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W. Hock Hochheim's

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  • May 23, 2012, 06:45:57 AM
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Author Topic: Gun Arm Grappling  (Read 461 times)

Hock

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Gun Arm Grappling
« on: October 21, 2011, 08:38:01 PM »

"As we now dwell in the second half, of the first decade of the 21 st century and into the second, we discover we now have a plethora of films on fights, stabbing, crimes and shootings to look at. They are plastered on the news, the you-tube, blue-tube and zoo-tube of the internet. When we watch these shootings, we actually see what our interview-research has already taught us, that a large percentage of gun violence occurs close up, or at very least it frequently starts..."

Read 21 October
http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/10-11/index.htm

Hock

Mr. Barnett

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2011, 04:04:09 AM »

Fantastic article here.  Gun sales are soaring, and people are getting worried, and they are considering purchasing firearms.  I received an email just the other day asking me if buying a gun is the right thing to do.  They wrote a long email detailing in their mind what were the pros and cons of carrying a firearm.  After looking through the whole email, I sat, perplexed at the seeming inconsistencies that were presented, but one thing stuck out the most.  The real question behind the email was not "should I buy a gun?"  The real question was "How do I defend myself and my property efficiently given my age, physical bearing, and experiences?".  When I started writing a response, it dawned on me how much information and training would really be necessary to effectively address the real issues involved in carrying a firearm (as outlined by them, as using a firearm to do the job).  My first reaction was to start writing, but after 2000 or more words on my opinion, I had to stop.  First things first, I sent him to the citizens self defense page on Hocks website.  I read through the whole thing myself, and many of the issues that he had brought up were highlighted and clarified.   I say clarified, because they can only be addressed and resolved by the person who is asking.  Today, this article, Gun Arm Grappling appeared and brought the brunt of the arguments to the fore.  I can summarize a bit in my reply to the email today, and it goes something like this.  Are you willing to learn and routinely practice the necessary skills of self protection centered around the firearm as the primary tool of choice?  This article shines a bright light on the real dirty, scary, terrible aspects of what an altercation would consist of in real life today.  It will be up close, it will be fast, it will be violent.  The  gun itself as a dead object can really do nothing on it's own.  The slight possibility that it is spotted by the bad guy early on, causing him to choose a easier target is "hope" and hope in this case is not a good self defense strategy.   Is owning a firearm the means to self protection?  I think not.  I think a better and more appropriate idea would be to ask; is learning to defend myself with a firearm a reasonable means of self protection?  When faced with the real statistics, is a gun going to be able to protect you?  Maybe.  More appropriately is, are you going to be able to protect yourself using a gun?  That my friends, is the question.

Mr. Barnett
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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

michael

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2011, 06:08:56 AM »

These gun-grappling situations are far more common than most believe. It may be  denial because most CCW carriers and cops don't want to train for it, or it may be the "it won't happen to me syndrome". Whatever the reason, many "gun fights" are hand-to-hand fights before they become "gun fights", and we must be able to solve the unarmed problem before bringing the gun into play. Most would choose to ignore this, but it is at their own peril.

Hock, very well-written article.
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

grlaun

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2011, 09:23:00 AM »

spot on Chief!
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Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
Official Evil Ninja - 2008
Texas Peace Officer 8/2009
"You're making the wrong assumption that a Marine by himself is outnumbered"
Gen Peter Pace, 28Jul06

Mr. Barnett

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2011, 10:21:50 AM »

My feeling is that most "gun guys" would believe that they had eliminated the threat at a much greater distance like you said Michael.
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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

michael

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 09:47:29 AM »

Yes, and most gun focused guys don't want to put in the time that is required in sweat and blood to learn what they need to know. The person who integrates everything into one package is a rare bird, but is the only one on the right track to knowing everything they need to know.
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

JohnS

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 08:11:08 AM »

You will never be as fast as a bullet.But you can be faster than the arm that has to draw the handgun.
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whitewolf

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 08:52:15 AM »

Agree- I have only been in  in one confortation where I was very close to a actual gun but the training to react to the weapon hand got me there first-my 9M was in my holster and never would have gotten to it in time even if i wanted too. Training in this should be presented to every Police/Security type and get them to reolize that just because they are armed in a close setting they have to be able to defend using hands elbows and feet-INMHO also training to trip or sweep a opponent is good training also. WW
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grlaun

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 02:31:45 PM »

I attended a Paul Howe Tactical Pistol Course last weekend - VERY VERY eye opening - most were Feds or local cops with several recent or current military personnel ... the best shooter?  a competitive shooter with over 20 years of competition experience...so these guys who claim they'll "just shoot you" gotta get their gun...bet they done practice from a concealed carry - cause you can't on most ranges.  I have to go to a special range here in Tejas exclusive to cops in order to shoot from my holster.. you gotta get your weapon free and ready FIRST...one of the detectives at the PD I work at was extremely concerned about getting his gun out from a concealed carry as he just came from patrol to CID...I have found that thinking to be rare...Howe's methods were EXTREMELY simple, not easy (someone said that simple is not necessarily easy...)  I was surprised at how well I shot from the high ready, but when I started taking a knee or drawing from my holster, things went South awful quick and we were just shooting at paper targets under time constraints - try drawing and shooting under 3 seconds or get a center mass shot from the high ready under 1.0 seconds - that does things to you.  Takes LOTS of practice to shoot well under training stress conditions, can't imagine getting shot at and doing the same - all the modules that Hock has put together (ESPECIALLY QD module from Level 1!!) have new meaning for me after this past weekend..train hard y'all - someone els e is training hard too...
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Cheat in Beginning - Cheat in the Middle - Cheat in the End
Official Evil Ninja - 2008
Texas Peace Officer 8/2009
"You're making the wrong assumption that a Marine by himself is outnumbered"
Gen Peter Pace, 28Jul06

Mr. Barnett

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 02:56:05 PM »

Hey Rawhide, I'd love to go to a Howe Tac. Pistol Course!  Lucky you bro!  But my wife says that I look funny with a cheapie airsoft with a holster in my PJ's.  Ha, She's never seen what I do when she's not home! 3 weeks with that thing strapped on all day, quickdrawing on everything from the cat (no animals harmed) to the wash machine.  Silly, but quick draw accuracy is way up....Now I just gotta practice all of the above on a horse.

-G
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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

michael

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Re: Gun Arm Grappling
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 05:56:45 AM »

Accessing is key to deployment of any tools, be it firearm, knife, or improvised weapon. If we are unable to bring our weapon into play, it is useless and we have to rely on unarmed skills, and our attacker may be fitter/faster/stronger and better trained. It is a shame that most ranges to do not allow drawing from the holster or shooting from awkward positions, as this is really needed and necessary to be able to fight from all positions, as Hock often stresses.
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda
 

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