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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 23, 2012, 06:47:56 AM
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Author Topic: Just words?  (Read 601 times)

Hock

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Just words?
« on: October 23, 2011, 02:26:56 PM »

"...Bussey latched on to the latest buzzword, "Combatives" like many other instructors out there have..."

I have been thinking about that word again and its use. I saw some artwork for a system last week whose title included "Scientific Combatives."

It wasn't all that long ago, WW II types would jump all over you for using the word combatives (they did me). Like they owned it. Like WW II Combatives-type people owned the word.

Anyway, I was thinking about writing a bit on that word. Three words actually...3 that are worth dissecting and dicussing - "warrior," "tactical," and "combatives."

What are they? What do they really mean? Who should be be throwing them around?

Hock
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 12:13:55 PM by Hock »
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noload

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 10:54:52 AM »

Looking forward to that one. I've long cringed at the use of "warrior" tossed about in the martial arts and else where.
For fun google "What is a warrior" and get ready for some chuckles.

BTW, I am not a warrior.
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Hock

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 11:36:49 AM »

I am not a warrior either.
Never have been.
I know real warriors, like David Hackworth.

Mick Coup of the UK has a great term for most self-professed "tactical" people, or "tactical lifestyle" people - they are really just "tactical tourists." I don't even qualify as a tourist in that regard. (if you are in Afghanistan at a forward, firebase in firefights 2 or three times a day and guarding a perimeter - you are living a tactical lifestyle)

Paul Howe, NCO of Delta Force and vet of the Blawkhawk Down experience, says that he was once an "AG" - action guy. Now, retired? He is just a FAG - former action guy.

And combatives? Well, its an easy word, huh? You can argue with your boss or sister or spouse and be called "combative." I am partly responsible for the virus-like spread of the word. These days, if I could drop the word somehow I would. But then you pick a new name I'd like? Something so innoculous, so..."quiet professional"... then you run yourself right out of business.

I am also real sick of seeing all these 30-year-old kids with "reality-based-self-defense," (another term I hate) COMBATIVES programs who think they are God's gift to...gulp...combatives and think they have ALL the answers. They've done shit with their lives and/or haven't even earned...like a black belt in a decent, respected, hardcore system...something like that...anything like that...(yes, yes I know that black belts don't mean crap anymore. But they once did - which is another problem)

I tell you I get sick of the whole scene. I really do. Sometimes I just want to go teach the art of karate somewhere for fun. Maybe Aiki-jitsu. Or maybe take up farming.

Hock
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:45:26 AM by Hock »
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Canuk

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 01:55:38 PM »

I consider it combat if you have had to fight for your life, not in the "well if could have pulled a knife on me" type of fight but an actual "they turned up to kill ME type of fight"

Most Cops tell you that they put their lives on the line each and every day, i have always thought that to be crap, you put your life on the line each time you step out of the house, or stay in it for that matter. If cops truly thought that they put their life on the line every time they went to work, they would be carrying different equipment.

The word tactical is waaayyy over used. I use tactics for approach to contact, contact and placement/position when ever i approach a person place or thing. To me tactics are a way of thinking about how to solve a problem, more like the approach an engineer would take. A sort of "solve for X" equation.

What is a warrior? well definitions change. I think my son is more of a warrior than i could ever hope to be. He has significant special needs that he faces each and everyday, there is no relative safety of the command center/post/FOB. There is no retasking for him. There is no rotation or shift change. It is a constant, never ending battle for him. He is the truest warrior i have ever met.

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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 02:13:58 PM »

I first read the term "combatives" in the book "Survival on the Battlefield" by Bob Spear, a Hapkido instructor who also taught what would now be called RBSD or combatives.  He used the term as the proper name for a specific military system he thought was useless.

Today it is mostly used to refer to military or military-type systems.  Systems like Fairbairn's were made by taking martial arts, subtracting the things that are difficult or useless according to the instructor, and then adding other things he wants to include.  The idea is to take people with no training and get them competent to defend themselves in little time. 

Lots of instructors have taken what they've learned and simplified it to make a system that they think anyone can learn.  Some might use the terms RBSD and others combatives and many more who have not read internet forums might just call it "self defense."

