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Author Topic: Addressing the Article Hicks Law  (Read 356 times)

RevBodhi

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Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« on: December 04, 2011, 08:23:11 AM »

From Richard A. Schmidt's MOTOR LEARNING AND PERFORMANCE 2008, 4TH EDITION, page 32, we find the truth of this Scientific Law (Hick's Law), meaning it is neither theory, suggestion, opinion or idea, but a law demonstrated over and over again through multiple tests to be valid and reliable in every fashion.

Schmidt states: discovered that the relationship between choice Reaction Time(RT) and the logarithm of the number of stimulus-response pairs is linear...it has been shown to hold a wide variety of situations using various types of participants, stimuli, and movements.  Hick's Law is one of the most important laws of human performance.  The relationship implies that choice RT increases by a constant amount every time the number of stimulus-response alternatives is double, e.g., from 2 to 4 or from 16 to 32...Choice Reaction Time is linearly related to the amount of information that must be processed during the decision stage, that is, when a performer is deciding what to do

And herein becomes the problem with how Hick's Law is applied in real time.

I believe that the Law is not fully understood, or at least some of the terminology used is misunderstood.

Hick's Law measures and addresses REACTION TIME.  What is REACTION TIME?  Looking in any major Motor Learning college text, Schmidt's above or Magill's, for example, will use the same definitions.

Reaction Time or RT is the measurement of how long it takes a person to initiate a movement, whereby this RT is the interval of time between the onset of the signal or cue (in the case of this forum--threat cue) and the initiation of the choice response.

It is important to note that this RT does NOT include the movement itself but only the time PRIOR to when the movement begins.

MT or movement time begins when the Reaction Time ends as is defined as the interval of time between the initiation and completion of movement.

Response time--not REACTION TIME (RT)--is the total time interval involving both RT (reaction time) and MT (movement time).

So, once we grasp the terminology scientists use in motor learning, we see Hick's Law ONLY addresses RT or Reaction Time, NOT response time nor does it measure Movement Time (MT).  Hick's Law is very accurate and dead on the money for what the law addresses, being that the more choices we possess needing discrimination slows down how fast we elicit  a reaction time, which is merely that time of seeing what is, discriminating our choices and then choosing that alternative.  This has nothing to do with what actions occur once we have made that reaction time.  Our movements begin when the Reaction Time ends and is measured from the end of this reaction time to the completion of the movement.

Problems arise when people want Hick's Law to address MOVEMENT.  It does NOT--only REACTION TIME--not the subsequent movement.

Hick's Law remains as valid as Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics, which are far older than Hick's Law.

Appropriately designed training paradigms which desire to address the complexities of the dynamic and chaotic environment of horrific human violence are likewise complex when addressing all the variables needed to develop the cognitive and motor skill-sets demanded if operators wish to prevail in said environment.  Hick's Law is but one Law used in Motor Learning warning us, simply that, the more choices we possess which demand our cognitive discrimination, the reaction time that results in choosing the correct action that only initiates the beginning of the required action will be slower than if we have no need to choose or have only a few choices from which to discriminate and initiate the act.  Hick's Law does not address nor apply to everything following that choice initiated.  Fitt's Law--another Law--not theory or suggestion does state specifically accuracy and speed are diametrically opposed to one another, whereby the faster we go, accuracy is compromised; the more accurate we aim our focus, the slower that aim will be will dictate movements in some specific lethal force issues, especially when shooting a firearm under dire duress.

So, to summarize, Hick's Law is very real and alive and LAW--not theory or suggestive idea, but it only addresses and applies to Reaction Time--not response time, which is the total time interval involving both Reaction Time(RT) and Movement Time MT).

Keep it real and keep it specific to the task at hand.
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Canuk

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 12:33:07 PM »

Hmm lots to absorb, this for the post
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noload

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 02:33:18 PM »

I'll have to check that book out.
From my experience Hick's experiment is very misunderstood and applied in ways that it was never intended. Often they also try to apply it with the idea that a person has to go through all of their knowledge to determine and react to an action.
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RevBodhi

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 03:04:15 PM »

noload: That is the principle problem of scientific research, even among scientists, in that information that is found to be reliable and valid in one very specific area, is then applied or forced in ways which the information is not supposed to address, measure or resolve.

