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Author Topic: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word  (Read 7216 times)

Hock

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Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« on: September 01, 2011, 10:10:40 PM »

"Some of my best friends, friends, acquaintances and strangers through the years like to say that the one main thing they learned from Brazilian ground fighting is the importance of positioning. Many even declare that positioning is thee most important thing in a fight. Thee thing? To have a sudden revelation that positioning is..."

See 1 September entry...
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/09-11/index.htm
(I await the complaints...)

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 03:05:55 AM »

Good arricle on positioning Hock-thoughts from  my end  ( i am not ranked in BJJ)-I think many of your friends who state that positioning is paramount are thinking in terms of rolling on  the mat and how to get the tap-as they roll for hours and hours being careful not to add a self defense attack-i.e-forearm to throat or claw something makes them
feel thats the way to go.........Then they meet a CQC instructor or even a student -get on the mat and wham they see what really can occur.
I agree positioning is a big part but dont forget to strike/cripple before the other guy gets the chance to.- JMHO  WW
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seldomseen

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 09:49:02 AM »

The problem that I've found with the MMA crowd is that since you can't actually sink your eye gouge, or throat pinch, or groin stab, etc., when you're "rolling" with them, they don't feel that the techniques will "work."

Usually within 10 seconds I've attacked all three, while they're still "positioning", looking for a submission.

I agree 100 percent with the article. Positioning would be paramount if you had the "time" to roll around looking for a better angle. In the street, you just don't have that luxury.

Jason
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whitewolf

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 09:50:27 AM »

J-good thoughts- WW
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Canuk

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 09:57:31 AM »

Yep, inching your way to the arm while im hurting you is not the best way to gain position.

I gain position BY hurting the other person
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Keith Miller

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 10:47:33 AM »

Well, I'll put it like this...

I was teaching some Ground n Pound techniques at a CQC seminar one time. I was showing a tie up and downward elbow from the mounted (top saddle) position.

While I was demonstrating the technique, the guy on the bottom pretended to punch me in the groin. He giggled and said, "that's my solution to that." Everyone else laughed until I said.

"OK. Let's do it for real. You punch me in the balls as many times as you want, and I'll do the same with this Elbow to your face. Then we can compare results."

Unfortunately, he did not take me up on the challenge.

Soooooo....I think more important than position is control. I had the control, he did not. In order for him to be effective in his counter attack (or gain control), he needed to "move to a different position." If you do not practice grappling, jiu jitsu, wrestling, etc. You don't know how to do that, and will be subjected to my elbow to your face. I'll take that punch to the balls that you think is the great equalizer...I think it's a good trade.
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seldomseen

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2011, 11:01:04 AM »


  A "punch" to the balls is almost useless when you're on you're back. However, a thumb inserted in your eye, or my knife inserted in your testicle will neutralize the elbow anyday.

Jason
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Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 11:13:36 AM »

It would be hard to say, I walked down the busy street. I made it because of positioning. I positioned myself on the sidewalk instead of the street. I mean, its true and not completely true. Like a riddle.

I knew this would be a tricky conversation and chip away at some foundations some people have so readily accepted.

Position should be a subliminal part of an intent to do something. Like a batter who swings at on outside pitch. His mental concept - "hit the outside pitch." He will automatically shift his legs, arms to make that contact. If he hits a home run, how much can he credit positioning. What about his vision, his body speed, his upper torso strength, etc, etc. Can a coach say that positioning alone is thee most important factor in hitting home runs?

The guy hitting the groin, as I say weekly, the groin is a mysterious place and hitting or kicking it sometimes fails. Especially one strike! Jeez. While that one elbow to the face can be a high precentage strike.

I agree with SeldomSeen's asessment. I would advocate a machine gun blast of savagery (not one little punch on the groin) while the other guy is getting position or control. Or, as quickly as possible, no matter who is doing it.

Studying the stalemates in the UFC are a great lab to see this. What I see alot are fighters thinking about positioning and they freeze because they now know that they will fall into the range of a ground n pounder. You see these little stalemates unfold. That didn't happen that much years ago.

Years ago, brainwashed training would dictate that when fighters hit the floor, their brainwashed brains immediately switched over to mutual wrestling, with token hammerfists here and there in sets of three. I still see it sometimes.

Hock

jasongutierrez

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2011, 02:57:41 PM »

Dusting a few books from my shelf, I recall Bruce Lee talking about this very thing in the Tao of JKD in the chapter on mobility. That your success in a fight is tied to your being able to be in the right place to deliver the blow effectively.

Reading through this book, you can see there is a lot of thought that went into his tactical approach, but it was always part of a bigger picture.

Flipping the pages, I can see that I'll be rereading this one again this weekend.

jg
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Kentbob

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2011, 03:15:13 PM »

Position is but a subset under a heading that I would title "tactics", which ultimately fall under "strategy". 

Wars, battles, gunfights, and fistfights have been fought over position.  A former Ranger friend of mine had a saying, "Terrain dictates."  That statement could easily be "Position dictates."  Position should determine what tactics are being used.  In fact, in my mind, tactics and position are almost interchangeable, but changing position should definitely fall under tactics. 

The fact is in a real street fight things happen so fast that all a person usually has to fall back on is the training, and as Hock has pointed out, if the training emphasizes position over tactics, this is what will generally come out during a fight.  Strategy drives tactics, and tactics should, in my opinion, drive position.  If all a person knows is boxing or kickboxing, then that person must use those tactics to drive their position.  Likewise for someone who is a wrestler/grappler. 

