Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Stick and Baton Combatives => Topic started by: mleone on March 26, 2007, 04:08:14 PM

Title: Irony in Stick training
Post by: mleone on March 26, 2007, 04:08:14 PM
Hey Hock, check out this video. I have seen some techniques that you have done in stick grappling. Like the old under arm stick grappling technique. Similar? Some of these techniques look similar..

By the way I think Stephen hayes could have struck him much harder. Looks like he is drawing in the sand...

I just noticed some stick grappling in there. But I like your progression sure is good..

Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: Hock on March 26, 2007, 04:38:01 PM
Yes, the Japanese (and many) have stick work.

These in the film are those under the arm/push on the bicep move, over and over again, but honestly some of the follow-ups looked pretty "loose"... (one good guy dropped his knife!) like a stick choke that wasn't a stick choke, kind of thing.

But who knows what they were trying to do in this theme segment from which this has been segmented.

Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: Benjamin Liu on March 26, 2007, 05:23:37 PM
I have some of his DVDs, and this looks like the type of thing he shows in between sections, where students are practicing freestyle variations of what he just taught.  He'll teach techniques or concepts and then before moving on to the next section they'll show a segment like this.  I don't know the context of the clip or even the type of drill they are doing, but it looks like they are not striking mith much intent.  I'd also make sure I had control of the knife before doing some of the grappling shown later on the clip, but then again I don't know what the drill was for. 

I'm not exactly sure what was being taught specifically, but in general it is hanbojutsu, originally from Kukishinden Ryu.  Hanbojutsu involves striking and grappling with a 3-ft staff.  Masaaki Hatsumi has a book on the subject titled "Stickfighting."
Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: mleone on March 26, 2007, 07:21:07 PM
Its not bad but it is a bit loose.. I like hocks progression because it covers stick grappling like none that I have seen..
I like variety I guess..
Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: Kentbob on March 26, 2007, 08:31:47 PM
The movements all look very similar to what I did when I was in Taijutsu, which was probably about the most relevant thing I did there.  The rest, IMHO, was pure martial artsy fartsy garbage.

Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: mleone on March 27, 2007, 04:39:12 AM
I know what you mean Kent.
It seems they move very un-natural with un-natural stance movement..

Title: Re: Irony in Stick training
Post by: Benjamin Liu on March 27, 2007, 06:33:07 AM
It turns out that I actually have the original DVD where the clip came from and I was pretty much correct in my original opinion of it.  It is part of his second level Toshindo course.  Toshindo is a system Hayes started which was designed for people who did not want to learn traditional martial arts, sort of like an art for people who did not have the time required for a regular martial art.  In that DVD there are a few hanbo techniques taught, and I'm not sure what the point is.  IMO it looks like he is just showing some examples of what you can do with a hanbo since the DVD doesn't really cover the basics of the weapon.  Hayes has two types of DVDs, one are traditional arts and the other is his Toshindo system.  The traditional DVDs are a bit more structured and easier to outline and take notes on, but the Toshindo program is less technique-oriented so notes and outlines are more difficult, at least for me.  IMO stickwork is just an add-on to that program and students who want to actually study the hanbo would go to the traditinal program, though AFAIK there is not a DVD for it at this time, but in his branch dojos the teachser would be able to teach it.

Some of the techniques was showing what to do once a mistake was made, so that partially explains some of the strange counter-knife techniques. 

There are other things I've never seen in the Bujinkan, and I've been in this art for 11 years under different instructors and have videos on the topic.  Some of the one-handed techniques look like they would get the user in a pressure/pain point, and those are too complex for a self-defense course anyway.  There's more that is different but I can't put my finger on it, something along the lines of it looking kind of sloppy.  I looked back on my notes on that DVD I took a few years ago and I hardly wrote anything on the hanbo section, which was really small anyway.

This isn't a criticism of Hayes, I'm not part of the pro-Hayes/anti-Hayes debate that has been going on since the early 1990s, I just find those techniques strange.  When he comes out with a hanbo DVD it would probably make more sense.