For something in the realm of science to ascend to law, however, means that it has been proven over and over again to be reliable and valid.  Like Einstein's Theory of Relativity is up for grabs, but Newton's Laws of Thermodynamics rule.  This doesn't mean that others will not come along an attempt to use this LAW in a way that it is not designed to cover.

This is why I felt compelled to provide the documentation that explains this law, and what it is actually measuring and covering.  Hick's Law is very specific.  It is measuring a specific cognitive skill--not a motor skill--consistently.  As soon as the operator progresses into a motor function, other variables come into play.

Hick's Law however cannot be refuted--at least not on this planet, in this galaxy.  It can be misunderstood and applied improperly--which it very often is.  And when tests are done applying this Law correctly, results that do not fit in the norm will reliably demonstrate diseased states or the presence of other variables influencing the test subject's ability to properly engage a "normal" cognitive function--like when someone is intoxicated.

Still, they are numerous applications to this Law demonstrating cognitive discrimination of choices needing to be made upon receiving a specific cue or stimulus, demanding an appropriate choice be made--which then leads to that action.  Hick's Law stops at the action being made.

One might say that Hick's Law applies to the section of perceptual recognition/acknowledgment with the appropriate assessment--that is--the time taken from seeing the cue and say, deciding it is not a threat.  And if it is threatening, choose to engage or disengage.  But here is where confusion begins.  When I choose to engage (or not), which Hick's Law addresses, the motor skills I choose to use and how I choose to use them has nothing to do with Hick's Law.  Other cognitive and motor skill functions take it from there.

The rest involves working memory accessing long term memory leading to procedural memory as conditioned through a very detailed, variable or diverse training environment which literally mimics the context of this operational environment/situation ...which becomes another essay.

Science is great, when it is used specifically for that which it was found to address, correctly.  Like training for real world, horrific violence, when the context is incorrectly understood, so too are the conclusions.

Training cannot be simplified to one LAW--be it Hick's, Fitt's, or any kind, and to attempt such an endeavor, merely demonstrates that that trainer's understanding of what is fully needed to create a sound, realistic training paradigm, addressing survivability and prevailing in a violent, potentially deadly environment is greatly lacking.

I Hope this offers some much needed light on the topic of Hick's Law, its essence as Scientific Law, and what it can and cannot measure.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 03:26:24 PM by RevBodhi »
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Hock

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 03:40:31 PM »

"Hick's Law however cannot be refuted--at least not on this planet, in this galaxy.  It can be misunderstood and applied improperly--which it very often is..."

Agreed - Hick's law exists. No doubt. But it also exists within a realm of milleseconds of a second, and there 1,000 milleseconds in a second.

It really shouldn't be abused as an excuse to dumb down good training and good training methods as it has in various martial, police and military  training programs.

Hock

RevBodhi

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 03:56:42 PM »

You are absolutely correct in your assessment, Hock, of not relegating training down to a single law, any law, no matter how irrefutable, as I have mentioned above.  And there, I have no argument.  The milliseconds are what actually proves and quantifies the consistency of the RT of the law.

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noload

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 07:59:35 PM »

It really shouldn't be abused as an excuse to dumb down good training and good training methods as it has in various martial, police and military  training programs.

And that is something I've seen even excellent instructors do (and I don't mean TB). One fellow said that students can fail because they have too many options, but left out the context that they were failing in. Was it the street where they were responding to an attack, or was it the dojo where they were trying to find the right technique to make sensei happy?
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Canuk

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 10:02:17 PM »

I would (and do ) suggest that there are way to many variables to count as why a technique will or won't work on "the street" That tactic or technique that didn't work a second ago, may work a second from now.

I was never formally taught to fight/arrest people in stair wells but i do it. Sometimes we end up in the pig pile, sometimes we dont
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RevBodhi

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 06:03:25 AM »

As we can observe on this very thread, we can bear witness to how something as irrefutable as a Scientific Law slowly degrades.

