Ryan, that I know about Blauer since he was in College in southern California from JKD guys back then. So many short stories about Blauer.

 - I know that he made my friend in New Jersey buy him expensive cowboy boots on a
   seminar weekend.

 - I think of SWAT team guys laughing when Blauer calls THEM to teach THEM how to
   raid rooms.

 -That at Blackwater, when asked why he was no longer there, a head instructor said,
  and I quote, “they could not build a doorway big enough for his head to walk
  through.”
End of quote.

 -He was training a team of guys once and suddenly wanted them to "fix up his teeth"
  at the dentist. Their dime of course. He kept asking for more and more odd stuff and
  the leader fired him.  (yeah, FIX his teeth)

 -In the 80s and 90s lots of people talked about his insistent and inane patents and  
  threats to sue, early on on trying to control little catch-phrases and sue people.    

 -Trying to control police training through law suit threats.

 - When my friend in the British SAS said, "Tony has some fun drills but he is a dry land
   swimmer."

 -The cops that thought he was some sort of Canadian Mountie years ago

 -I think of the Canadian cop I know that got too close to Tony and became a major  
  assistant. Tony would send him out to run the suit courses and Tony keep all the
  money. I remember one time he got into trouble for missing work on one of these
  unpaid trips.

 -He has lost his top 20 instructors in the last 20 years because he runs them off, then
  complains about them leaving.

 -Stop me. I could go on.

   These and more small short stories flashed through my mind. Through the years, through it all, three words appear to be Mr. Integrity's hallmark "take advantage of." Who has actually stayed with him for any length of time? Why not?

   Since the 90s he has left a long string string of very nice, smart people totally screwed, pissed and hurt. Its odd because when some of them leave? Its like a divorce or something. Weird. Some just quit. But to me? the guy is a box of rocks.

   And as a very important aside, I don’t agree with some, not all, of his foundational aspects of his doctrine, about Hicks law, The Startle Reflex, heart rates and a few other 1990 staples to sell his program. I think he is stuck in that old rut and he can't get out. Tied to his old sales pitch. Then when people ask a serious and challenging question, Blauer's answer is

                                  "...that is not in the Blauer spirit."

The Blauer spirit? WHAT? What kind of con man reply is that? And people actually fall for that? I mean, who in their right mind falls for that crap?

   And, on a completely personal and thoroughly inappropriate note, you know, I see Tony in these film clips and he stands around pontificating on and on and on and on about just one simple move. On and on. Cracks a canned joke. Jeez. I can’t bare it. Like 20 minutes pass. Do the move! And now do the next one! Then these little snide remarks making "karate" a scarecrow. People chuckle in all the right places like robots. Blauer is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. (Not to worry there Ryan, I will NEVER go to a Tony Blauer seminar.) People should now disregard my personal opinions like this. You may love the guy. You can decide that for yourself.

   I am just giving you an example of how "old I am," how long I've been around and what I know about Blauer through the years and WHY Prince Tony will never get any respect from me. I don’t like his pacing, his message, his doctrine, his arrogance and the way he has treated my friends and contacts in the past. R-E-S-P--E-CT? That’ ll be a nope, Ryan. That is my opinion, and I am not alone. But that is why there are horse races, huh?
 
So, containing ALL OF THE ABOVE, I say rather impulsively and quickly…  

.....................

   “Ryan you know, I am almost 60 years old. And Blauer is just a kid to me with a sales pitch and a lot of wind. I remember when he started. He wanted to be the Canadian Paul Vunak.  From the first time I saw him on film (in the 80s I think) my BS meter went up. I would respect Blauer if he would simple say, “you know, sometimes your arms go up in a fight and here’s some tricks if they do.” Or, “best get your arms up!” Very simple. Yes, sometimes your arms do go up. Okay, lets start here! But see, that is not the sales pitch. Don’t blow NLP smoke up my ass for 6 hours waving dead, junk science like Hicks law and the Startle reflex. I would also respect him a bit if he didn’t try to squeeze the SPEAR arm into EVERYTHING.
   Ryan. Folks. The SPEAR cannot solve everything all the time, every time. Even half the time for that matter. You MUST be free to respond to a problem.  Not being free is dangerous. But it is the sales pitch.  I cannot respect someone who’s used junk science, NLP and sales pitches to grease his pockets, at the dangerous expense of…well…you. The “Socratic” Tony Blauer.”