IMO the gross motor movement thing is not really a requirement, and wasn't really a factor in WWII combatives.  The gross motor movement types say that things like joint locks don't work, yet they were part of WWII combatives.  Just like "pressure testing" and "aliveness," many terms various groups use have been taught by various instructors of almost every system for years before buzzwords were formed to describe them.

Then there is the strange saying, really just a marketing slogan, that martial arts is something you do with someone and combatives is something you do to someone.  That really makes no sense in reality.  In either MA or conbatives, you'd need people to cooperate with training in order to get the technique, and in a fight someone in either type of system would be using their techniques on their attacker.  It would be silly to think that a Karate student, for example, would really expect his attacker to cooperate with him in a fight, or for a Bujinkan student to think that the attacker would do each move the uke would do in a 2-man kata, or for a Judo student to think the attacker would set himself up intentionally for a throw.

Years ago in Self Defense Forums I pointed out that the combatives/RBSD community is just as if not more into personality cults as traditional martial arts.  Someone would ask about a new DVD and they'd get answers like "Only get DVDs from <insert combatives guru>" and students of a certain guru would post pics of very basic FMA, for example, something any first week student would know, and they'd get an entire thread of praises for how great the technique was.  I also read in a book about a belt/certificate burning ceremony, something I find cultic.  If you care nothing about a belt or certificate, why burn it in a ceremony? 

I also question how much "fine motor movements" ability really gets lost.  IMO the movements you make to prevent an accident when a car pulls out in front of you are "fine" by martial arts standards (using just your foot rather than ramming your entire leg on the break as one example) yet most of the time people can react to instant traffic changes and not crash.

I've not seen Bussey Combatives so I can't speak on that directly, but IMO if he took RBWI and removed the fancy stuff then it would be a good base for a combatives or RBSD system, at least as far as the physical skills go.  I really did not have any instruction on awareness when I was there, but the same could be said for most martial arts.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 02:20:14 PM »

"Tactical" covers a lot of area.  Even when dealing with knives, the term was used for two very different types of knives in the 1990s before the term came to mean any type of knife in the 2000s.

When dealing with folders, it referred to folders suitable for defense, usually having a secure lock, one-handed opening, and a pocket clip.  There were other criteria which I don't know, since I saw posts with people saying things like, "I have an Endura for utility but I want a tactical folder for defense."

With fixed blades, it was originally used for the "sharpened prybar" type of knives which could be used to pry open doors for tactical entries.

Today terms like "tactical," "combat," "fighting," and "survival" are just applied to any knife.  Many knives with these terms in their name are just ordinary utility knives.
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 03:08:41 PM »

We'll have to put an add in the paper:

Wanted:  Tactical combative(s) warrior needed.  Please send resume with appropriate kill ratio, days with out water or food, number of fleas, lice, insect bites, sprains, cuts, injuries, blood loss.  Please also include all vehicles and aircraft qualifications, as well as master and doctorate degrees.  The applicant for this  position cannot hail from Hollywood california unless your name is Josey Wales.
 8)-G
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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-

JimH

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 04:30:18 PM »

Combatives is a Mind Set and an Application of Force ,used Offensively over Defensively,meaning when a threat presents its self you attack into the threat,close with the enemy/threat and destroy it/remove it and move on.
RBSD IS NOT the same ,nor is it a guarantee of Combatives qualification as the word DEFENSE used in the description of what you do tells you it is reactionary and defensive rather than realizing the threat and attacking into it using overwhelming force to put and keep the opponent on the defensive and keep them there until they are defeated ,or the threat ended.
Combatives are Reality,but that does not mean the reverse is true.
Many traditional based arts,found more in sport exchanges ,also do not qualify as true combatives.

Many RBSD  and traditional arts train in basic martial art skills,punches,kicks ,general fighting and wrestling or grappling.
Training people to be street fighters does not mean it is combatives,as many times the fights are taught to be prolonged exchanges,over quick endings.
Combatives mostly use,but are not limited to, attacks to vital targets over body mass strikes,targeting things like :eyes,throat,neck,ears,bladder,groin,joints.It is meant to end the conflict quickly,no prolonged exchanges.

