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Author Topic: Learning Good Things from Bad People  (Read 4190 times)

Hock

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Learning Good Things from Bad People
« on: June 18, 2005, 09:33:33 AM »

Learning Good Things from Bad People
Ethics in Training
by Hock

Chuck Burnett and I were dissecting a great discussion point in private lately, that is certainly worthy of opening up for examination. Do we, should we learn things from bad people. How much? How deep?

On paper and at first blush, it is easy to simply say of course! yes! But, in reality, the situation goes deeper and becomes grey, confusing, and a moral and philosophical question. Is there a line to be drawn? Do the skills erase the background? How much will you accept? How much will you turn your head? Do you not care at all? These answers say as much about you as they do about the questionable people.


Do you take karate classes in your neighborhood karate class
from a convicted child molester because, well, he
is such a good karate teacher and he is so good at the katas?
[/i]

Oh, that is quite clear cut, probably BUT! Some answers are not so...

Would you study from an abusive, nuerotic instructor who mistreats people.

Would you take shooting courses from a convict, who kind of hides his conviction?

Would you attend seminars of someone who is a cocaine addict?

Would you take classes from known drug dealers?

Would you attend seminars of someone who you know that half of his credentials are completeley fabricated? HALF! That means half are good!

Would you attend classes and seminars from someone who fabricated his military background? Even pretending to get lots of medals.

Do the skills erase the background? How much will you accept? How much will you turn your head? Where is your line?

Hock

(ps-I am going to list some of my own personal experiences and see what people think, if anything, about them)

 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2005, 08:41:06 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2005, 12:13:05 PM »

Bill Gates and Superman Gee Whiz Rambo
A Look at Drawing the Ethical line
by Hock


We all know who Bill Gates is…

Lets just say that Gee Whiz Rambo is a martial artist who claims to have been all over the planet, every time a firecracker has gone off in the last 60 years, secretly on the behest of the United Nations or contracted to "help" the US Marines, Army, CIA. His first claim to fame is to have been a foreign, WW II special forces soldier, yet he is not of that country and it is almost impossible for an outsider to join this force (his high school yearbook surfaced and proved he was a junior in high school when he clams to have been fighting the Japanese).

He has been a tortured prisoner of war, POW rescuer (coincidentally those rescue stories started right after the Chuck Norris movies in the 1980s.) and so, so much more. Various military vet organizations have investigated him and discredited him. They claim he is only an expert in supplanting himself into already written, military history. Since he fell under this scrutiny of POW and military organizations he has become a shrinking violet and does less and less teaching. He has claimed to be an Olympic medal winning boxer, NUMEROUS PHDs and college degrees. He pretty much telles different tales to different people.

Faking college degrees really angers true college grads. This type of military fraud is found to be inexcusable and incorrigiable in the eyes of military vets. I am one of those in that opinion. His has lived his life on the honor of real heroes, dead and alive and taken credit for it. It is just too close to home for many of us to tolerate.

Now comes the catch. The snafu.  He is a great martial artist. But I personally decided there is nothing he could teach me, that I couldn’t get from somewhere and somebody else.

Now and finally my story begins.
I am a large group dinner after a seminar. The discussion of Bill gates erupts with some computer guys. One says…

“Bill Gates is the devil. Microsoft is the devil. He sucks the life out of people and their computers….” And this tirade, along with a red face, went on and on. “I will never, EVER buy anything Microsoft again in my life!” His computer friends nodded their heads.

Wow! Have another drink, man. 

Then the conversation wandered around to the news that Mr. Whiz was having a seminar a state away and many of this group was going. They made the mistake of asking me my opinion. I told them of Whiz’s investigated background. Calmly, fairly professionally. Then I finished with news that I would never bother to see him anywhere.

The computer guys had returned to their normal hippy-dippy states. They looked sad. “Why can’t we get along man?” the Gates-hater said. “I hate politics. I mean, if the man has something to teach, that is all I am interested in.”

I looked at him and opened one of palms. I said, “Gee Whiz Rambo.” I opened the other palm and said, “Bill Gates.” And moved each hand like a scale. “Same-same, huh?”

It becomes clear that your background, and then the sophistication of your thought process should see the big picture. Hippy-man hated Gates, but couldn’t see how others might despise a fraud like Whiz that prospered on the death and captivity of real heroes. But, I was not moved by the Gates speech. He was not moved by mine. Are we both wrong, or both right? Neither?

Is Gates worse, or Whiz?  He drew his line. I drew mine. Is it really about your personal involvment in the over-all issue that makes you care. I think so.

Where are the lines?

