Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • September 25, 2018, 11:47:59 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS  (Read 11554 times)

Alex

  • Guest
TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« on: September 16, 2004, 06:10:28 AM »

Again, i disclaim if anyone follows this course of action; this isn't for everyone nor do I advocate it to anyone.  It's potentially dangerous even under controlled circumstances.  Normally, we'll do some of this with the hubud drills, grab weapon bearing limb drills, etc.  On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the fastest, we go at .5 to 3.  It's strictly for a reality check just so I don't get complacent with plastic or aluminum weapons.

Also, this is based on  personal research (as the development of any personal protection program should be)and several experiences; I live in a city ranked 3rd highest in Canada for edged weapon attacks:  about 1300/100,000 persons(there's only 120,000 or so here). 

Again, definitely not for everyone. 

Hopefully this'll make for an interesting discussion topic.

thanks all, and be safe out there! :)
Logged

Joe Hubbard

  • London, England
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 994
  • Transforming the Esoteric with the Exoteric!
    • www.functionalfighting.com
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2004, 07:22:27 AM »

Hmmmm, training with live blades, we are getting controversial!  Personally I have never understood the mentality of those who train with real knives other than in a solo, command & mastery context either in the air or against trees.  Please understand that this is nothing personal to anybody who does, but if you were to train with real sharp-edged cold steel blades and do it right, you had better have paramedic units standing by.  That’s taking “student retention” to a completely new level.  I mean it is just too dangerous!  With the right intent in your scenario training, you do not need to train with a real knife.  I do agree that with some newbies it’s good to show them a real blade now and again, but live knife training would be the equivalent to training gun partner drills with real bullets.  I also believe that it would actually impair your killer instinct if you really had to use a knife to save your life!

Let’s all be careful out there

Joe     
Logged
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side"

Hunter S. Thompson

www.joehubbardstreetsurvival.com

Visit My Blog: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2004, 10:08:36 AM »

Hmmmm, training with live blades, we are getting controversial!  Personally I have never understood the mentality of those who train with real knives other than in a solo, command & mastery context either in the air or against trees.  Please understand that this is nothing personal to anybody who does, but if you were to train with real sharp-edged cold steel blades and do it right, you had better have paramedic units standing by.  That’s taking “student retention” to a completely new level.  I mean it is just too dangerous!  With the right intent in your scenario training, you do not need to train with a real knife.  I do agree that with some newbies it’s good to show them a real blade now and again, but live knife training would be the equivalent to training gun partner drills with real bullets.  I also believe that it would actually impair your killer instinct if you really had to use a knife to save your life!

Let’s all be careful out there

Joe     


Alex,

I was waiting for you to start this one....

I thought when I started that live blades were the ultimate level of blade training.   Several experiences through the years have changed my mind.  I try to tell a couple of them with characters that you know...

First, Barnhart:

For a few years, when Hock had weekly classes in Lewisville, we trained about 90% of the time with knives.  This was about a year after the "knife congress" got off the ground.   We had been working scissor slaps with the knife and it had been working great...imagine the goblin with the knife to your face and you slap the wrist one way and the knife blade the other...  Tom and I had worked on it (demonstrating to a class one week, I was absent the next) when I come back Tom has a huge bandage across three/four fingers.  I of course asked what the hell happened to you...and Tom proceeded to tell me:  "I was demonstrating [yada, yada, yada] and the first time it worked GREAT - the knife (real) stuck in the floor.   The second time, it didn't work as well. The third time, the uke was ready and turned the (real) knife so it wouldn't hurt so bad.

Tom was out of it for 4 weeks and could have easily lost the nerves in his right hand.   I laughed my ass off until tear started.

Another: I was told that you could catch a bolo blade with you hand gripping the blade with your hand (yes, you can) - It's really, really cool.  I trained for a long time, I tried, I came away drawing a live one through my palm....luckily it was a not scarring wound across my palm.

Another:  I've played and trained with live butterfly knives....the worst:  I stuck the blade tip in my big toe nail while trying to throw it behind my back with my left hand and catching it over my right shoulder...  John John could do it....I thought I could too.   I have scars on both hands from closing the sharp live blade on my fingers.

