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Author Topic: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]  (Read 4308 times)

Professor

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What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« on: October 20, 2004, 05:20:10 AM »

Alright here you go:



No, you are not armed. 

Yes, your hands and feet are free. 

No, you are not seriously injured.

Yes, you are within hiking distance of civilization, but not much closer.
 
Yes, he is big. 

Yes, it is a real gun and his only weapon in sight.   

Yes, he is the only one.   

Yes, he is going to kill you [you think] within the next 10 minutes.


Have fun!


Jeff
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

misshinryu

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2004, 05:50:36 AM »

Jeff,
Is that my Ak-47 in Des Moines?
Mike Steele
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2004, 08:49:19 AM »

I would tell him to knock the front sight off his weapon and put lots of vaseline along the length of the barrel.

He'll look at me quizzically and ask why?

I'll tell him "Because it will hurt a lot less when I shove it up your a**"   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

then I'd go git him.

N

PS: You did say have fun  8)
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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Planetkillr

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2004, 09:48:39 AM »

 :o Well... My first thought would be, "Remember to breath"!! Followed second by, "Ignore the crap running down my leg"!!

I guess the main tactic would be, "Look for a openning". I would, probrably, try to distract him with talk / chatter. Move around as much as possible and look for my chance...My chance at what?? Well...I think that depends on what he does (or gives me). I may end up running my butt off and hoping he can't shoot & is very slow. I may get a chance to attack him. If so, I may try and go after his eyes and control of the gun; hopefully this can be done at the same time to better my chances.

Now, one thing I notice in the picture brings a question to mind. Am I kneeling in front of him or is he standing on higher ground? If I am at his feet, this may afford me the chance at a leg sweep and then run. I may also afford me the chance to leg sweep him and possibly have a go at the gun. Anyway you slice it, I'm going to either go after the gun while using a distraction or attack technique or I'm running. I see that this question leaves alot of room for failure. I hope, if I'm truely faced with this situation, I can maintain myself and not get myself killed.

### Thanks for this question!! I hope this is'nt the last one we are given ####
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2004, 10:29:13 AM »

Jeff,
Is that my Ak-47 in Des Moines?
Mike Steele
'


Yep.  It is. 


----and.... you didn't answer the questions...   ;)
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2004, 10:33:19 AM »



Now, one thing I notice in the picture brings a question to mind. Am I kneeling in front of him or is he standing on higher ground?


Nice Catch!   The goblin is on higher ground and the good guy is kneeling - he is on the railroad track and you're part way down in the ditch so he doesn't have to drag you as far... :-*

Quote

Anyway you slice it, I'm going to either go after the gun while using a distraction or attack technique or I'm running.


Details....Details....   please

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2004, 10:37:24 AM »


then I'd go git him.

You did say have fun  8)





He now got a grin on his face and the finger coming back on the trigger....and now your going to git him....

I'm with you so far....now what    ;)


Have fun!!!
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2004, 10:40:27 AM »

Jeff,
Is that my Ak-47 in Des Moines?
Mike Steele

By the way,  I'm glad to see you on the list Mike!   The forum is already getting a more class since you joined.
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Kevbo

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2004, 12:55:29 PM »

I would tell him he couldn't scare me with that thing,I've been married mutilple times and have faced crooked lawyers ! :D

Just having fun.
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Rawhide

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2004, 09:13:18 PM »

Everyone's having too much fun and not figuring out how to kill this Tango so here goes with a first move.  I decide to:

1) distract him with lots of upper body hand waving and verbal pleading (and igonore anything running down my leg)

2) Since I'm on my knees,  as I hopefully distract his attention I'll slowly inch closer to the weapon on my knees until the barrel is staring me right in the face about a centimeter or so.

3) Then its explosively grab the barrel and prepare to have my hands seared if he gets a shot off (noise is good) and leap into a diving attack, possibly a leg tackle as I wrap the gun and my arms around his legs, my shoulders to his knees.

4) Hopefully he crashes backwards over some tracks and hurts himself and is stunned by the suddenly & violent attack, this also hopefully traps the rifle temporarily under his body, I'm gonna crawl up his no good stinkin' carcass regardless and give him only a few seconds more to see - rip out his eyes stomp his face and throat (aware of whats happening with his rifle).  Take that rifle and but stroke him, shoot him? maybe-  definitely in dear for my life it was to be an execution.