Hock
« Last Edit: June 18, 2005, 12:30:28 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Planetkillr

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2005, 01:20:24 PM »

I have actually had to cross this road; so to speak. I was associated ( He was a assocaite instructor at a Dojo I was training at) with someone who I found out, over time, was a convicted felon. Being a police officer I had to decide how I was going to deal with this. Well, I decided to stick with this guy. My reason for doing so was based on what our relationship, up to that point, was like. I had never seen or even suspected him to be a person of low morals, so I figured I'd stick with the guy. He explained his situation and several of us, all cops, checked into his story. It all seemed to be exactly what he said it was.

Soon after his past was discovered, his wife served him with a restraining order & divorce papers with absolutly no warning. We felt bad for him and rallied around him in his time of need. The Owner/ Head Instructor at the Dojo, allowed him to move in with him & his family until he could find someplace to live. Then, his soon to be ex-wife, called california and found out that he had a outstanding probation warrant. He was taken to jail and awaited his transfer/extradition back to California to clear up this matter. We, all the cops, wrote letter to his parole officer and even made several calls to discuss how this matter could be resolved. The Probation officer was not very happy with us for trying to help the guy, but we continued to try & help our friend. He stayed in jail for over 20 days awaiting his extradition and was finally released when california had'nt made any attempts to pick him up. Once released, he decided to go out to california (we are in Georgia) and clear all this up. Once in California he was put in jail for a few days to await a pobation hearing. Through some of our Martial arts connections, we made contact with a assistant D.A. in the area and discovered that the probation officer had removed al of our letters from his file & did'nt notify the probation office supervisor of any attempts to clear his name. His probation was eventually transfered to Georgia, with our help, and the probation officer was fired; there was suppossedly several issues beyond ours that got her fired.

He stayed in California, with some of our associates there, and trained for a few weeks. When he came back, he told us how thankful he was that we stood beside him when it seemed no one would. The owner/head instructor even gave him a full time job at the dojo until he could find work. Over the next few weeks, he became more & more distant with everyone; except the owners wife. I noticed this and durning a private conversation I asked about what was going on with him and was told to mind my own business and a heated discussion erupted; but no one knew that we had a disagreement- or so I thought. I was a assistant instructor also & soon found myself being a "outsider" at the dojo. So, I just left with a word; I just quit coming around at all. I was not being paid for my services, so I knew I could just leave. but Soon, I was'nt going to air my problems with anyone, I was just going to go away. The owner never called nor did my ex-con friend. About six weeks after my disappearance act, I was called to the Dojo by the owner. He wanted to know why I left. I told him most of my reasons but kept several issues to myself. The owner then told me that the ex-con had been undermining him with the parents & students of the Dojo. Which was something I addressed with the ex-con in our heated debate. The owner told me how the ex-con had told him & many others about our heated debate, but with most of the issues left out and few new (unknown to me) issues that we had suppossedly discussed. That's when I decided to ask the owner about the ex-con having a visable attraction to his wife. To my surprise he admitted he had noticed it & that a situation had occurred durning a class where the ex-con challenged the owner to "Spar" while in anger and in front of his wife. The sparring match did'nt go well for the ex-con. The ex-con appologized to the owner, that if he appearing to be challenging him; because according to him, he was'nt. Since that night, the owners wife had asked for a divorce and decided to go to see some family to decide if this was really what she wanted.

I returned to helping out at the dojo on my off time again. Durning that time I noticed the ex-con using the yahoo messenger on his computer alot and being very protective over anyone getting near his computer. He and I were not really speaking still. He privately apologized to me for what had occurred before, but got all quiet when I asked him about lying to the owner/parents/students about our conversation.
I answered the phone one day & found the ex-con had already answered it. I hung up, but heard him whispering into the phone. He then came out & asked if I minded catching any customers or phone calls for awhile he had to go get something at the store. As soon as he left, I got onto his messenger and set it to store all his IM conversations. I figured he'd not think to check it everyday & in a few days I'd see what he was up to.

I went of town that weekend and planned to check up on what he was up to when I got back. When we returned home I found 10+ messages on my phone. The messages all told me to call them and that "Something" had happened at the dojo. Well, after weeding thru all the stories I heard I found the owner at the dojo; it was sunday & the dojo was closed. Well...his wife had run off with the ex-con. There was a big blow up about it all and the owner tracked her to a hotel in atlanta (Some 200+ miles away) thru his credit card; they had actually been dumb enough to use the Dojo's credit card to get a hotel...and from there it was all down hill.