Another:  Hock and I were in Virginia giving a seminar and wanted to demonstrate with a real knife doing passing drills -  I pulled out my fake Spyderco Endura with a dull blade, but it looked real.....  [yada, yada, yada]    We started moving faster, and faster (Hock made a mistake  ;)) and I stabbed the dull blade into is forearm (I felt it pull through the muscle tendon and hit the bone).    He bled on both of us as we finished, we pulled out the first aid kit and tied it up.   A real knife, and I would have ripped him from the beginning of his forearm to his elbow.   This incident may have officially end it for both Hock and I using live blade in a training situation.  Both of us are very versed with knives, comfortable with working with each other....but accidents happen....

I absolutely love bladed weapons, I liked training with live blades, but the results can be devastating and career or life ending...I have stopped doing it.  The liability is not worth it, and my family needs me functional . . . It's just not worth it to me (my hobby).


my .02,

Jeff






Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Trembula

  • Guest
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2004, 10:56:42 AM »

Given the results of even the smallest mistake when training with live blades (cut/stab at best, crippled/fatal at worst), I think partner training with them is Stupid with a capital "S". The thought of having a few fingers lopped off, nerves severed, "pretty" scars, and all manner of other injuries is simply not appealing to me. Bruises, okay...bleeding, bad.

Live blade solo training is another matter altogether. Hopefully one is coordinated to avoid hurting oneself. Unless you actually cut, stab, and manipulate your actual carry blades, you will never know how they perform. Even the factory produced "trainers" for deployment drills et al are balanced ever so slightly different and you can't practice on cutting dummies with them. I will admit that when I do live blade drills integrating my live hand, I like to wear a leather work glove on my empty hand and a long sleeve shirt or  jacket just in case I am a little "off" - hasn't happened yet, but the last thing I need is to give myself a career ending injury.
Logged

Joe Hubbard

  • London, England
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 994
  • Transforming the Esoteric with the Exoteric!
    • www.functionalfighting.com
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2004, 07:15:55 PM »

I think that it is important to point out that any solo, command & mastery drills with a live blade (i.e. shadow fighting and/or tree cutting) is an advanced drill.  Spend many years with an aluminium trainer before trying this.  When you start to feel confident about using a real blade, wear a pair leather wrist cuffs that window installers wear.  Also wear eye protection, I realised this the hard way when I first started hacking trees with my Kurki knife.

Peace Through Greater Fire Power!

Joe
Logged
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side"

Hunter S. Thompson

www.joehubbardstreetsurvival.com

Visit My Blog: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2004, 12:00:29 AM »

I think that it is important to point out that any solo, command & mastery drills with a live blade (i.e. shadow fighting and/or tree cutting) is an advanced drill.  Spend many years with an aluminium trainer before trying this.  When you start to feel confident about using a real blade, wear a pair leather wrist cuffs that window installers wear.  Also wear eye protection, I realised this the hard way when I first started hacking trees with my Kurki knife.

Peace Through Greater Fire Power!

Joe



If you're against it in partner training....it would make sense to argue in solo training..... ???
Take you favorite knife and dull the edge a little.  If you notice the difference you are a one cool cat.
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Alex

  • Guest
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2004, 05:03:32 AM »

Joe/Jeff/Trembula;   thanks very much for the perspectives! ;D 

Joe:  Training with live ammo :o...hahah, no I won't try it.  But I am interested in what you say here:
[i]I also believe that it would actually impair your killer instinct if you really had to use a knife to save your life[/i]!  I often wonder about this myself; all this training with dummy blades and sometimes slipping into complacent drilling...I wonder if I have it if and when I need it.  Somewhat of a philosophical question here, but probably the most important of all.

Jeff:  lots of battle scars there!  I appreciate the examples as I've had several of my own..some scarring though, but still full use of all extremities :D.  It's great to hear about the early starts to the Congress as well. That butterfly knife......... :'( d-OH!  What's the reaction to live blade training in the Philipines?  is it done at all?

Trembula:  Stoopid with a capital S....I know, I know...I just can't help myself :-\  Great idea of the glove/long sleeves on the live hand.  I've nicked myself a few times with an Applegate/Fairbairn folder while doing "Any slash - Any Punch" drills.....definitely not fun.

many, many thanks folks!
Logged

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2004, 06:29:12 AM »


Jeff:  lots of battle scars there!  I appreciate the examples as I've had several of my own..some scarring though, but still full use of all extremities :D.  It's great to hear about the early starts to the Congress as well. That butterfly knife......... :'( d-OH!  What's the reaction to live blade training in the Philipines?  is it done at all?

