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[Hock]

Check out the new video clip on our download page.
This one where the a kicker breaks his leg in two...
Pretty educational and shocking...

http://www.hockscqc.com/articledownloads/index.htm

It is in the martial arts category.
Keep a barf bag handy!

Hock

[tlouis]

I have had people tell me of seeing legs shatter like this before. Maybe the traditional MA kicks making contact wiht the ball of the foot are right on. I know of one SD instructor who really lambasts using the Thai style shin strikes because of this.

[Hock]

"...maybe MA kicks making contact with the ball of the foot are right on."

I wonder...

What kind of regular shoe allows for the ball to be positioned first?

Can you do a power round kick that lands with the ball of the foot?

And one big picture view...statisically, how many leg-to-leg kicks are there in hardcore NHB, UFC fights that this ler break never happens...99.9% never happens...?

Do we change 99.9% success for .01% failure?

Hock

[seanross]

That kick looked like the impact point was the lower part of the shin, not the top of the foot.  It looks like the lower part of the kickers shin, just above the ankle, contacted with the combined shin and tibula on the side of the kickee's leg, just below the calf.  The kick didn't even look particularly killer, just a normal medium-low round kick. 

I suspect some kind weak bones here.  If you take two pieces of hickory and smack them together hard, one doesn't break and the other stay whole.  If you take a piece of pine and smack it against hickory, the pine breaks.  That wasn't a green-stick fracture.  His foot was off at a large angle - it was a clean break.  My guess is that the kicker had low bone density.  Given that he likely worked out a lot, low bone density wouldn't have been due to lack of weight-bearning conditioning, but it could have been due to poor nutrition.  High stress tends to use up minerals for all the nervous activity.  Perhaps the guy was burning the candle at both ends. 

If you plan on using your shin or forearm as a "lead pipe", it pays to take your minerals and condition your shins by impacting hard surfaces.  This helps build up a pad over the bone so it doesn't hurt, but it also tells your body to put lots of calcium in those bones. 

[Trembula]

Well, with stout, well made steel toe boots you can deliver a pretty amazing kick with the toes without mangling your foot or ankle. Combat boots and sneakers don't typically let you do that though.

Speaking of which, I need to get some better footware... most of the boots I have now won't let me do that.

Dan

[tlouis]

Regarding kicking with the ball of the foot, more power can actually be generated bcause the force is being distributed over a smaller area. If you have shoes with a rigged toe, all the better. Your contact will be the toe. so what? Lets ay you are wearing gym shoes. Go to doorway and do a shin kick to the jam. Then do the same with the ball of your foot. Full power. then tell me what you reccommend. Oh by the way I attended Hochs worse cas scenario in Illinois a couple weeks ago-fantastic! I reccommend it to everyone.

[seanross]

The full story.

I talked to a guy at my kung fu school who had seen the video of the entire fight.  Earlier, the two fighters had been trading shin kicks - muy thai style.  Most likely the one fellow had a stress fracture from trading kicks and that is why his leg broke from a seemingly minor kick.

It does emphasize that trading punches or kicks to prove who is the baddest mofo may not be a wise course of action.

[Joe Hubbard]

That's the second clip of this type I have seen.  In the first one the guy countered with a shin block and miscaculated and countered with his knee and the kicker's shin broke in half the minute his foot landed on the floor.

This one looks as though it was just a standard Thai shin counter that resulted in the destruction.  Which ever way you look at it, you can only destroy a Thai kick if you know the appropiate counter- most on the street don't.  I prefer to use the knee destruction rather than the shin block.  It has served me well through the years.  Apart from my youth on the streets of Bangkok, no one has ever thrown a Thai kick my way.  Look for commonalities of attack specific scenarios- train them 95%; everything else train it, but unless you heading for the cage, you only need about 5% to be aware!