Noload makes an excellent argument, showing how a trainer uses examples about an operator failing due to too many choices.  This has nothing to do with Hick's Law.  This issue is why is this operator failing?  Which is more likely due to improper training than Hick's Law acting insidiously behind the operator.

This is what I mean about people in the commercial martial arts arena and 'Defensive Tactics' venues--something I believe Mr. Walter Hochheim is attempting to address in his original article that I am attempting to clarify.

A little knowledge is very dangerous when very specific laws, principles, and concepts are only lightly comprehended and then applied in ways for which they are not designed.

The truth of the matter is cognitive, affective and psychomotor skill learning is highly complex, and to date, having been in this crazy--insane arena since 1963, I personally observe far more improperly deployed training paradigms attempting to address the context of horrific human violence, than are appropriately engaged.  This is across the board, obviously at the commercial level, and certainly within DoD and the Law Enforcement community struggling with their budget constraints.

Learning motor skills, for example, relies on three distinct principles of transfer of what is learned.

There is positive transfer where previously learned motor skills aids in the development of new skills; negative transfer, where previously learned motor skills inhibits the acquisition of new motor skills to be learned; and zero transfer, where previously learned motor skills has no impact, whatsoever on learning new skills--like how swimming does nothing to prepare you for driving an automobile.

Transference of motor skills cannot accurately be assumed to occur without careful observation and detailed assessments in what is being taught and whether or not what is being taught is actually being learned for its specific contextual environment. (Richard A. Magill; MOTOR LEARNING: CONCEPTS & PRINCIPLES, (Brown and Benchmark, 1993 p. 72).

Transference of motor skills can be positive, overall, but with negative transfer specifics for which a trainer may not be aware.  Something as subtle as, say, a forehand action with a blade or stick that involves a learned pattern of snapping the wrist, will momentarily impeded a forearm action where the wrist must now be kept locked to execute a powerful, impacting blow (Magill, 72).

Such negative nuances are usually temporary and usually easily corrected with CORRECT PRACTICE in the context mimicking the actual operational environment.  But we can see that if a trainer is not aware of this negative transfer, nor the practitioner, when the need for a powerful blow is forthcoming, what will occur is what is known--the wrist snap--and the practitioner will wonder why the application failed.

All the above has nothing to do with Hick's Law, but with the complexity of transfer of learning--which is highly complex at both cognitive and psychomotor skill levels of learning.

As to why any application fails, without detailed documentation and observation of the entire contextual event, there maybe no reliable and valid way to pick out the multiple, interacting relationships forthcoming to which the participants and trainers are aware or not.  What happens is we guess what's wrong and through trail and error, may or may not correct the problem.

Here is something that must be fully understood about training and when designing appropriate paradigms, addressing variables that must be addressed--all exclusive of Hick's Law.  This was an argument made way back in 1979, found in Cermak's and Craik's anthology LEVELS OF PROCESSING IN HUMAN MEMORY, where Bransofrd, Franks, Morris and Stein wrote in the chapter addressing constraints on learning and memory (pp. 331-354), Hillsdale, NJ: Erlaum: ...the actual 'test' for learning a new skill can ONLY be found in the actual performance of the skill, accomplishing the actual goal needing achieved in the real performance context in which the skill's goal must be accomplished.  Sounds like pure common sense, doesn't it?!

Essentially, we must prepare specifically for the context in which we want to operate through the kinds of training which fully addresses the actual needs found in this operational context.  The proof in any training paradigm's true efficiency and effectiveness is found in whether or not we can perform the necessary skills we are learning in training to the real world, operational context.  If we are failing, it isn't due to Hick's Law and the number of choices, but from the ENTIRE training paradigm not addressing the issues it needs to address.  It could be as obvious as practitioners learning only closed skills in a fixed learning environment that has become too predictable, developing an automaticity that is inappropriate for and will not transfer to a variable, unpredictable context demanding novel, open skills.

When an operator fails in real world OPS--the first thing to look at is the operator, and then the ENTIRE preparation phase that operator under went.