Scars:  It's not the ages, it's the milage.    ;D

In FMA, many will suggest that you have 8-10 years of experience before training with live blades and then only slowly.  Most of the time, if pushed, you will find that the people that work with live blades will not have RAZOR sharp blades - A health respect for the pain is good, dismemberment and death isn't .  You will find training strories with live blades, but it typically goes:

New(er) student has live blade, teacher has a dull training instrument....Teacher:  see if you can hit me..... student can't hit teacher, teacher teaches student, student becomes a master.   Student writes the story that they had a great teacher with great skill.


Jeff

Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

chfroehlich

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2004, 04:25:43 PM »

Hello to everybody from Germany,

practicing the FMA's for several years I was introduced to training with live blades by my Lameco Instructor. This took several years of formal training as well as private instruction. We use the live blades for quickdraw-scenarios (standing face to face at a distance no one is touching the other, anyone chooses to start first), for Solo Command and Mastery drills and drills like disarming-flows (50-70 % of the "normal" speed). What is always enjoyed by our basic students are cutting tests (against cardboard, a roll of carpet, etc.) as well as quickdraws and then doing slashes or stabs against the same devices

From my point of view it heigthens your senses and awareness espaecially in the Disarming-Flows to a level you couldn't imagine before. Your moves get quicker your footwork is faster. I think that it should be a must for all advanced students. But our students are not forced to do it.

But as some mentioned it, you have to trust your partner and his abilities to a special grade.

Just my 0.02 $

Christof

Logged
A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

-- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2004, 01:31:14 AM »

Hello to everybody from Germany,

practicing the FMA's for several years I was introduced to training with live blades by my Lameco Instructor. This took several years of formal training as well as private instruction. We use the live blades for quickdraw-scenarios (standing face to face at a distance no one is touching the other, anyone chooses to start first), for Solo Command and Mastery drills and drills like disarming-flows (50-70 % of the "normal" speed). What is always enjoyed by our basic students are cutting tests (against cardboard, a roll of carpet, etc.) as well as quickdraws and then doing slashes or stabs against the same devices

From my point of view it heigthens your senses and awareness espaecially in the Disarming-Flows to a level you couldn't imagine before. Your moves get quicker your footwork is faster. I think that it should be a must for all advanced students. But our students are not forced to do it.

But as some mentioned it, you have to trust your partner and his abilities to a special grade.

Just my 0.02 $

Christof




Welcome to the board!
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

bking

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2004, 10:38:32 AM »

Interesting that the mindset with live knife partner training is more about trusting your partner or being careful not to hurt your partner.  Of course we don't want to hurt our partner in dummy knife training either, but the mindset and aggression can get a lot closer and a lot deeper to where it needs to be most exercised.   

But I would have to admit that some individuals train with the dummy knife with the wrong mindset.  They joke, talk, and laugh excessively with their partner.  Such minds tend to be somewhat weak lacking discipline and the ability to project the mind into proper do or die rehearsal.  Not saying that such training should be void of all humor concerning training bloopers or just letting the mind chill with some fun.   

As far as a reality check, most individuals do not need to experiment with fire now and then to keep from becoming too casual with its powerful capabilities.

Bryan
Logged

kamagong

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 170
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2004, 08:27:23 AM »

Hi guys!  Just thought I would put my $0.02 in too for what it's worth.  

We have often worked disarms with live blades, and I have gotten small cuts on my palm from time to time.  We are generally careful, but as Guro Allen basically stated, things happen.  We taught a bunch of prison guards one time, and I did a disarm at a pretty good speed, because there is always one in the crowd that says you can't do that.  You should have heard the oo's and ahh's I got.  

It wasn't till afterward that I realized how bad I could have gotten hurt!
Logged
A life lived without a few scars is a wasted life.