Ciao

Joe

[Hock]

talked to a guy at my kung fu school who had seen the video of the entire fight.  Earlier, the two fighters had been trading shin kicks - muy thai style.  Most likely the one fellow had a stress fracture from trading kicks and that is why his leg broke from a seemingly minor kick.

THAT is probably a great and usually missed point.
Hock

[Bri Thai]

Hi Hock.

If you don't use head butts because you might hurt your head....... and don't train shin kicks because you might hurt your shins........  Which body weapon do you have that you definately (including 0.01% of the time) will not hurt?

I'm not goading you, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

[Hock]

If you don't use head butts because you might hurt your head....... and don't train shin kicks because you might hurt your shins........  Which body weapon do you have that you definately (including 0.01% of the time) will not hurt?

Actually I do teach the use of head butts...in a limited way and not as a primary tool as..."kness, head butts and elbows, routine." There are just some times you have to head butt. But my head is not a war mace. In my Unarmed Combatives Level 8, my strike module is called "The Limited Use of the Head Butt." The key word there being limited, not never.

There are even times I would have to hit a guy with my laptop computer too. Situational. In fact when I poke fun at these guys, I may now call it "knees, laptops and elbows," just to make folks remember their near-liquid, splashing BRAINS are deeply involved in head butting.)

And using the shin to hit with, and hitting the right target is fine. (In the prior message about the "diminished shin" it was a very good point that the reason that healthy shin might cave unexpectantly like that, might be it had a bit of fracture softening it up.  That should/could have been a survivorable kick. I think a lot of people look at that clip and never think that the shin may have been already weakened) I would NEVER tell anyone not to shin kick. EVER.

The geneal rule of thumb for the realistic survivalist? Try to...

Hit something soft with something hard
>punching-fist to the torso or neck

and vice versa...
etc...

Hit something hard with something soft
>palm strike to head
>shin to thigh, side of knee, torso...
etc...

(Note the word "TRY")

Is a good rule of thumb which I think can be instilled though muscle-memory training.

If you punch me in the head or head butt me in the head, I could quite easily collapse from the impact. I'm screwed. Great shot! Your head butting me is terrible for me. Always will be. And you won!

But, the survival strategist next, must now plan to make it least terrible for you. For you might fight multiple opponents and well...just because....it's smarter! The smarter strategist next plans to save your head and fist from mishap by creating a smarter strike that still knocks me down and out, but saves your body parts for all the many common sense reasons.

A smarter system creates a framework that enhances the practitioner's survival, that is why the head butt should be a weapon of the last resort and a shin kick can be  pretty damn good, and one should "TRY" to hit something hard with something soft, and something soft with something hard as a general rule of thumb.

Hock

[Bri Thai]

Great reply.

[mleone]

I have seen pedro rizzo do the same thing. It broke complety, it makes me truly beleive that muay thai leg conditioning has value.

[Nick Hughes]

Mleone,

I gotta disagree amigo.  If they're both conditioned and someone's leg is still breaking then it tells me that the conditioning isn't all that wonderful.

If what we suspect is true i.e. that they'd been banging on each other during that match and stress fractures were the result that led to the break how does that apply to us unless we're contemplating competing in MT competitions.

3rd..martial arts has always been about health.  Even if you only use it to survive someone trying to whack you over the head with a barstool you've still preserved your health.  What is healthy about rolling bottles up and down your shinbones to the point where you've killed all the nerve endings in your legs?  (I wonder if someone's ever done a long term study on the effects of such conditioning and arthritis related injuries etc with regards to Thai boxers and Muy Thai guys?)

Finally, there's just so many other viable targets and weapons in a real fight (I think) that I don't see the need to resorting to planting my shin bone against someone elses.  Hard targets/soft weapons or soft targets/hard weapons.

Nick

[Hock]

(I wonder if someone's ever done a long term study on the effects of such conditioning and arthritis related injuries etc with regards to Thai boxers and Muy Thai guys?)

I think it is slim. I think the healthy span of Thai, shin-bangers is young, stupid and very short.

Hock