How 'bout that for starters?
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2004, 11:32:47 PM »

I would tell him he couldn't scare me with that thing,I've been married mutilple times and have faced crooked lawyers ! :D

Just having fun.

I'm with you so far.....not scared, married....I understand....

Now what?   Details....Details....   please   ;)
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Planetkillr

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2004, 03:05:09 AM »

"Details....Details....   please"...De_professor.

Ok...Here it goes.

I'd start begging. Cry about my wife & daughter & add some begging & pleading. I'd hold my hands out in front of me in a praying / begging manner. I would inch closer & closer to him and act as if I'm begging at his feet or actually going to kiss his feet. Then, I'd try to add to the situation by swatting a make believe insect somewhere around my butt; the area he would'nt be able to see very well. I'd make a little jump as if biten by something while cursing; also remembering to keep the begging tone in my vioce. Hopefully, this will get him to step to the left or right of me; to better see what was biting me. Once he does (lets say he goes to my right), I cross grab the end of the barrel with my left hand and jam it away from me & into the dirt as I open palm strike the middle (to upper middle) portion of the gun downward with everything I've got with my right hand. Then, as his losing grip drops his head downward. I strike him in the face (hopefully the eyes) with my right; the hand I used to just strike downward. As he tries to jerk himself upright, I grab his pant leg (or actual leg) with my striking right hand; as I maintain my grip & weight on the end of the gun barrel with my left. While holding his pant leg, I turn with my hips and pretend as if I'm trying to punch someone who has come up behind me and put his feet out from under him. If I hav'ent made any mistakes by this point & I'm still alive, I'd then strike his groin and then face with a hammer fist while trying to grip the middle to upper portion of the gun. Then, I'd drive my knee into his ribs and begin digging my right hand fingers into his eyes; quickly switching to hammer striking him if or when he brings his hands up to remove my fingers. While I'm striking him I begin trying to snatch the gun free of his grip, if he has'nt already let go of it. Once I get the gun loose, and toss it a few feet away, I continue my assualt. But, with both hands free I try to strike more perceisely and aim for his eyes, nose & throat as I continue my knee ride of his ribs. At the 1st sign that my attacks are failing to be effective, I'll dis-enguage and pick up the gun. Here's where the condition of the gun comes in. If it looks good, I'll try to shot him. If it looks bad, I'll try to use it as a weapon & club him with it. I'll have to do a quick check of the barrel, as best I can under the circumstances, & see if there is anything lodged in the barrel. Hopefully shooting the weapon will not backfire on me & cause me to lose the dominate position I've fought to gain. If I can, I'll shoot him several times until I'm convinced he is dead.

Afterwards, durning my hike back to civilazation, I'll replay the events as they occurred and come up with "My Version" of what happened. I'll do this so I can explain in a rational manner all the who, what, when, where and whys of the event that took place to the police.

All that I have typed here could & would change at a moments notice if I saw a better openning or that what I had planned would not work for whatever reason.
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Rawhide

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2004, 10:31:37 PM »

I like panetkillr's idea on the post op review of the situation.  SOmething I failed to address.  The next question would be How did I get in the situation the first place??? 

Prof?

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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2004, 12:15:50 AM »

I like panetkillr's idea on the post op review of the situation.  SOmething I failed to address.  The next question would be How did I get in the situation the first place??? 

Prof?




Well, for you, it's a martial arts student (ex marine) that didn't get his masters belt in your system.   :o  Others can make it up... 
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Nick Hughes

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2004, 06:03:56 AM »

Prof,

All joking aside, I would never be in that position.  Most shooters are familiar with the name Evan Marshal.  Evan has written books, articles etc., was largely responsible for the Detroit SWAT team training program, helped in the program with regards to the original air marshals training (in the seventies) and was/is president of the International Association of Law Enforcement Trainers et al.

His theory is, if ever confronted in a hold up situation by an armed gunmen he will comply (assuming he's off duty and carrying concealed) up until the point where they order you on to your knees or face.  It's his experience that very few people survive that because it usually preceeds the execution (kind of like going to the second location for a woman in a self defense situation). 