...................................

And then...here came the Blauer fans. As you know, they are obvious zealots. Their young minds of mush think they have found the promised land.

Next part coming soon.
(meanwhile, where is the tactical discussion about the article?)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 11:32:37 AM by Hock »
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sarguy

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 12:24:37 AM »

I thought about jumping in there, but I figured anyone willing to listen to reason would click your link. Everyone else, well, they probably can't handle the idea of digesting a dissenting opinion.

edit:
Yup...Jesse Murietta's comment has been removed already. Nothing like an open forum with which to experience the unfettered flow of ideas...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 12:27:41 AM by sarguy »
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Hock

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 05:54:04 AM »

Jessie too?
Don't jump in there. Its useless. Some Blauer followers have already emailed me and said "there is no way you will control that conversation, there."  There in Blauer Land.

They have already taken some of my comments down. And they are such brief Facebook comments too. If you are not the party line? No choice. Remember this is Blauer-World, that special place where Prince Tony lives and rules.

By the way, in the interest of fairness, I am creating a "Tony Blauer People who Dislike and/or Hate Hock thread, and hopefully they will steer their remarks in that one place for all to read. I think it would make some interesting reading.

Hock
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 09:19:57 AM by Hock »
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JimH

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 07:00:55 AM »

Blauer became Blauer the big name with his SPEAR due to the fact that his family had/has a big Police and Emergency service clothing and equipment company.
When departments would get a cotract for clothing and equipment part of the contract was that they also have Tony  come and give  a seminar on his Tactical Response/THE SPEAR.
His name became associated with Police departments and the story grew from there.
If it were not for the Family Business who knows if we would even know ,or have heard of, Tony Blauer.

The Blauer PDR system is way for students/coaches under Blauer to be able to use his name and teach some of his sytem,
So Blauers Coaches are looking at the money end.
They also sign and agree to basically support and defend the Blauer system with their return to the old traditional oath ,of loyalty,honor,respect and all that which means to show they are loyal followers they will defend Coach Blaure and his Training methodology.

Like those who taught under Wagner or Aizik and made a living from teaching after a two-three day weekend.To allow the attack of the Leader of the pack is to cut your throat  and  lose your income  based on teaching their materials.
So defend till the end.

http://www.blauer.com/

« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 07:13:14 AM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 08:28:27 AM »

So, within hours, the Blauerettes piled on in record time. As I now know I was in Blaur Land now, not a Mike Osborne's page. Or, what? These pages were all interconnected? Whatever.

I was declared a mean old man. Cranky. Over the hill. Angry.  Bitter. Of course, Ignorant. Jealous. The standard laundry list. I was said to be unimpressive as an instructor. And you know? All that is just fine with me. In many ways they are right, especially on a bad day? I am way worse. So, you can keep all that shit coming, bubbas. I actually collect them. Its hard to hurt my feelings, I've been shot at. They especially loved to hate the 60 year old story.  I think maybe because Prince Tony is their wise, old experienced, sage coach? And of course, I am uneducated, because - if Hock only, really knew some PDF instructors (been knowing them for decades, Opie) I would finally realize the genius that is Blauer - the man who had changed the world of combatives in the last thirty years.

Then Prince Tony himself got on this page, wanting to know what got my panties in a twitter, some more derogatory remarks and called me immature and mentioned that his seasoned, wise, aged self is only nine younger than me and ordered me to leave his instructors alone and to stay off his Facebook pages.