My whole argument for this article was to address the fact that Hick's Law is LAW and cannot be refuted, killed, kicked about or demeaned.  IT IS LAW...like the Law of Gravity, and that was my specific focus of this write up, and to clarify what Hick's Law entails.

That people and trainers do not understand this LAW, attempt to ignore it, deny its influence on reaction times, misrepresent it, and blame it for their own incompetence and ignorance, is S.O.P. for being human, especially in this billion dollar environment of commercial martial arts and 'defensive training' where so many want their share of the monetary pie, which really is not the issue of this thread.

Simply put, anyone who uses Hick's Law, blaming it for operational failure is already telling me, they have no idea what Hick's Law is about.  Anyone who uses Hick's Law as a sole foundation guide for developing their training paradigm has not one clue about what one needs to prepare for a potential killing combat arena.

Training for the real world is highly complex, demanding a training context that NOT merely closely mimics the AO, but actually does mimic operational stressors found in this operational environment.  If this 'real' context is not established, preparation becomes, literally a crap shoot for success where failure is just as likely as success.

And Canuk: that you have never trained in a stairwell to apprehend and cuff a suspect, demonstrates numerous personal attributes, which are not skills, but innate to your unique biology, as well as having experienced positive learning transfer where past skill sets learned are successfully being extrapolated into a novel situation; and that past training contexts have also been positively transferred, offering a measure of familiarity that serves your purpose nicely.  Again--this has nothing to do with Hick's Law of Reaction Time, but approaches not only the complexity of individual genetic predispositions, but also of positive learning transference from past skills and past contextual environments.  ONE Cannot argue success, only try to understand why we are.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 06:17:41 AM by RevBodhi »
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Canuk

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 08:50:41 AM »

So, if I'm reading this right, Hicks Law, while it is undoubtedly and irrefutably a law should be considered in the same context as J walking? A minor law, that while on the books really should not be bothered with from a training standpoint or enforcement standpoint.
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RevBodhi

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 10:10:56 AM »

A Law is a law in science.  It is not little, small, big, bloated, half, quarter or insignificant.  These are not human laws written on books through subjective selection, but physical laws whereby consistency exists in the physical expression of the laws--even Hick's Law is a matter of consistent bioelectrical impulses over and through the CNS.  It is a physically based law.  It is no more little than the law of gravity is little.

Gravity is not a problem until we, say, fall off a cliff without a parachute or don't have deep water to jump into.  Herein lies the problem with scientific law--improperly applied to where it doesn't rule.

Hick's Law has numerous applications in human performance when it comes to cognitive discrimination needing to be done, from the time a stimulus is recognized, to the time we choose our response--correct or not, timely or not.  It becomes problematic in regards to human performance when we are in an environment involving lethal force issues where cognitive discrimination means the difference from choosing correctly what is needed and milliseconds can mean the difference between someone's (even our own life) life.

But here we must be extremely careful with what we are measuring, and how we are using Hick's Law.  We have to understand when training people for managing high risk elements, Hick's Law is important, but not the only law, concept and principle working.  If it is not properly addressed--PEOPLE CAN BE KILLED DUE TO SAID IGNORANCE OF THAT LAW.  People get killed J-Walking and why it's law.  Not many get killed, but they do.  It's insignificant until someone gets killed violating it.

The more cognitive choices we must choose from, naturally increases our reaction time.  This can negatively impact the generation of the required movement with this slowed reaction time.

But other human variables are also at work, which may possess even more of an impact--such as improper automaticity applying too much speed when accuracy is needed (Fitt's Law) to where our automatic actions rushing from our slowed reaction time causes us to shoot the hostage and not the Criminal.

Yes, our reaction time may have been impaired because we had several choices bouncing around in our head--but this may be due to the operational specifics for which we are not familiar, which causes a delay due to the novelty.  And then because we were now frazzled due to the slowed reaction time we stress out and force ourselves to go faster than our ability to shoot accurately allows.  OOPS!  We killed an innocent due to the influence of both Hick's Law and Fitt's Law.

