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[Thomas Grutzius]

I am looking for general comments regarding point shooting, good and bad.

At what distance is point shooting no longer viable?  21 yards? 30 yards?

[szorn]

Point-shooting is just one of the various components of combat. It's similar to asking what range of empty-hand combat is most effective. In short we must understand and become profficient at all ranges of combat-long, mid, and short. The same holds true with firearm tactics- understand sighted-fire tactics (long range), point-shooting tactics (mid-range to close range), and ECQ tactics (extreme close range). Don't neglect one tactic for another, as you never know when you might need that neglected tactic.

Steve

[Professor]

I am looking for general comments regarding point shooting, good and bad.

At what distance is point shooting no longer viable?  21 yards? 30 yards?

If I have to....I will and can.....but, at 6 feet, I can easily be off by 6-8"  when point shooting in a speed situation.   Will it work, yep!


It's no longer viable when I have time to get a sight picture. 

[celtica]

I am a common citizen, except I choose not to be a victim. So, considering I am a every day guy, I reserached what can be easily assimilated and be ready for use at a moments notice by a working guy who doesn't have a lot of time learning 'fine motor skills'. My research resulted in my conclusion that I can be relatively effective at learning 'gross motor skills'.

Point shooting is a gross motor skill, you point, you shoot. It works. It was good enough for Applegate to teach to our common everyday heros of WWII, it was good enough Wild Bill Hicock, it's sure good enough for me.

It may not be in vogue, but that's OK.

[Thomas Grutzius]

Thanks to all who replied. Sorry about the duplicate thread.

[Professor]

I am a common citizen, except I choose not to be a victim. So, considering I am a every day guy, I reserached what can be easily assimilated and be ready for use at a moments notice by a working guy who doesn't have a lot of time learning 'fine motor skills'. My research resulted in my conclusion that I can be relatively effective at learning 'gross motor skills'.

Point shooting is a gross motor skill, you point, you shoot. It works. It was good enough for Applegate to teach to our common everyday heros of WWII, it was good enough Wild Bill Hicock, it's sure good enough for me.

It may not be in vogue, but that's OK.

Welcome to the forum!


No offense meant,but:  We also began teaching one handed shooting with the other hand on our chest, not for protecting the vitals....but for holding the reins of a horse. 

I don't agree that it's a gross motor skill.   It's a lazy way to shooting and an excuse for not taking the time to get a sight picture (it's good enough).  However, as I stated earlier, If you have the time for a sight picture....take it.     

Using the sight picture is the easiest way to teach the common person to shoot.   After you have that down, point shooting is another option.  I certainly wouldn't teach it as the first survival skill.   

Come to the range and point shoot with me (using a sight picture) from 3, 7, 12, 15, 20 and 25 yards.    Bring a newby and I'll give 'em guns to shoot.   I'll make a small wager that the newby with a sight picture will perform better within 10 minutes of shooting.

your milage may vary.

Jeff

[Kevbo]

First off I am not a proffesional shooter by any means,I shoot when I can to keep some basic skills.
I went to the range just to play with point shooting in a personal little experiment.
I set a human fiqure target at our states CCW standard 21 foot passing grade 15 out of 20 hits ,no time limit range.

Just for fun I laid the gun .45 acp 1911,in variouse directions on a table in front of me.I did a startled drill where I had 2 seconds to pick up the pistol 1 handed and double tap the target.
To my surprise all 20 shots where on the target,granted not all kill shots but still hit.
Now try this with a hostage target and you will still hit the bad guy,but usually after traveling through the person being held in front of them.

I firmly believe in teaching point shooting,but you can't just say you don't every need to use the sights.e.g. try point shooting 25 yards plus and try talking about grouping.

.02

[lakerssportsfan]

Real life gunfights tend to happen at very close distances. under those circumstances many people--including trained cops--are not able to focus on the sights. They are not able to focus on anything but the person trying to kill you who is no more than ten feet away.

Point shooting channels this builds on this. What someone could or could not do with sighted fire against a paper target at 26 yards with no one shooting at them is irrelevant to this issue.

[Trembula]

As I recollect (it has been a while since I saw the "Applegate" point shooting WW2 training film), they began by teaching Sighted fire, then culminated with "point" or "insinctive" shooting for the "Action" type pistol range they had set up for the trainees.