HIS page? I knew I was in Blauer Land, but was in BLAUER-BLAUER LAND? HIS page?  I probably should have said, “Damn! Blauer World. I need outta here! Whew! I got there COMPLETELY by accident. I did not want to land inside Blauer world!” And If I were Tony Blauer, I would not want some old heretic like me in there either.

BUT. Now at this very point? Honestly - this started to get a little fun. I was called a bunch of names, ridiculed and got poor Prince Tony upset. All in one day. I'm in it! I made two responses and they were immediately removed. This way the Prince could look like a king who called me names and ran me off. Plus, the message in them was REALLY not in the Blauer Spirit. Oops, I mean the Coach Blauer spirit.

Hock
(meanwhile, sill no debate or discussion on the Startle/Flinch which in the ENTIRE point)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 11:31:32 AM by Hock »
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noload

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 10:02:16 AM »

I think Steven Hawking is a wee bit smarter and more respected than Mr. Blauer, but his theories on black holes were shot down by Prof. Leonard Susskind who dared question his theories. Anyway pretty much any physicist worth his salt knew he was wrong anyway. But Hawking conceded he was wrong and moved on to his next theory, which has not been accepted by many physicists, so he may be wrong again.

So if really smart people, who are famous, write best sellers, with huge egos, and have their reputations riding on what they say, can change their minds and admit when they're wrong why can't people in the self defense world do the same?
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 10:03:46 AM »

Saw this pop up on my Facebook page and then suddenly disappear. I did catch some of the original discussion but that's also gone. What's interesting is the lack of even entertaining an opposing view point to verify that what you believe is correct. This fellow, for me, sums up the wrong way to think about anything much less martial arts. For something that's supposed to be practical  (self defense) I'm always amazed at how much dogma people will grab on to.

Quote
Why Startle-Flinch?   Video: http://youtu.be/nLq-e2aqIO0   The video entitled ‘Why the startle-flinch” is my favorite Coach Blauer video for a few reasons.

However, before anyone reads this I have 3 rules for you and if you cannot abide by these, this post isn’t for you. First, if you are going to argue about what the human body does naturally during an ambush and think that you can override it, go read something else. Second, if you are going to argue about physiology, science and research, this isn’t for you. Thirdly, and most important. If you are going to use someone’s lifelong dedication to learning, experimenting and teaching only to call that work and research your own and not reference the person like a true professional; shame on you.  These are very simple rules. As I share some of my reasonings about why this video is awesome, you will understand why these rules are important to me.   The first reason why this video is awesome is because for me, I like things that are very simple, very effective, and have more bang for the buck.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tony-Blauer-the-SPEAR-System/230629434837

So what Mike Osbourne should have said is: if you disagree with anything Tony teaches then don't comment or read this article.  

I was there when one of the British S0-19 guys told us (Hock and I) that when he questioned a technique that Blauer showed them at a seminar, Tony got all defensive and said to this guy that he was spoiling the seminar for the other guys by questioning the technique- can you imagine? For nine consecutive years I have assisted Hock teaching Police Judo to the Met Police and they repeatedly ask questions about particular techniques and how they would actually work on the street and we have always answered they questions, querries and reservations about using particular tactics. Another operator there said Blauer approached him and took offence that one of the officers there was wearing a Geoff Thompson T-Shirt- LOL!

Joe
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 10:05:41 AM by Joe Hubbard »
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wisdom

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 10:28:44 AM »

 I think the sad thing about this is I may have just for fun or out of curiosity checked out or purchased Blauer's stuff down the road (I think years ago a buddy of mind owned some of his tapes.) But now that I've been exposed to the fact that the Blauer camp has some zealots I'll spend that loot elsewhere, because in the MA world I'm just tired of closed minded zealots.