What did I learn from all this?? Well...I guess I should have gone with my 1st reaction to the situation, which was to stop associating with the ex-con right away. Since then, I've faced another situation that involved a ex-con and my martial arts quest. The 2nd time I cut my loses and soon found out that they ex-con ended up stealing money from several folks.

I guess the answer to the main question, " should we learn things from bad people.". For me, the answer is NO.

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Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2005, 02:36:27 PM »

Great story...
What if we change a few of the facts though,
What if this ex-con is just doing SEMINARS, not weekly classes?

Scenario 1
What if it is a Christian seminar and lies and hides his past?

Scenario 2
What if he advertises to all "Learn from my time in the pen!"

Scenario 3
What if he draws from every type of crowd, and never mentions it?

Hock

« Last Edit: June 18, 2005, 08:43:07 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2005, 07:44:58 PM »

...and the subject of Good Things from Bad People, Marchinko and G. Gordon Liddy, both were mentioned when Chuck and I were thinking about it.

They are proud of their survival and it is on the resume.

I think they get by because:
1) they have done pretty amazing things and
2) their crimes are really unique.
3) they are very up front and open about it.

Hock

Milldog1776

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2005, 07:57:46 AM »

Quote
Would you attend seminars of someone who is a cocaine addict?
Would you study from an abusive, nuerotic instructor who mistreats people.

Hock, are you exposing someone's soft, white underbelly?

I think I agree with Hock on this. If the fellow is up front and honest about being in trouble...maybe it's o.k. What if the guy is an ex drug user/dealer...and martial arts have helped him "rehabilitate" and stay clean. I think that might be a good seminar to attend.
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misshinryu

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2005, 10:11:11 AM »

Hock, you must be talking about the good Dr. (I bet). If you are, he is very poplular in some Isshinryu circles except for the crowed I hang with. He has been caught in lies about his training in this as well. He is well respected in Bando.
Would I intentionally learn from a person who has a current history of perpetuating falsehood. No! In fact, I left an orgainization in which the founder was doing this and this same group adores the Dr.
What about if they had a bad past? People do make stupid decision in their lives especially the young and time is needed to see if they are really repentant of their past.
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Mike Steele
Mercy Triumphs Over Judgement

Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2005, 10:47:40 AM »

September 31, 32, 2007 Seminar

"RAP EX-CONS "Ball-Buster" and "Snake-Mouth" teach a seminar on prison fighting.
Learn what these cons are doing to shiv and ambush fellow inmates. Combined, these two homies have 36 years experience in the pen. Learn the walk, talk, razz and jazz of the killer-man."

Who would, or wouldn't go to this seminar?

PEACE!
Hock

misshinryu

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 06:48:27 AM »

I would go if this being done with some type of  respected LE seal of approval, and if I worked in the prison system.
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Mike Steele
Mercy Triumphs Over Judgement

Trembula

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 08:08:47 AM »

Sometimes "learning good things from bad people" is a necessary evil - i.e. former cat burglars teaching military units how to covertly break into buildings or IT folks learning from hackers.

Sometimes someone has a checkered past (examples... the aforementioned Dick Marchincko and G. Liddy or Ollie North) but is still an upstanding citizen and their past problems are just that - past problems.

Sometimes someone continues to perpetrate a fraudulant resume, criminal history, conceal a drug history, etc. (like two of the instructors discussed on this and/or similar thread). These are the folks I would not want to associate with. Were the honest about their past, admitted to their problems, and showed evidence of reforming, then things might be different.

On a separate note, some personal conflicts that have peaked over the last few days got me thinking about something that Ross Perot says in his book My Life and Principles for Success:

CHAPTER NINE
Business Partners

Depending on your business, you may decide to enter into a partnership that will require your continued association with certain individuals over a period of time.

- During the negociations, if you learn anything about an individual that causes you to question his or her ethics, character, or business judgement, walk away from the deal.
- If you intuitively believe that the person will not be a good business associate, walk away from the deal no matter how attractive the venture might be.
         Never ignore your instincts regarding other people.
            Following your instincts will keep you out of more trouble than it will get you into.
            Ignore your instincts and a few months later, events will define the reason for the   
              intuitive feelings you had earlier.
- During negociations to enter into a business venture, if your future partners appear to be dishonest, overreaching, overbearing, unprofessional, arrogant, rude, or caught up in a messy personal life:
         Do not enter into the venture.
         Do not waste time negociating business relationships with people of this type. Either you 
         will not execute the contract, or you will regret it if you do.

----

I see training with someone (as student or instructor) regardless of whether cash payment is exchanged being a business relationship just like being a tennant or leasing equipment.