What people must understand about laws is that they are law.  There is nothing small or big about them.  It's about understanding where they are applicable and where they are not applicable.

If I am lying in bed, gravity is present, but it's not really a worry.  When I am flying in a plane--it's a big factor.  Same with Hick's Law.  It is extremely important in understanding HOW humans process internal and external data, fluidly to arrive at a mental choice conclusion from a specific cue demanding a reaction.  The more cognitive choices we bounce around in that chemical soup of a brain we choose to play with, the slower we will arrive at choosing a choice.  That's what Hick's Law states consistently.  If you look at it--it's common sense.

You have three bottles of soda pop each a different brand, in front of you and you know not the brands.  Choose one.  This choosing is in your head where we must pick among multiples.  This will be slower than if you have three bottles in front of you and you at least know one brand or if there is only two bottles or just one bottle.

If you have ten different brands of soda pop bottles in front of you and there are two bottles of which you know, but one you hate and one you really like, doing the mental discrimination to sort through the ten bottles, and then locate the two you know and then needing to see and choose the one you like and want really slows your reaction time for mentally choosing the one you want.  This is how Hick's Law can be understood.

And as long as it is soda pop it is not problematic, but if one bottle is quick acting poison with no antidote, and it is poorly marked and when now have ten bottles to discriminate through so that we don't drink the poison--reaction time is slowed.  If we have just two bottles, even when one is poorly marked, reaction time for mentally choosing the one that is not poison is quicker.

Trainers must understand these variables and address them correctly.  Hick's Law is law and it must be used appropriately, as must all laws--even gravity. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:35:21 AM by RevBodhi »
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JimH

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 10:46:26 AM »

Any training we do ,no matter if figured for a particular need or AO,increases the choices we have to go through when we encounter any similar situation.
The training we do keeps these factors in instant recall  so lag time for recall is shorter.

Hicks law says that the more choices we have to react to a certain situation or stimulus the more time it takes to make a choice ,be it correct or not.(reactionary)

So if we look at training and we train in pure ,no rules,self protection and on other days we train in rules driven sport,the one we do the most often will be the one we draw from first,as it is freshest in our minds  and have become reflexive.
If we train BJJ as sport and do it more often when we find ourselves in a self defense situation,even though we train minimally in Street self protection,BJJ will win out as the choice to go with.

If I drive a car on a three lane road way,driving in the middle lane and the car in front slams on the brakes what are my choices of reaction ?
Slam on my brakes and hope there is enough room to stop,or I slam into the car in front
or
I quick check,left and right sides and quickly make a choice to turn into one of those lanes,maybe just turning the wheel,maybe tapping the brakes to allow the vehicle to the side to pass and then turn or speed up and change lanes in front of a vehicle to the left or right.
Now in making a choice for reaction time we must work with :
speed of the car,
ability to turn left or right,
stopping distance at speed,
stopping or slowing rate of the car in front,
speed and proximity of vehicles left and right and figure if we have room to make a change.

All of that can and is done in milliseconds,so in reality how has hicks law impacted our choice ?

If we are a good driver and have been paying attention to traffic flow around us we would immediately know which way to turn the vehicle to make a correct choice,if we have not been aware,then we must make a quick check taking a few milliseconds more to make the correct choice.

If one has ever gone to jump school ,one is taught reaction to landing on another parachute.
It is a walk thru explanation,nothing physical they can do to recreate it .
it is not even worked on much aside from the odd times they tell you  what to do:
when you land on another jumpres chute,run off as quickly as possible before your chute comes down on top of you.
Any jumpers out there who have encountered this situation,know it is life and or death for you and the jumper below you and find that wow I landed on a chute,run off and you do it,and everyone is fine.
Life and death situation,not trained physically,only talked about a few times,yet in a life and death situation the correct choice is made in milliseconds.

Training if done not just in rote fashion,but in understanding concepts and principles in application allows one to adapt to situations and or environments.
So Canuk in understanding principles is able to adapt from large space to confined space to stairwell spaces and angles  and adapt his training to suit his need ,without being trained in that particular skill and or AO,so he is able to adapt and make a choice based on past knowledge and training and make it fit the need,and accomplish this in milliseconds.

