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[Hock]

The moderator Mike Belzer is back in Los Angeles and SUPER-busy with his real estate deals. Plus I have asked him to write a book on his international travels.

The stick business is not a prosperous one unless you are an avid Filipino student or in the police business. As I get around I still believe in the interest in Filipino martial arts wans. If you are inside it looking out, working with a small group of fellow-avids I don't think you can see it. But then, why have you always been in a small group.

The youth demographic, (17 to 27) the new-student base so needed in the martial arts business is now hypnotozed by the NHB and UFC style training. I can easily understand why and I myself was hooked enough to try that new thing called "Shoot Wrestling" or shoot fighting in the 1980s. Thinking about doing Brazilian JujJitsu in your school, or just started in the last three years or so? SORRY! Your're too late! That wave has passed baby!

NHB and UFC have much to offer, but there is a higher concern, the realistic world of knifes, some impact weapons and guns, mixed into these fights. It is a mixed-weapon world.

Where does the stick fit in this? When was the last time you saw two guys dueling with sticks? The study of the stick is really an esoteric practice. I still get a kick out of it and believe I can swing with the best of them. And, I'll show you stick locks until the cows come home, but I don't have much use for them in the SDMS stick course.

the police training business scored big in the 1980s with "sticks."

1) Monadnock      http://www.batons.com/batons.asp
2) ASP                http://www.asp-net.com
3) PPCT              http://www.ppct.com/

I have great, general respect for these organizations who have stood the test of time, regardless of what students say of the actual techniques. This is not an endorsement of what they do. They just need a nod and a little respect for their endurance and presence on the police and security marketplace. They do not just have a strong hold, they have a stanglehold on it.

These courses have become deeply, completely and mindlessly entrenched into the police and security mindset. A mindset ridden with paranoia and status-quo, non-creativity. They still hold the police training baton world in their clutches.

They teach hitting (and no grappling) in a world where hitting gets you sued. Most stats show that the impact weapon is used about 10% of the the time in use of force action, yet account for about 40% of all law suits.

Some of the courses are based on the 55 year-old original Hicks Law concept, even though dozens, perhaps even hundreds of studies have been advanced, altered and improved the information. See: http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm


<<<>>>

I think that stick fighting is more like football with a stick in your hand than any of the elaborate stick dances of the martial arts. I think that when two people stick fight there are hard swings and many football crashes first and foremost.

So, with Belzer so busy, I will ride herd on the stick forum for awhile...

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

Yep, I was always more intrigued by the blade aspects of the FMA until recently when I started playing round with some force on force stuff i.e. stick v knife etc.  The knife man doesn't stand a damn chance.

Always suspected that but it was kind of impractical to carry a stick round with you everywhere you went...now with extendable batons available I'm getting back into the stick big time.

[misshinryu]

I am infatuated with stick fighting. So I am behind???
I always thought that the stick was more practical weapon, and I rather have something like a stick in my hands to beat that shootfighter.http://[tr][/tr][td][/td]

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Just hit a bunch of buttons to see what would happen

[Hock]

I am infatuated with stick fighting. So I am behind???


NOOOO!
I am infatuated with it too.

I think a stick/impact tool would be used more, statistically, against unarmed attackers or mixed weapon attackers.

It is the stick vs.stick, "myth of the duel" that is a statistical improbability...but I am still infatuated with it.

And Ninor you are one more solid vote for why Filipinos like to have the stick in their strong hand when fighting with Espada Y Daga - stick and knife.

Hock

[kamagong]

I must admit, I am infatuated with the stick fighting as well.  I may dabble in other things from time to time, but I always come back to this.  I started in Kung-fu, and my intro to the stick was full contact stick fighting. 

I think part of what makes the MMA and UFC styles so popular is image.  They give this invincibile air off, and carry the same attitude as gangster rappers.  In fact, look at the age range of people going crazy for this stuff, it is the teens and guys in their twentys and early thirties, the same people listening to hard style rap and music.  It is all in the marketing.

All the stick fighting stuff will come back around in popularity once again.  This stuff always comes in cycles, and is just re-packaged differently.  Anyone read about catch-as-catch-can wrestling?  Same stuff as the UFC, just add Thai-kicks and knees.  Hopefully for those of us teaching Archipellago type stuff, it will come around soon and fill our coffers again.  

[Nick Hughes]

I'm waiting till they open up MMA to weapons...(then it will really be like the street fight they claim it is).  At that point when guys with sticks start belting everyone there'll be a resurgence

N

[Adventure]

Well I think I will start a new group; you've all heard of the Dog Brothers. Well, I am going to start a group called the "Puppy-Dog Siblings"

We will wear real hockey helmets, hockey gloves, & any other pads you want. Then we will use padded sticks.(sof-stx, action flex, etc.)  After a few rounds of scrapping we will go watch the big Dogs fight & just think "That's going to leave a mark." 

Hey all, David here.