If so ordered i.e. down, he'll go for broke and go out fighting.  I agree with his attitude completely.  If faced with an armed person that I'm not close enough to get the drop on etc I'll comply up until he says "on your knees" and then I'm going for my weapon (assuming I'm carrying one) or I'm going for him.  (Again, I'm assuming he's suitably impressive enough and caused me to believe that he's willing to kill)  I'd rather die on my feet attempting to get him than on my knees like a dog.

You also have to consider that on your knees you have almost no chance of winning.  So if you get there, then decide to retaliate you've left it way too late.  Do it while you've got at least some slim chance.

Again, I'm assuming this is a situation where the guy isn't just trying to intimidate or take money etc but is as crazy as a bucket of spiders and ready and willing to kill.

With regards to actual specifics, I think most everyone here has hit on them.  Try and distract him by throwing something or screaming as you run at him.  We know from studies with fighter pilot of the OODA loop and by charging him you just might break his and stand a chance, albeit a slim one.

Regards
N

PS:  What would you do? ;)
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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Heath

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2004, 07:09:22 AM »

interesting..since i am always the little guy...

    While i was on my knees, i would look around for anything to use rocks, sticks, pieces of glass..etc.. I would be scared but since he didnt shoot me outright, he must want something..to see fear, to be heard, to show power..and i would gladly go that route to buy me time. I dont know how far away i will assume its mid range from him and the bushes behind me.
  I would take the object and start inching up and fall forward apoligizing while gaining some ground. He would probably tell me to stop and i would..after i gain a little more ground crying, pleading or talking to him and pretending to not hear him. I would then decide to go out fighting and not on my knees. So i would throw the object or keep it if is a stick and get close enough to grab the gun and/or hit the groin while coming upwards. I would thrust the stick in his neck or if i didnt have a stick maybe bite him in the throat or gouge the eyes. If i can do enough damage to take the gun away i would. or after the groin attack i can pull the pants up near the crotch to get him off balance a little and throw him to the ground and then the throat and eye attack. I would strike and bite and gouge until i can take control of the situation...my life or yours..i will choose yours...
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Kentbob

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2004, 11:42:30 AM »

Alright here you go:



No, you are not armed. 

Yes, your hands and feet are free. 

No, you are not seriously injured.

Yes, you are within hiking distance of civilization, but not much closer.
 
Yes, he is big. 

Yes, it is a real gun and his only weapon in sight.   

Yes, he is the only one.   

Yes, he is going to kill you [you think] within the next 10 minutes.


Have fun!


Jeff

I sincerely hope that is not an actual firearm pointed at the other person in the picture, if so, for SHAME!  As self-defense practitioners, and, I use the term loosely, "martial artists", we are always supposed to remember safety.  Don't you dare say that the weapon is unloaded, either, because that is how accidents always start.  "Don't worry, its not loaded."  Next thing you know, Blam!  You should always follow the four basic rules of firearms safety, and I believe Hock teaches these in his courses, if memory serves me correctly.

All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target and you have decided to shoot.
Be sure of your target as well as the surroundings and beyond

On the other hand, iff'n that is not a real weapon, well, good. I looks like an interesting scenario, and I would have to have the appropriate equipment to play with it properly.
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2004, 11:17:26 PM »

Prof,

All joking aside, I would never be in that position. 



and I agree with not getting there, you are there....thus the scenerio. 

Here you go:  The way you got there.....he snuck up on you, knocked you out....put you in the back of a truck (with a fork lift I'm sure) and carried you to the location....you awoke and sat up into that position....now what.



Quote

PS:  What would you do? ;)



That's me in the picture....needless to say, I did the right thing and got away......



Having fun of course..... ;)


Don't have time at the moment.....I'll try later.
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

devil dog

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2004, 04:39:39 AM »

Hello Proff.

Speed and violence of action, it is basically an ambush surprise situation.  You took too long to load your weapon and got caught.(My scenario)

Assuming he will close one eye and get a proper cheek-weld, dive head-first and arms straight for the weapon.  As we all know, one moves faster forward (a la Fidel), than side to side or back.
Also move to the left, for he is right handed and will have difficulty in turning left.