The law of gravity explanes why we are able to stay on the ground and how things are pulled in by gravity.
but
Is Hicks law really needed to create training situations ?
I imagine theat prehistoric man ,once he began to walk,create weapons and hunt,encountered Hicks law of choice and reaction time,but did he ,or we, need it to understand why and how we do or did what we did ?
I doubt it.
So it is not a law of need but a law that may interest some as a law of why.
The average person has not heard of Hicks law and does not care about it,those in human sciences and the few of us in martial arts know of it to try and better our understanding of performance with it,so it is a law but of minimal importance to the average man.

Hicks law is a law,as for computers ,from which it comes,and yes there is time to make choices and slightly more time is needed in making the correct choice from many variables,but it is not that important a law that time in performance is that affected,especially not if the person is aware and evaluating situations before and or as they happen.

My opinion.
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RevBodhi

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 11:55:04 AM »

JimH:  Excellent comments!!!

In looking at your statements: If I drive a car on a three lane road way,driving in the middle lane and the car in front slams on the brakes what are my choices of reaction ?
Slam on my brakes and hope there is enough room to stop,or I slam into the car in front or
I quick check,left and right sides and quickly make a choice to turn into one of those lanes,maybe just turning the wheel,maybe tapping the brakes to allow the vehicle to the side to pass and then turn or speed up and change lanes in front of a vehicle to the left or right.
Now in making a choice for reaction time we must work with :
speed of the car,
ability to turn left or right,
stopping distance at speed,
stopping or slowing rate of the car in front,
speed and proximity of vehicles left and right and figure if we have room to make a change.
 


The choices involving Hick's Law are the mental choice variables you are presented with at the cognitive level in the above scenario.  And whatever choices you must choose between and finally decide to do, in your mind--not actually stepping on the brake--is where Hick's Law rules, and where it is showing consistent behavior.

Too much is starting to be made about entire training protocol that doesn't even involve the Law and isn't the issue I am trying to state.

I am attempting to show what Hick's law rules (cognitive discrimination arriving at a mental choice) and dictates (internal mental choice discretion), and that it is law-- irrefutable.

What people want to do with it, how they use it in their training protocol, whether they are aware of it or whether they even know about it, or where they place in their training vocabulary and training priorities is not the issue of the thread or my concern.

When people say that Hick's Law is dead or outdated and no longer valid , that is when I have an issue.  What people want to do in their training protocol and how they want to conduct their training will, as I documented in a previous post stated in 1979, discover the hard way, in real time as to whether or not the training paradigm they used addressed all the variables and the correct context or not.

Bottomline--what are your mental choices presented.  The more mental choices you must discriminate against, reaction time is slower the more choices we need to discriminate.  What people want to make of this has nothing to do with the laws validity or its reliability.  Reaction times will be slower.  Use that information however one wants.

I merely wanted to take the time to clarify Hick's Law that it is law, and precisely what it measures, showing it does matter where it matters.  Like gravity, people are going to do what they do, regardless, and that is not my concern.

People don't worry about gravity.  Does it matter?  Gravity matters, how people think about it doesn't--gravity still works, regardless.  So in truth, gravity explains NOTHING--humans do that.  Gravity IS WHY we don't fly off the planet.  Hick's Law explains nothing.  Hick's Law is why we make slower reaction times with more choices.  Hick's merely demonstrated the presence of the law, formulating or explaining its existence.





« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 12:10:23 PM by RevBodhi »
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whitewolf

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 01:34:14 PM »

I am going to have to reread all the posts to catch on to what is being
said-but one question  that immediately pops up is this.
Does Hicks Law as discribed here apply to how a instructor teaches  his
particular principals of defense to his students? Do we explain the law basically to the class? Thanks-WW
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noload

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Re: Addressing the Article Hicks Law
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2011, 01:38:21 PM »

Personally I wouldn't even bring it up in a class because if the student (or instructor) misunderstands Hicks, more confusion than clarity often results.
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