Worse yet you know Hock just wouldn't give shit if I did check it out because he wants his people to see whats out there. 
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Hock

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Re: Tony Blauer and "Why Startle-Flinch-Fingers in Ears?"
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 10:44:18 AM »

"Worse yet you know Hock just wouldn't give shit if I did check it out because he wants his people to see whats out there." - Cliff

Absolutely, check it out. Check it all it. Only the insecure hide. Everyone should go get Blauer DVDs and watch them.


"...can't people in the self defense world do the same?"

No.

But listen, Blauer isn't like wrong-wrong. He is not all wrong. Not at all. In fact he does things that I and many others do and have done. He has such little martial experience in the martial arts world, he might actually believe he invented these things! Because he's just never seen them before. Who knows?

You probably put your arms up in a fight? Sure. Here are some things to do with your arms are up. Fine. Everybody shows all that stuff. Blauer is mostly harmless. And he gets people off the couch and excited to work out.

Some of his core doctrine foundation, the "science" is outdated that he uses it to sales pitch people.  That is the shame of it. All this old babble about "heart rates over 145," the mandatory flinch," "Hicks," etc. Misinformed, misdirection junk science as a sales pitch. Problem is that ignorant and/or half-educated people start buying into it and regurgitating all this.  

Soon when people are practicing and building their muscle memory in the Blauer world? Sfter awhile all the beginning bad doctrine become a moot issue. Chicken and/or the egg. Because, they begin to get muscle memory to counter a sudden attack and THAT starts to solve the problem, anyway. Remember the Army tests in my article about the Karate and Judo guys often dropped into their system's fighting stances when startled, while the untrained startled in a variety of ways.

  - The training builds the possibility of a good reflex-flinch to a threat.
  - Blauer wants you to think the flinch builds the good response to a threat, and
    then you ride that flinch out.


Its actually ass-backwards. Or, even possibly both ways. But not just Blauer's only way.

After they get this muscle memory, that is when they become like any other dime-a-dozen reality course out there. Even like their cursed karate. All doing about the same things with some side tricks. Hey, I like all the Blauer guys I've met, and they are better done some work with him. Its just  - I think many need some education, tweeking and a dose of free thought.

Not realizing they have trained their muscle memory in a traditional manner they continue to spout these outdated concepts when they teach. I tell you the "fighting public" is getting more educated (not like these new, cross-fit kids though, who know nothing about fighting and are also addicted "science-talk" about things like oxygen-to-muscle ratios, etc) and if these instructors keep name-dropping dead issues like "over 145 heart beats a minute makes you dumb" soon people-in-the-know are going to start shunning him. But, if you are ignorant it all sounds so cool.

Blauers move to connect to these kids doing Cross-Fit is brilliant. They love to work out. They are young and ignorant about fighting, and they are just open, suckers for all kind of "Body-techno" garble that Blauer preaches. Brilliant.

But the major complaint I've heard for decades is that Tony force feeds the SPEAR into way too many areas that other moves would be smarter. A tragic flaw and a sales pitch that leads to dangerous mistakes. Just one example, an ex-SPEAR guy told me last year that he left because he couldn't get a lot of people of different shapes and sizes, and women to use that bent arm well, and that there were smarter moves for them to do instead. This is what I call "Mixed Persons" idea, that not everything works for all kinds of people. Blauer will sell you the Spear for a dollar, but the idea of the Spear is worth about 30 cents. Save some money for other responses.

Back on point - generally speaking, Blauer's material is not all bad. If Tony teaches someone to palm strike a face, or to kick someone in the balls? How can that be "bad or wrong?" He can just be a little ass-backwards at times in his doctrine, and he costs way too much money and quite a number of  people have problems dealing with his personality. In the end, after the SPEAR and flinch brainwashing, Blauer is on par with, or perhaps below par with, other regular self defense courses.

If you take away the little "SPEAR-schtick?" Take away his little junk science sales pitches? He is actually quite mediocre - like the rest of us.

In the end they are still doing immediate action drills and responses that bolster you against ambushes.  Ass backwards or not. Same-same in the end. Ironic isn't it?

Hock
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 11:09:05 AM by Hock »
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