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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Author Topic: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training  (Read 4036 times)


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The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« on: August 27, 2011, 04:22:56 PM »

At Classes, on DVDs, You Tube Etc We constantly see people training at an unrealistic distance. Way to far away from each other. Knife attacks are really up close and personal. If people are not training for touching distance, they are not training at all. When you see people dancing  around a full meter or more apart, get a length of rope and tie them closer together if you have to ! It ticks me off no end...o.k that's my rant for the weekend... 


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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2011, 05:09:31 PM »

Wow- great post  WW


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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2011, 06:15:57 PM »

One guy I trained with would put a 3 to 5 second time limit on things. If neither guy was making progress he'd get involved, and nobody wanted him involved. The cool part was he would sometimes start us at a large distance and we had to close fast and fight fast as that's how a situation could go down in his world.


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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2011, 02:55:30 AM »

I teach my guy's and girls that on a busy London bus, tube, pub etc, theres no backing away. It's very close confines all the time in the urban environment, lift's, stairwells etc and on the social housing estates narrow corridors and blind spots. A guy was knifed to death 30 meters from my front door in a crowded bookies a month ago. A young boy was trapped in cycle storage shed and stabbed to death last week. Train to match the reality. Thanks for the feedback guys..   


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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 04:33:51 PM »

the reason people try to stay away as far as possible, is they are not comfortable close in. Or afraid to get hurt.

You have to get in close to control and or take the aggressor out.

Dwight McLemore

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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2011, 09:28:42 AM »

    As one who is often accused to teaching dueling, let me echo what Hoch said with a bit of a different look.  That dueling is too me just medium range fighting, a very short period just before the opponent closes from an ambush to the hand-on-hand. You have got to train to that also.  It is just part of the curriculum ....learn it then move on, don't make an "event" of just working with that aspect..... From a historical perspective there were a lot of historical examples of incidents where individuals, squared off and fought one on one with the crowd standing aroung but that was in the 18th and 19th centuries.  There are also examples of ritualized fighting in Mediteranian area . Blood duels to satisfy some stuid Macho concept of honor. Now you don't see that much in today's world and therefore the training priority probably needs to be on the up close aspect and the ground but that does not mean that it is not worth learning the medium range skill, especially when the opponent has a really big knife/machete-know the enemy if you will.  What bothers me more than the dueling/ritual crowd are those that have not adjusted their close quarter or ground fighting skills to accomodate the reality of an armed opponent. I've seen some utube sparing where the opponent's rush in for a take down and get the hell stabbed out of them, with no thought to dealing with the steel.
Now from the Martial Art & Stage combat aspect where an old technique is being demonstrated  the dueling approach might be the priority.  If your teaching peole in the profession of arms one probably should approach it from the aspect that Hoch has in his Knife-Counter Knife book.  I think a lot of people on both sides get this stuff mixed up.   Webby, thanks for bringing this post up. Your right too much on the dueling is seen today.



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Re: The Biggist Fault in Knife Training
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2011, 11:12:16 AM »

The Myth of the Knife Duel

"The "myth of the knife duel" is about limiting yourself and/or over-training knife dueling methods while training for situational, reality knife fighting and only using fencing or sparring as the main model. This is the definition of "the myth of the duel." We live in a mixed weapon world. Such a knife course is therefore unlikely to have "the modern, "Weapon-Matrix" as in mixed weapon options, like gun versus knife for one example. Many criminal and military knife attacks are like football or rugby with a knife with sudden and vicious collisions.

But, if you specialize in a specific era or historical training, and/or understand where the duel truly fits in the real world, (such as Dwight) then you are among the enlightened, educated and pursuing your interests and the interests of your friends and students.

Of course, just as a good knife course covers knife ground fighting, it must also cover a proper proportion of so-called "knife dueling," because knife dueling may, has and does occur inside an overall knife fights in war and crime. We duel/spar a bit at every knife level. We do the Killshot Knife Fighting Module to cover the subject, all the time remembering that if there is space between knife fighters, there are often other wise options than the continuance of the knife duel.

...are all those stabbings and slashings around the world, all Zorro-like, face-off duels? Or, are they sudden, passionate charges (like football players with knives) that involve a sucker punch, with a thrown ashtray at the face. A knife in the back? A chair vs. a knife? A struggle on the ground? Two bad guys cornering one guy. A very small knife vs. a machete? Or worse, unarmed vs. the knife?

The very term "knife duel," in many training systems today does fancify and mislead what is really homicide-like or an ugly, vicious bloodletting. The training for knife fighting, as done by so many martial systems today, is a prissy, unrealistic game of tag with rubber toys, mentally detached to the virtually unspeakable horrors of knife wounds, knife maiming and edged weapon killing."

« Last Edit: September 04, 2011, 01:01:19 PM by Hock »