If you teach to realize a threat,close with the attacker and remove the threat and you do so quickly over prolonged,sport type self defense then you are probably teaching something along the lines of combatives.

The Purists of WWII Combatives use the simplistic 1946 military manuals as the true source of functional ,usable,military ,battlefield H2H.
(as can be seen in some WWI video on you tube,near the end of WWI they wanted another way to deal in trench warfare,and combatives ,similar to WWII training were used for a short period,many of the creators of that were involved in WWII combatives)
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Hock

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 07:07:16 PM »

There was Gracie Jujitsu - the world's perfect martial art.
Then Gracie...Combatives? Why mess with perfection?

Hock

noload

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 07:43:08 PM »

I tell you I get sick of the whole scene. I really do. Sometimes I just want to go teach the art of karate somewhere for fun. Maybe Aiki-jitsu. Or maybe take up farming.

I think part of the problem is that a way of training turned into a scene where it was (more?) important to be a somebody in a small pond. These days it's not whose the best instructor with the most experience who is well known, but whose marketing is best.

Bonus points if you can work the words combatives, tactical, warrior and reality into your new systems name.
Single bonus point if you use the name of an ancient warrior group in you system's name.

And I miss the good old days of training karate and Japanese Jujutsu before kids became the main clientel. We knew we were a bunch of guys who were doing something a bit oddball and out of the norm but we loved what we were doing.
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Benjamin Liu

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 08:09:18 PM »

The Army combatives program is BJJ and is more for exercise and competition, yet it is still called "Combatives."  If the military is the main requirement for something to be associated with "tactical," "warrior," or "combatives," then wouldn't anything the Army does that it called "combatives" be combatives?

If the Army decided to teach a kid's Karate class as the "combatives" program, then would it by definition be "combatives" since the Army says it is? 
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JimH

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2011, 09:18:34 PM »

Gracie Jujitsu
Gracie Combatives
Gracie Street Self Defense

Varied names
ALL the Exact Same program,(and all JUDO)

The Army Combatives program is to try to instill a fight mind set,and to have sport competitions.
Not a Battle Field H2H PROGRAM
(when soldiers are told to hold an attacker till help comes ,on a battle field,some thing is WRONG )

Men /women who engage an enemy in life or death conflict on a battle field are Warriors for sure.

Those men and women who engage in martial art training and believe they are Warriors because they fight under rules and sweat a little are just kidding themselves.
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TLE

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 04:58:18 AM »

"I tell you I get sick of the whole scene. I really do. Sometimes I just want to go teach the art of karate somewhere for fun. Maybe Aiki-jitsu. Or maybe take up farming. "

Hock

Agreed. After a grand tour of  Combatives, RBSD, Warrior Training, Blade Master Training,Killer Elite Training, Kick Ass and Take Names Training, Be the Baddest Mo Fo on Earth Training- what a bunch of characters- myself included. I now see the simplicity of solid, tough, traditional MA. If and when I ever instruct again, that's all I will teach.
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michael

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 05:50:39 AM »

Tactical Warrior Combatives.....it's not just for breakfast anymore. I think I'll go eat a donut and talk trash on the internet...... ;D
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

JimH

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 07:55:58 AM »

The problem today is that most people are not looking for a solid ,tough,old school style martial art.
They are looking for a quick fix,a few hours spent in a day doing kicks and punches and MA basics,walk out the door and imagine themselves Bad A** warriors.

If you teach,or want to teach a solid,tough Old School style martial art,you better be doing it for fun as you will have few students signing up and staying for a few years training hard,not like TKD schools with 200 or 300 plus students,most thinking they will be in the Olympics,lol.

Today if they get bruised,bumped or bloody ,they quit.
So if you are tough and realistic in teaching old school,you will only get the few who accept and welcome some minor injuries as part of the learning,growing,process.
Sad reflection really on society and how it has changed in the last 30 years or less.

Even a tough,old school combatives class only has a few dedicated students who realize one day training is not enough,that training to protect yourself requires training it on a regular basis.

The proof comes when you need to protect yourself.
Can you ?
Will you ?
Will you walk away ?
Sadly,I think,many so called Tactical Combatives Warriors,who actually train in sport, will not walk away,and they will realize the descriptive names of what they trained in were just draws for the wannabes.
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