There is a continuum of "aiming" techniques that goes from "instinctive"/point/body index or whatever you want to call it, to "front sight" index, to conventional sighted fire. Although I think each should be trained individually to become proficient in the slightly different skills, I have noticed myself using all three in the same IDPA stage without thinking about it - the range and circumstances will dictate which technique to use and given enough practice, it seems plausible that we will instinctively choose the appropriate method to put rounds on target.

Dan

[celtica]

I am a common citizen, except I choose not to be a victim. So, considering I am a every day guy, I reserached what can be easily assimilated and be ready for use at a moments notice by a working guy who doesn't have a lot of time learning 'fine motor skills'. My research resulted in my conclusion that I can be relatively effective at learning 'gross motor skills'.

Point shooting is a gross motor skill, you point, you shoot. It works. It was good enough for Applegate to teach to our common everyday heros of WWII, it was good enough Wild Bill Hicock, it's sure good enough for me.

It may not be in vogue, but that's OK.

Welcome to the forum!


No offense meant,but:  We also began teaching one handed shooting with the other hand on our chest, not for protecting the vitals....but for holding the reins of a horse. 

I don't agree that it's a gross motor skill.   It's a lazy way to shooting and an excuse for not taking the time to get a sight picture (it's good enough).  However, as I stated earlier, If you have the time for a sight picture....take it.     

Using the sight picture is the easiest way to teach the common person to shoot.   After you have that down, point shooting is another option.  I certainly wouldn't teach it as the first survival skill.   

Come to the range and point shoot with me (using a sight picture) from 3, 7, 12, 15, 20 and 25 yards.    Bring a newby and I'll give 'em guns to shoot.   I'll make a small wager that the newby with a sight picture will perform better within 10 minutes of shooting.

your milage may vary.

Jeff

Thanks for the welcome...

I think point shooting is a gross motor skill. For instance, I studied 'proper' martial arts for over 5 years. It became apparent to me that repetitive acts over and over to establish muscle memory was becoming tiresome to me. Then a freind started debating with me about reality based fighting and how it's based on gross motor skills. After several months, I began to come to his side, and now fully agree with him.

It is my contention, now, that our bodies tend to 'generally' react in certain ways as dictated by certain circumstances. Based on my 'new' understanding, after I read Applegate and then Michael Janich who furthered Applegates findings, I readily agreed and adopted their methods.

I don't feel it's a lazy way to shoot, it is a highly effective and deadly way to shoot within its limitations, within the circle of death. I feel we should allow our bodies to react naturally, not force them. Proper point shooting technique allows the body to just that. When the wet ass hour shows itself, I don't think I'll have time to go to the popular 'set' positions anymore than I feel, now, that I could have effectively gone into my proper Kai Ki Do fighting position.

Further, up to 7, maybe 12 or 15 yards, I would contend that point shooting would serve me quite well. Plus, anything beyond that range, you probably should not be returning fire anyway, as you would have a tough time in court saying you felt in fear of your life.

In conclusion, I would agree that point shooting has its limitations, but then there is only one purpose for point shooting...to go home.

Respectfully...........

[ed grizzle]

Point shooting is avery effective way to shoot during combat. Point shooting is away to create muscle memory based upon gross motor skills so you will always draw and present your weapon the same way every time. But you may not be able to do so during combat. If you ever get in a sitution that requires the use of a firearm your body may not be able to get a perfect sight alignment or picture. This occurs because your stress levels will be elevated (deadly force startle response). You could become binocular dominant along with tunnel vision. Stressing youself on the range by shooting,reloading,seeking cover or concealemnt on the move is great training. So is competining against time or another person. But nothing is like actual combat because if you fail chances are you are dead. Shootings happen spontanously where you dont have time for sight alignment and picture just enough time to fight and live. I agree to learn sight alignment and picture first before attempting to learn point shooting. There are things that biologically and physiologily that will happen to your body during deadly force encounters that you will not be able to overcome. I have talked with police officers who have been involved in shootings some have missed some have not. They all just pointed and shot. Sorry about the long post but being a civilian police officer and reservist military policeman I take this topic very seriously like everyone on this forum.   

[KAVU]

Point shooting should be included in your aimed fire pattern of motion. That way, you use the sights  when you can and have the familiarity to be able to shoot kineseticlly when you can't.

I found this article on the teddy tactical site and thought it was pretty good. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/Feature/2004-06_Feature.htm