Something could also be said about these sorts of people in one's personal life and just how far the bonds of friendship should go when dealing with people you grow to despise.

Dan
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Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2005, 08:09:51 AM »

Well, it asks a interesting question because people who draw the line at ex-cons training people, might attend this...

Does this mean the subject/person is reviewed on a case-by-case basis?

Hock

Hock

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2005, 08:23:56 AM »

Depending on your business, you may decide to enter into a partnership that will require your continued association with certain individuals over a period of time.
- During the negociations, if you learn anything about an individual that causes you to question his or her ethics, character, or business judgement, walk away from the deal.


Would Blackwater, Gunsite or Frontsite, become associated with, or sponser a person who concealed a criminal or falsified record, false background? Can they afford to do such a thing? Associate with a 20-year, drug addict? What does that do to their reputation?

I know a guy who has been in and out of jail, a 20 year, drug addict, graduate of at least 4 rehab centers and still a mess, screwed many of my friends out of thousands of dollars, abused their credit cards, completely exagerated teaching a special forces unit. And now teaches things that maybe 15 other people could teach smarter and better. Would Blackwater hire this guy to teach cause he is a little..."salty?"

At some point, with the right intell you make an educated guess, you decide there is little chance of a personality change, especially when their personality is driven by the psychological weaknesses involved with decades of drug abuse.

This doesn't mean you don't like the guy, or wish him the best. Religious people should indeed pray for them. There is good in them too. But business-wise, sometimes, enough is enough.

If Blackwater shouldn't or can't associate with them?
Can you?

Hock

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:30:34 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Trembula

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2005, 08:37:00 AM »

Well, for that individual I understand that his drug problem helped end his major claim to fame, i.e. teaching that particular unit. Back in the mid-80s he was making a grand a day with those contracts and blew it all...

Considering the wealth of talent out there there is no reason to take a chance on a liability like that. And if a reputable business does, they hopefully do so with the full knowledge of the risks and issues involved.

Dan
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JimH

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2005, 02:25:54 PM »

The thing is many people who still pay for instruction by the individual hinted at,do not know his problem.

They see his ads,they see his claims and they see the draw to be certified in a weekend,that becomes less than a weekend as the training starts late and ends early,if he remembers you are there.
(if he forgets about you,or short changes your training time,you still get certified)

As far as his training of the ***** ,sorry,Spec Ops unit, his problems are not the cause of his end of contract,his training was going no where,if training does not evolve for these men then they find a new trainer.
(plus running the letter from the **** Team Leader was not the best move)

Some of the men mentioned,(Liddy,Marcinko,North),many people, including myself, believe they were doing what they belive was important to the CINC,to the Nation,to their Unit and their men,so we/I am willing to over look a charge when I and they believed in the outcome.
The Buck stops somewhere down from the top and these men said OK let it stop with me,STAND UP, die hard, patriots.
                     ................................................................
I attended a Martial Arts Hall of Fame function and the day time events ran several small free clinics, 2 clinics were  dedicated to Learning how to fight in prison,not really for the guards but against the guards and others who may mean to do you harm,I was surprised by what was allowed to be taught)
                          .........................................................
Again the problem is that unless the crime and person were note worthy we do not know,investigate or inquire as to the background of the instructor and if they are in the mags we take that as an endorsemnet of sorts and accept the credibility.

I believe this topic is hard  to give a straight forward answer to as everyone and anyone can have something to offer as long as you know what you are trying to learn and what to expect on going in.
(as said, a class by a car thief would be beneficial if we wanted to prevent car theft)
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jmech

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Re: Learning Good Things from Bad People
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2005, 09:17:33 PM »

I think that with guys like marcinko and liddy, how they lived the rest of their lives greatly outweighs the crimes they committed.  The 20 yr drug addict, short change artists actions are more of a reflection on how they live their entire lives.  Guys like Marcinko I would train with in a heart beat, but not those other guys.  There are so many other trainers out there teaching material just as good (if not better) who just don't have the money to take out full page ads in Black Belt magazine every month.  There are probably hundreds of "unknown" instructors out there that you could get better instruction from, just without the Big-Name recognition.

And speaking of that, I'd like to give Hock a Huge Atta-Boy for giving guys like McCann and Halleck an opportunity and venue to share their information.  These are examples of guys who aren't featured in BB mag every month but have great material to share. I think its great that someone like Hock, who can get into BB anytime he wants (but seems to enjoy training the rest of us so much that he doesnt get in EVERY month...) is willing to help the "up and comers" in getting their programs and material going.  Thanks Hock!

Joe Mech
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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