Lance_Larsen

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2004, 02:13:51 AM »

I have a couple thoughts on the subject.  Let's start with why you might want to do such a thing.  I've been reading "Deep Survival - Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why" by Laurence Gonzales, and I thought there were some excellent points in the book.  For the purposes of structuring a coherent argument, let me quote a section of this book:

  "When you learn something complex, such as flying, snowboarding, or playing tennis or golf, at first you must think through each move.  That is called explicit learning, and it's stored in explicit memory, the kind you can talk about, the kind that allows you to remember a recipe for lasagna.  But as you gain more experience, you begin to do the task less consciously.  You develop flow, touch, timing--a feel [emphasis added] for it.  It becomes second nature, a thing of beauty.  That's known as implicit learning.  The two neurological systems of explicit and implicit learning are quite seperate.  Implicit memories are unconscious.  Implicit learning is like a natural smile; It comes by way of a differnt neural pathway from the one that carries explicit memory."

He goes on to say that:

  "Implicit memories are not stored in or necessarily even available to the analytical, reasoning part of the brain."

He also states that you teach the implicit memory differently than the explicit memory.  To teach the explicit memory you speak and make arguments and use logic.  But to speak to the implicit memory you have to change how the information is delivered.

So what does all this psycho-babble mean?  When we train, we can not neglect the non-logical part of the brain.  We can explain techniques logically all we want, but your logical (or explicit) mind does not have the processing horsepower to step through a logical argument and look up facts and apply them fast enough to stop an oncoming attack.  Only your implicit memory can work that fast.  This is why we do training drills.  We do them until we stop analyzing every movement, and then just start to "feel" when the movements are right.

We are used to the time tested method of reaching the implicit memory--time consuming repetition.  But we can make a training shortcut right to this part of the brain.  Just as we can simulate firearms (Simmunition, MILES, Airsoft, etc.) we can also simulate edged weapons.  As instructors, we want direct access to the implicit mind and we want to teach it quickly, yet we do not want to cause any serious and long lasting injuries.  So why not include practicing with a stun gun?  You will get a very immediate reaction of fear (followed by pain if a mistake is made), but you will not get a serious and long lasting injury.  Once shocked, people will instinctively move out of the path of the "blade".  This shows that learning by the implicit part of the brain is in progress.  If you get zapped just once you will NOT want to get zapped again.  After being shocked a person will go to great lengths to stay out of the way of the electricity.  Will they use proper technique every time to keep from getting shocked?  No!  And I don't care!  I simply want them to learn to keep the weapon stabilized and the "point" (in this case electrical probes) away from their body.  I'm less concerned with how they do this than I am the fact that they can manage to do it at all.

All of the blocks and responses we have for edged weapons work against broken bottles, sticks, knives, even empty hands.  So why not against stun guns?  I have a novelty shocking pen that I have handed to people.  They try to write with it and get shocked.  I pick it up and thrust it at their chest, which in reality would not even cause them to be shocked, yet they jump out of the way like they expect to be electrocuted.  They only need to be shocked once to get the benefit of the learned behavior.

The point is not to shock someone over and over.  The point is to speak directly to the implicit mind and say "Stop this attack or you are going to get hurt!"  Once is enough.  All you need to do is cause pain one time, and from then on people will get out of the way of danger without even thinking about it.

I realize this is a bit of a radical view, and that it is difficult to fully explain to a class why it is that you want to do something crazy like train against a stun gun.  But I think the method has some merit.

The same goes for firearms training.  I do firearm disarms against live, high power Airsoft guns.  If I make a mistake I get hit and it hurts like hell (always have everyone wear a face mask).  It is as real a simulation as we can ever get.  The Airsoft BB goes in the same trajectory as a real bullet.  It's easy enough to determine what would have happened with a real firearm.

Frankly, I would like to see the development of a stun gun shaped like a knife where the "edge" was electified.  I think this would make an excellent training tool.

I've used the stun gun method on some willing students and have gotten excellent results.  You can't just throw them into the deep end.  You start with all the same basic blocks you always teach.  Then you say "OK, I think you have it, let's test you and make sure."  They may get shocked once if they make a mistake, but I do not set out to harm them.  I give them a fighting chance, and if a probe hits them, whether or not it is electrified, they will act as if it is and get out of the way.  If you can keep from getting shocked then you can certainly keep from getting stabbed.  It is simply amazing how immediate the response to this training is.

This is still a rather new area for me, and so far it seems to work quite well.  I'd like to hear from anyone else who tries it.

