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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 23, 2012, 06:48:23 AM
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Author Topic: Just words?  (Read 601 times)

Benjamin Liu

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2011, 01:10:41 PM »

I realize the problems with the current Army combatives system, but my question is "who decides what is and is not combatives?"  If it is the military, then couldn't they use the term for whatever they want to use it for, and if so wouldn't their current system be combatives?

Would a non-military person training in and then teaching WWII combatives be teaching combatives if he was never in the military?  What about someone in the military who never fought?

I did an Amazon search for books on "combatives" published before 1990 and got 29 results.  Some books listed used the word "combative" as an adjective and really were not relevant to the search.  There were also duplicate listings.  For some reason a couple of Jim Web's VHS tapes were listed even though they were not books.  There were books such as "Cold Steel" by Styers which used the word "combative" and most of the books with "combatives" in the title were the actual military combatives manuals and some 1960s  Green Beret manuals.  There was one book on various sports which listed "combatives" in the title as one of the topics covered, and it was published in 1945.  Of course Amazon is not a comprehensive search on a topic, and they might miss some books, but this does show that the term was not a very popular term used in books until relatively recently.  In a search for "Combatives" books after 1990, there were 171 results.  Hock's books were on the first page, results 4 and 5.  There were too many results to look through, but there were some duplicates, some books that really just mateched the term coincidently, but there were still many more books on combatives published after 1990 than before. 
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Hock

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 02:13:37 PM »

I have the word "Scientific" in the headline since the early 1990s. Scientific comes to me from Bruce Lee's Scientific Street Fighting and hearing Scientific Lightening Arnis.

I am partially responsible for the flooding use of the term Combatives though. One or two years in the early 2000s, I spent $12,000 or more each year with Black Belt magazine alone in advertising. A bit less in the 90s. All pumping the word combatives, combatives, combatives..."this or that."

If I could change the word in my stuff I really would. I am stuck with it. Its a nice enough word. Inclusive enough. I don't much like the word "fighting," either. Like I said, I would pick a word so "quiet" that I would loose business and have to sell Italian shoes for a living.  A plumber has to have the word "plumbing" in his ad.

So, combatives it is. But, if I win the lottery though...

Hock


gematriot

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 02:31:22 PM »

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"Any experiment of interest in life will be carried out at your own expense. Mark it well. "

arnold

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 08:05:41 PM »

Mr. Barnett,
I think I have all of the bases covered. I need to bleed just a tad more. You'll have to ask Hock to verify if I've actually bled enough! I wanted to be a Superhero once before, but I'll settle for warrior.
Thanks
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you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

Benjamin Liu

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 09:12:08 PM »

Just like many other terms in just about any subject, words are needed to describe or identify different things and sometimes don't have strict definitions. 

I've even seen dictionary definitions of various terms that are not all that accurate, and people who look up "term X" and find that it is used for "definition" who automatically assume anything fitting "definition A" will always be labeled "term X."  This is especially true when the definitions are not very detailed.  If someone defined the F-S Commando Dagger as "A British knife used in WWII," then a person with the mindset described above could say a Smatchet is a F-S Commando Dagger since it is a British knife used in WWII.

What is "Mixed Martial Arts?"  Everyone knows it is the type of system use din the UFC, but aren't systems like Kenpo Karate and JKD mixed martial arts?  MMA guys won't agree, but these and other systems can be described as being mixed martial arts.  Many more instructors learn one system and add in other things not traditionally found in the system, so is that not MMA?  Years ago one Karate instructor told me that learning other systems like Judo, Jujutsu, and Kung Fu is what "makes a good Karateka."

In the real world, as long as instructors at least attempt to accurately describe what they are doing rather than finding a marketing buzzword they think will sell, it probably won't matter much.  People would either know or find out what "combatives," "RBSD," "MMA," "traditional martial arts," "Women's self-defense," etc. mean. 

From what I've seen, the guys with the biggest schools seem to be those who are into kids' Karate or kids' Tae Kwon Do.

To the general public, it is all "Karate."  Lots of people who know I train in martial arts ask me from time to time, "Do you still do Karate?"
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5thprofession47

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Re: Just words?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 08:45:39 PM »

Wow, I never would have guessed my comment on Bussey's use of the term 'Combatives' would have caused such a stir. It was simply an observation made years ago when Bussey made the name change.

These days the term has become somewhat generic like 'karate'. Speaking of that, a few months ago Robert Bussey's former business partner, Jim Rosenbach was presented with a new storefront sign for his Fremont, Nebraska school by his students. This is a full size, illuminated sign erected on the front of the building that says, wait for it...."Karate". I shook my head when I saw a photo of it. Mr. Bussey and Mr. Rosenbach have never taught Japanses karate. Their formal background is in Tae Kwon Do, Ninjutsu, and Hapkido with full contact kickboxing,  and Moo Ki Do (an art created by Bussey) as part of the mix. Still, the student there have defaulted these days to the generic term for martial arts, karate.

 
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