I'm going to go watch the DB fight tomorrow @ the Gathering of the Pack. I know it is not as real as discussed & I due like "Kill Shot rules" the best, but man it is fun to watch.

I'm up @ a friends house tonight & we will go in the morning, but tonight he wanted to see what it is like to fight like that. WEEELLL, I like the "puppy-dog rules" (see above) with the "Kill Shot rules".

Well I got some good bruises from just using the padded sticks that Hock sells & from sof-stx. I also got to finally put my helmet to use & found that there are some BIG holes in my defense
Funny thing though; I did manage to get some Power Blocks off, when my friend was batting for the bleachers with my head as the target. I don't know where they came from, but they were there.  Thanks for the Training Hock.

talk to you later.

[Hock]

As Joe lewis says...

"Nothing replaces ring time!"

It is only sad for our country that such a thing as a Dog Brothers gathering is so special. It shows how little the other USA Filipino systems train properly. But in order to retain students you cannot destroy their body regurlay. Smart systems and instructors have ways to convey the education abstractly. As I like to say, I don't have to be shot with a bullet to know it hurts,

BUT! As I see with Airsoft and even gas gun training, I'd like people to hurt a bit more and recact properly when they are shot ...God its a tricky business and juggling act.

But age and healing time does have a lot to do with continuing to do it.

Give us a report Adventure!

Hock

[kamagong]

We need a couple of tournaments!!!  Killshot rules or whatever we can do to make it as much like combat as possible and no one goes to intensive care.  I think if there were more tournaments(ugh, I hate that word) then there would be more interest.  When I talk to new students and ask them what they want, they usually get around to asking if we compete in tournaments, or if there are even any stick fighting tournaments around. 

Maybe at the Archipellago camp.  Let the last day end with a tournament, entry fee and all, cheap trophies and all that.  Nothing keeps people sharp like friendly competition. (on a personal note, I hope it is on Sunday, us Sabbath keepers will be knocked out of it  ) 

Just a thought!

[Hock]

Maybe at the Archipellago camp.  Let the last day end with a tournament, entry fee and all, cheap trophies and all that.  Nothing keeps people sharp like friendly competition. (on a personal note, I hope it is on Sunday, us Sabbath keepers will be knocked out of it  ) 

We have some vicious ones in London each year. Sadly, some injuries.

One thing to think about it I have learned, when you do these at the end of the second day, people's bodies are tired. Then they have to step and go 110%. The common blowout has been an ankle injury.

Hock

[Joe Hubbard]

I seem to remember a certain referee who allowed seven elbows to the head before breaking up the round.  Footage coming up soon on future PAC DVDs.

Ciao

Joe

P.S.  Okay- I was the ref!

[Boar Man]

Count me in on the stick.  It is fasinating to me and it is my favorite training tool.

While I agree that stick vs. stick is an unlikely scenerio I do think that SD training against or with some sort of weapon is useful.  And to meet that need the stick of various different lengths is valuable as a training tool.

As an instructor you can spice up your drills by adding different weapons into the mix. for examples I give the following.
1) Using the 12 angles of attack or the clock pattern drill 12, 3, 6, and 9 give the students different items to use as weapons and have them hit with them.  I use to use Falsh lights, walking canes, training Bolos, training knives, PR 24, Staff, Raquett Ball raquet, etc. etc. and have them rotate using the different items.

2) Try using different combinations of the Sinawali drills as a combat response to an attack with these different types of weapons.

3) Or be attacked and defend against these different types of weapons.

Mark

[ansaz12]

I have given up stick fighting a couple of years ago after i went on a Rapid Arnis Seminar by Pet O'melly and after 2 full days could not remember a thing as half of the stick techniques were not functional but were said to be functional but were actually a lot of flashy tournament techniques with no self defence value. But Hocks stuff is simple but yet not to simple with realistic application non of that tappy tappy drills or to drill orientated, non of that spanking with a stick Hocks system gets traight to the point.
 
ansaz

[Kentbob]

     I am a big fan of FMA, and stickfighting.  I enjoy learning all the different techniques, and drills, and trying to put them together in new and different ways.  I like to play with the techniques, and start to make them work for me, or put them in situations to play with them.  It makes it that much more fun and interesting for me, and I tell my buddies to do the same thing when we are training.  See what you can do, play with it.  We just try to keep it realistic to, and not get crazy with any of the techniques.  I would like to see some more stickfighting tournaments, like at the end of a seminar.  I would like to be able to compete, and get that ring time that was talked about.  And lastly, I just enjoy FMA just for the arts sake, just for fun. 


Kent

[raswic]

 I'm all about the stick. Only not the FMA, but the Irish shillelagh. We in the WMA stick fencing community are working on an International Stick-Fighting Expo. All styles from around the world. The hard part is coming up with the rules so no one style is favoured. I believe it is doable. Especially if the rules reflect reality as much as possible. But still keeping safety in mind. I don't mind a hit as I don't have a job to worry about. I do this for a living. But I understand others concerns. Would some of you guys be interested in this?