Verbal pleadings will not help at this point.  He is committed to kill me, and after the initial hole-in-the-gut sensation and sick sweat one has to act. Act with force, speed and violence of action.  What you do is not as important as the fact that you ruin his plan.

We must always practice the scenario in our heads. I normally dont post here, but I have seen this before.

Thanks
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devil dog

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2004, 05:12:41 AM »

Prof,

We get paired in four groups of two.  Each person rolls a newspaper or a SOFT magazine and holds it in the center, like a baton relay in Track and Field.  As we use the impromptu knife in the exercises, they tear and get soft.  The more precise fighter obviously holds the advantage longer.

Variations such as; two in a room for thirty seconds and switch. ("Laredo whorehouse") or, back to back take seven steps and turn at each other.("Home again after the whorehouse").

Imagination is the only limit, but we cap the time to no more than thirty seconds per encounter unless its "King of the Hill".  (Outdoors with a drawn circle about 12'-20' in diameter), if you step outside you do 30 push ups before coming back in.  It is in no way a penalty to step outside, but it does simulate some fatigue.

Thank you

                         
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devil dog

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2004, 10:54:45 PM »

seven steps is the outside measurement, the purpose of the soft magazine is for the fight to deteriorate rapidly. (2nd law of thermodynamics-right Dan?)

Enrique
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2004, 01:12:38 AM »


I sincerely hope that is not an actual firearm pointed at the other person in the picture, if so, for SHAME!  As self-defense practitioners, and, I use the term loosely, "martial artists", we are always supposed to remember safety.  Don't you dare say that the weapon is unloaded, either, because that is how accidents always start.  "Don't worry, its not loaded."  Next thing you know, Blam! 



I'm sure I should say thanks for the lecture . . .    :-\

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Heath

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2004, 12:51:19 PM »

is this a contest prof?? tell us who is closer to your idea of how YOU would get out of it.....
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2004, 07:13:21 AM »

is this a contest prof?? tell us who is closer to your idea of how YOU would get out of it.....


Nope.  Not a contest . . .

I teach inching....many members talked about this same point and there are a number of good examples. 

We often talk about sniper distance, but in a different aspect.   If they are far enough away that we can't reach them....it's really doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 100 yards. 

Our job is close the sniper distance....the distance from the weapon to you.   If there's any distance we have to cover it to be able to do anything.  This is the basic premise that everyone has covered in their physical response to this scenerio.   The verbal pleading, confrontation, etc really just help us get to a point that we can close the distance.

The difficulty is that this situation is a worst-case scenerio.  You have been removed from the original crime scene and take to the second crime scene.    This proves to be the most dangerous situation for a victim.   

Hell, I don't know who's the closest my solution.  I made up my mind with a backstory in mind for me.   This was part of a picture series for a kidnapping article....not necessarily for scenerio training...but, with the skilled individual that we have in this forum, there are a lot of interesting solutions.   

My thoughts: It's a time for explosive movement.   Luckily, we only have to deal with a weapon with a linear "laser" that can kill us.  First, move my body parts out of the line of the laser (i.e., bullets).   Second work on the ankles/knees/hips to collapse his balance.  Third, destory his ability to kill me.  Fourth, escape.   

There is a video that came out of the soccer field in Iraq where people were being executed with an AK.   Basically, the exectioner walked toward the person (from the sided) and shot them while they were still out of range (1 - 2 meters) - thus the victim was unable to do anything.   This is the freightening scenerio.
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

devil dog

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2004, 07:21:33 PM »

Prof,

Hopefully assailant will not immobilize or daze victim with a swift butt-stroke before execution. That would incapacitate swift and decisive reaction.

2 cents.
E.
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Professor

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2004, 08:51:17 PM »

Prof,

Hopefully assailant will not immobilize or daze victim with a swift butt-stroke before execution. That would incapacitate swift and decisive reaction.

2 cents.
E.

I agree.   But, If you are looking for an escape, the weapon isn't pointing at you and you've closed the distance.....

This is a horrible scenerio - there's not a nice solution and a lot of bad things can happen....and the goblin has the advantage.
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Hock

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Re: What do you do now? [a scenerio for you to work on]
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2007, 07:10:32 AM »

Great one from yesteryear to review...

Hock
 

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