Good luck.
Logged
Don't take me too seriously, I enjoy a good debate.  And sometimes I'm just plain wrong.  SOMETIMES.  :)

Joe Hubbard

  • London, England
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 994
  • Transforming the Esoteric with the Exoteric!
    • www.functionalfighting.com
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2004, 07:38:04 AM »

Lance

Interesting post.  I am going to try to track that book down for sure.  Although most of what you are saying I agree with, I feel it’s important to point out something here- we cannot completely replicate a street fight.  Even in force-on-force simulation drills (notice the use of the word “drills”) students very quickly realise that they won’t be killed after they become de-sensitised to the event.  The purpose of these drills are to allow the student to “experience” a synthetic assault to manifest the adrenalin dump and stress, so they can “pressure test” their responses and reactions to find out what really works.   This is why I only recommend that my students take part in FOF training about once every eight weeks.  In all these types of “alive training drills”, because of the padding involved, there has to be a major debriefing by a coach to point out what exactly happened.  I mean when you train air soft, people quickly wear helmets, gloves, kneepads, groin guards and long sleeve sweatshirts.  Half the time people aren’t feeling every shot.  We train with gas guns (semi and fully auto) and most of the time unless you are extremely unlucky, you don’t really feel much.  The shocking knife would probably break under the pressure of the drill (I know my air soft gun has broken about six times now in the last six months).  I think you would be better off using the marker knives under Killshot rules or just plain “attrition” rules, have a coach and spend quality time debriefing.  If you have a portable video camera- use it for reference.  Leading up to this type of FOF training, make sure your students are developing the proper “intent” behind using their knives and defending against a knife in slow controlled Option Awareness Combat Scenarios.

Keep up all the great research

Joe

P.S.  For further explanation on this force-on-force issue, read Ralph Mroz’s article called, “Validating Technique Through Force-On-Force Training: A Bad Idea! in issue #1 of The Hochheim Group Report.   
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 07:41:25 AM by Joe Hubbard »
Logged
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.  There's also a negative side"

Hunter S. Thompson

www.joehubbardstreetsurvival.com

Visit My Blog: http://joehubbard.wordpress.com

Lance_Larsen

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2004, 11:38:15 PM »

I feel it’s important to point out something here- we cannot completely replicate a street fight.

I agree completely, but that should not stop us from attempting to simulate one as closely as possible, as long as we can avoid serious injuries.  The military can't completely replicate war, but with some MILES equipment and a few pyrotechnical effects we can simulate one fairly well.  I think it is important to take people as close to the edge as possible without actually falling in.

I mean when you train air soft, people quickly wear helmets, gloves, kneepads, groin guards and long sleeve sweatshirts.  Half the time people aren’t feeling every shot.  We train with gas guns (semi and fully auto) and most of the time unless you are extremely unlucky, you don’t really feel much.

We only wear paintball masks.  We want to keep BB's out of the eyes and keep them from breaking teeth.  Other than that everything else is fair game.

The shocking knife would probably break under the pressure of the drill (I know my air soft gun has broken about six times now in the last six months).

It's not a perfect idea.  But if you go through a stun gun every week it's still cheaper than one visit to the ER from using a real knife.  What we have now isn't perfect, but I'm hoping someone takes the initiative and develops something with a bit more durability.

I've been using a KSC Glock 26 with an aluminum slide for all manner of drills for quite some time now.  It seems to be fairly durable.  I wouldn't even consider using a plastic slide.  What part of the gun is breaking?

The fact that the tools are not lasting just means we need to develop better tools.

I think you would be better off using the marker knives under Killshot rules or just plain “attrition” rules, have a coach and spend quality time debriefing.  If you have a portable video camera- use it for reference.  Leading up to this type of FOF training, make sure your students are developing the proper “intent” behind using their knives and defending against a knife in slow controlled Option Awareness Combat Scenarios.

While I won't argue that this has some use, a marker knife just is not going to reach the part of the brain we want to reach.  We want to get right to the implicit mind.  Showing someone where they got marked is fine logically, but when you use logic you are only talking to the explicit mind.


Keep up all the great research

Thanks!  Sometimes I feel like I'm kind of way off in left field with some of my ideas, but I guess that's the only way I can learn and come up with improvements.


P.S.  When you read this book, make sure you have a highlighter handy!  There is lots of good stuff in it.  I read it once, then went back and read the highlighted parts again.