And then, of course, what to do when the other person compromises your position?  If you're in an ambush and your security gets rolled up, how do you respond?  If you're the one ambushed walking down an alley, and your kickboxing position is instantly compromised, what do you do?  One must not rely on position, but must rely on tactics, and ultimately, strategy.  Know what you're going to do in a situation, and have a plan.  If you get rushed as you pass a corner, what will your response be?  Roll with it and try to pull the person into your guard, or achieve the top mount?  Or try to keep your feet, clinch, and give them a few poundings?  Will you break contact or become decisively engaged?  What's your strategy and what tactics will you use?  How will you achieve these tactics if you're in a compromised position? 

These are the questions that I feel are rarely answered by the average classroom instructors, to include the Army Combatives instructors.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2011, 03:49:35 PM »

The Army combatives instructors are overwhelmed by BJJ positioning and BJJ philosophy.

Hock

whitewolf

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2011, 03:52:45 PM »

Keith put out some good info here-in addition I notice that many schools do not touch on the mental aspect of the fight-in the ring or on the street
One has to look ahead if possible and pick out the  approach,detour,retrogade movement, or side step the problem or-think ahead if possible to attack instead of reacting-WW
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Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2011, 07:21:33 AM »

Jessie says...

Jesse Murrieta Awesome blog is all I gotta say!I've been involved in all forms of martial arts since I was a child with wrestling,Judo, u-Jitsu(Japaneses & later Brazilian under an instructor certified by Joe Moreira) being in the mix.I hit the ground & I'm ...on the offense asap using what ever I have at my disposal including the environment, but what my students & I make priority are escapes.I'm 6'5 300lbs & if my mission priority is to gain position then I'm simply setting myself up for failure because I'm a large target on the ground, instead I seek targets to destroy & make my escape to my feet.

Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2011, 07:23:35 AM »

On Facebook Kaal Nath says...

 ‎"What does a properly trained survivor do when he hits the ground? Bash like a madman while the other guy is scrambling for position. In fact, this bashing should begin on the way down, IN THE AIR, before touchdown." Ah, vindication! Ame...n Hock! When I told a friend grappler this about 10 yrs ago substituting "break or tear something" for "bash" his reply was "You'll try!!!" From my humble ltd bkgd I suggest ripping actions on the way down, palms for smashing if/as we hit the ground. Palms are designed for contacting stuff, knuckles not. If we miss it's better to contact whatever 'ground' we're on with the open palm than with the knuckles and bones of the hand, yes?"

I'd day any in the progression, palm, forearm, elbow, hammer fist, punch, shoulder, body slam or ram.
Hock

Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2011, 07:24:18 AM »

Eric L Piper on Facebook says...

"Excellent post Hock, with the usual wisdom and insight you always bring to the table. Much appreciated!"

TLE

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2011, 09:45:12 AM »

The ancient Spartans advised against fighting an enemy to often lest they become too familiar with your tactics. I think that is what happened to BJJ. Also, the time restrictions ( rounds) and judging really hurt BJJ practioners in MMA. Finally,  a lot of "positioning" is pretty much useless if the size differences are too great. As far as eye gouging, groin strikes, biting etc.. I'd rather have top position than bottom. I think the individulas capabilities and the specific situation dictate the importance of position.
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Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2011, 12:26:24 PM »

T writes...
Hi Hock,

"Read your blog on positioning and couldn't agree more. The focus on ground pounding and superior this and that's is so prevalent in that mindset. I have had a lot of very capable MMA guys that come in to see what we do and how we do it. When we take it to the ground and toss a weapon in the mix, generally they still try to apply the chokes, armbars, or submission tactics they focus on for competition...instead of focusing on destruction. We bite, pinch, eye, nose or lip hook, pull things, twist things, dig fingernails into cutical beds, pinch or bite eyelids (if eyes are closed) trap or seize the weapon and severely disrupt the bad guys ability to continue.

Started for me in 9th grade wrestling. Got pinned by a big Italian kid ( read hairy ) Already into Poekoelan by then. Big kid, Alex,  prone on top. Smelly, sweaty, hairy  armpit inches above my nose. Coach is yellin at me to get out of pin. Very casually, i snaked my hand into his armpit. Grabbed some armpit hair...and yanked.

He howled like a mad monkey, jumped up and started dancing on his tiptoes like a ballerina on crack.

Then coach started yellin at me...for gettin outta the pin. 2 things from that. I never want to be that close to a guy in any position....and my wrestling career was very short lived.

I love the fact you have the guts to call it...and the skill and ability to back it.

God Bless, T "

Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2011, 12:30:48 PM »

The Dawg says on Facebook...

"When the Big Kahuna speaks, folks should listen...then hold their breath, count to ten, and just THINK for a moment or two about what's been said. Then, if you absolutely must...go ahead and say your piece. If you didn't take the time to really ponder the question,"What's my mission?", you're really missing the point. Just sayin'."

whitewolf

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2011, 04:48:09 PM »

Dawg-u hit it on the head-the mission the mission-
You are attacked-mission- stay alive ,  overcome, win-using what ever you can to do this.
No rules in the street.
WW
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Hock

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Re: Position is Just a an Eight Letter Word
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2011, 06:41:40 PM »

And what is your mission?
Win the Saturday Night fight at Podunk City Arena?
Or, protect a famous politician?
What?

Hock
 

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