-Lance
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 11:41:15 PM by Lance_Larsen »
Logged
Don't take me too seriously, I enjoy a good debate.  And sometimes I'm just plain wrong.  SOMETIMES.  :)

mleone

  • Guest
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 10:12:10 AM »

Forget training with live blades. A rubber Brittish Commando blade like this one
http://www.iisports.com/assets/images/product/iispaintball/Large_Photos/WO5200A-H0.jpg

Get some white t-shirts and some lipstick and simulate the cuts! That simple. If you want to get cut simulate it. You have to remember when your cut due to adrenaline your body gives off cortisol. Read up you might find some interesting facts.

I understand that the blade would be realistic if we reacted as if it were real. So I dont debase that. How ever think of the risk you run with your students.
Logged

DFischer

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2005, 04:00:14 AM »

I'm new to the board and was reading past articles. This article was interesting to me because I had seen a situation first hand. I was in the Army (Infantry) and we were called to Panama. While were at the airport in formation my buddy Eric who was from Chicago  had Kung Fu experience. Eric and I would work out together and always seem to talk martial arts. Someone in formation heard us talking and asked Eric if he could defend himself from a knife. Eric said, "No Problem." Well this guy took out his bayonet and told Erik to defend himself. The guy attacked with the Angle 2 slash and Eric tried a Knife hand block and missed. The guy ended up slicing Eric's wrist. It did not seem bad and Eric was bleeding little, he laughed and went to the medic with his pride broken. I finally seen Eric  when he arrived in panama on light duty and asked if he was ok. He said he could not believe a little slice like that did so much damage. He lost movement in his lower fingers, and the doctor said it was perminate. So I personally believe training is training and you do the best you can and make all the mistakes you can and learn from them while training therefore if something real does present itself, hopefully as little mistakes are made as possible.
Logged

Curran

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Basic Instructor Level
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2005, 05:20:50 AM »


Dont tellme there are nutters out there who train with real blades ?

Hmmm maybe I should start a post "Training with real guns and live ammunition and see what responses I get  :)


Again, i disclaim if anyone follows this course of action; this isn't for everyone nor do I advocate it to anyone.  It's potentially dangerous even under controlled circumstances.  Normally, we'll do some of this with the hubud drills, grab weapon bearing limb drills, etc.  On a scale of 1-10, 10 being the fastest, we go at .5 to 3.  It's strictly for a reality check just so I don't get complacent with plastic or aluminum weapons.

Also, this is based on  personal research (as the development of any personal protection program should be)and several experiences; I live in a city ranked 3rd highest in Canada for edged weapon attacks:  about 1300/100,000 persons(there's only 120,000 or so here). 

Again, definitely not for everyone. 

Hopefully this'll make for an interesting discussion topic.

thanks all, and be safe out there! :)
Logged

DFischer

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 12:36:21 AM »

Opps, after reading my post, I do not think I was clear at the end. I do not believe in training with real blades.
Logged

Chuck Burnett

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 36
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2005, 10:04:41 AM »

I built a prototype stun/training knife a year or so back. It was definitely an interesting motivator to develop elusive movement and a quick"live" hand.

Fell apart quickly as it was just a cheap stun gun cobbled together with two pieces of 14 gauge stranded wire running parallel up the edge of a foam "blade".

I'll see if I can put one together for the Vegas weekend.

Stun guns are great for enlightening grapplers about the dangers of concealed weapons in ground fighting. ;D

Chuck
Logged

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2005, 11:52:50 AM »

I built a prototype stun/training knife a year or so back. It was definitely an interesting motivator to develop elusive movement and a quick"live" hand.

Fell apart quickly as it was just a cheap stun gun cobbled together with two pieces of 14 gauge stranded wire running parallel up the edge of a foam "blade".

I'll see if I can put one together for the Vegas weekend.

Stun guns are great for enlightening grapplers about the dangers of concealed weapons in ground fighting. ;D

Chuck



Chuck!!!!!!   Now that's entertainment!!!!
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

seanross

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 160
    • Sean's Home Page
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2005, 05:08:07 AM »

Looking down at the top of my left hand, I have 8 small scars.  On the top of my right hand, I have three small scars.  Most of these are in the V made by thumb and forefinger.  A few years before I met Hock, I replaced all my chrome kungfu weapons with sharp ones.  Aside from the cuts in my hands made with knives, I nearly hamstrung myself once imitating a cool "show" move with a sharp chinese "gim" sword. I also nearly cut off an ear once with a chinese broadsword.

I continue to do solo command and mastery with sharp weapons-knives, swords and spear.  I haven't cut myself in over two years!  That doesn't mean I won't cut myself next week.

If it took me 5 years of solo work to stop cutting myself with sharp knives and swords, I wouldn't expect it to take much less time throwing in the chaos of a partner.  I think I like the lipstick idea best.
Logged
"Do not imitate the ancient masters.  Seek what they sought!"

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2005, 05:24:51 AM »

While living in the mountains of Georgia I had the luxury of several wooden "war Posts" that I built. You will see them on some of my DVDs. I would walk out to
them and beat them with real knives and sticks fpr a workout.

I learned to carry a towel with me because the knife would sometimes chip and bouce off the wooden arm and torso of the posts or my free hand would barely slip in the way of the knife. Nothing serious, but that towel was handy. I always adocate bringing a towel when you do such things.

Now I live in suburbia and noise generated into the neighborhood by whacking those posts would be..well...criminal. I try to dream up some substitutes...working on it.

"The old tale is...it is not your knife until you have bled on it," menaing that you have used it so, so much and in some many ways, an acident or two has happened.

Absolutly nothing replaces hitting a war post with a real knife. I would say it some of the most important training I have ever done.

There was an old tale years back that when a ghurka drew his kukri, legend has it he cannot resheath it until it had "caused some bleeding/ had been bled on."

Through the years I have met some British commanders who were unit officers in charge of Gurka units- you may recall Major Corrigan (ret) who wrote for our CQC Magazine?) They told me this was nonsense. The Ghurkas were using their knives for all kind of everyday tasks, collecting firewood, or whatever.

Hock

Chris Roberts

  • London, England
  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2005, 04:59:30 AM »

A sad example of live-blade training........ from BBC news today...

"A police officer has been arrested on suspicion of murder after his son died from a stab wound to the heart.
Conor Johnson, 11, died in hospital after suffering the fatal injury at his home in Norfolk Road, Littlehampton, West Sussex, on Saturday night.

His father Ian, 39, a constable with Sussex Police, was arrested and bailed until 11 September.

It is believed he was teaching his son martial arts. Police are investigating if the death was crime or an accident.

Friends of the family said Mr Johnson was a decent man who adored his son. "

I hope I never have to go through the same grief the father is going through at the moment, but if this was indeed a training accident I would like know what the hell was going through his head when 'training' his son with a live blade........
Logged

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2005, 06:57:11 AM »

A sad example of live-blade training........ from BBC news today...

"A police officer has been arrested on suspicion of murder after his son died from a stab wound to the heart.
Conor Johnson, 11, died in hospital after suffering the fatal injury at his home in Norfolk Road, Littlehampton, West Sussex, on Saturday night.

His father Ian, 39, a constable with Sussex Police, was arrested and bailed until 11 September.

It is believed he was teaching his son martial arts. Police are investigating if the death was crime or an accident.

Friends of the family said Mr Johnson was a decent man who adored his son. "

I hope I never have to go through the same grief the father is going through at the moment, but if this was indeed a training accident I would like know what the hell was going through his head when 'training' his son with a live blade........



Wow.   I feel his grief.....
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

seanross

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 160
    • Sean's Home Page
Re: TRAINING WITH REAL EDGED WEAPONS
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2005, 01:14:56 PM »

Today, I had my guys over at my house for some training.  After doing circuits on heavy bag, uppercut bag, speed bag, weapons dummy and ground heavy bag, we reviewed some of the pistol disarms from the Albuquerque seminar last week.  Then... :D we brought out the zucchini and apples!

No, we didn't have a weird snack.  The zucchini was courtesy of an overabundant plant and the apples came from my neighbors tree.  We played catch with the zucchini with a guy in the middle with a knife.  The zucchini were aimed at the knife holders head.  As he dodged the zucchini, he slashed out with his knife and tried to cut the zucchini mid flight.  Good fun.  Good training.  Good use of zucchini.  Then we got out the apples and threw them at each other and tried to catch the apples with the point of the blade to practice tip control.  For me, the high point was trying out one of my guys tomahawks on the zucchini!  8)
Logged
"Do not imitate the ancient masters.  Seek what they sought!"
 

Download