Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Wardog on June 17, 2007, 09:27:49 AM

Title: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: Wardog on June 17, 2007, 09:27:49 AM
 Many people fail to remember when it comes to "trained the SEALS" or "Spetznaz(although they are one of the more H2H intensive)" that these special forces guys are busy shooting, jumping, etc. H2H is such a minor part of their training. The advantage they do have is strength and supreme fitness regimens which gives them an advantage even with the basics. Also, it is my understanding that in the TEAMS steroid use is becoming more the norm than not.  I don't know if that's true but the person who told me was an elite soldier.

Jim Wagner said in the recent BB(I know how we feel about him) that any technique you can't learn to the point of pulling off in the streets in 20 minutes means either the technique or the instructor sucks. Thoughts?

 Since I brought up strength. I think that exaggeration is a big part with many. What is a good bench vs an abnormal because everybody even 15 year olds claim to bench more than I ever have.I am not the strongest guy on the planet but I am stronger than most I know and don't touch drugs(well was, I am in shit shape at the moment).  A guy I know claims a 315 close grip bench. Clean.
Some guys are abnormally strong but let's face it. Powerlifters etc use shirts and are drugged to the hilt. No normal, clean human being benches 1010 pds, which I believe is the current World Record. I have my doubts that any top level athlete is clean anymore.
Title: Re: Defendo CQB
Post by: Hock on June 17, 2007, 10:35:56 AM
"Jim Wagner said in the recent BB (I know how we feel about him) that any technique you can't learn to the point of pulling off in the streets in 20 minutes means either the technique or the instructor sucks. Thoughts?"

You mean...Sky Marshal, Jim "Jack Bauer" Wagner -...Yes... the 1997 "Founder/inventor" of Reality-based training?  (where would we be without him! Whew!) The survivor of 240 "counter-terrorism" missions (we mere mortals just call them airline flights). THAT Jim Wagner?

This "minutes time limit rule" has some literary history. In the early 1990's, Kelly McCann wrote about the 5 minute rule, under the name of Jim Grover. McCann was a Marine (not an easy thing) and a Marine MAJOR (another not easy thing) and is super-human scary with firearms, and he has done security reconn work in both Afghan and Iraq -  AS WELLS AS  - I know from some good inside sources, a top notch, real deal, good guy.

And so, for the record here , I will restructure the question and then use a genuine, competent source like Kelly McCann, as the recent upbringing on the subject of the  so-called "____(blank) Minutes" rule.

It so happens I wrote about this in the last May, 2007 blog:  

5 May 2007: The Five Minute Rule
Have you heard about the Five Minute Rule? It goes like this. If someone shows me a fighting tactic or technique, and I can't learn it in five minutes. Its worthless to me. Or, if I show someone something and they cannot learn it in five minutes, its worthless. It is a rule that declares if a move is too complicated and too hard to learn it should be forgotten, after...well...five minutes. We do have a 2 minute egg and 4 minute mile.

This often gets quoted and I mean to say, I agree with the idea in general to some extent. But, sometimes there have been times I have shown, say, a jujitsu-like move to a large group and the group, as though it was struck with a contagious brain disease, failed to get it. I scratched my head watching them struggle, while for years other groups have caught onto the idea and movements very quickly. So for starters, the five minute rule depends on the group. And then the individuals in the group. A new "Group-Dependant Five Minute Rule?" Perhaps?...

But I sometimes wonder. Who came up the "five-minute" part. Why FIVE minutes? Why not 10? Or 20? Is it just an expression? An arbitrary figure? Surely there is no cognitive science to that selection. Maybe some of the best stuff may take all of six minutes?


Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: Joe Hubbard on June 27, 2007, 12:09:23 AM
Anyone who is a serious teacher has got to know that this is a ridiculous concept.  The Kelly McCann quote that I remember says, “Everything I teach you today, you will be able to use in the car park (parking lot) tonight.”  Really?  On McCann’s gun DVDs (I am a big fan of his by the way) he says you will only get your shooting together with practice- lots of practice.  He does not favor point shooting, but rather focuses on sighted aiming and is meticulous on his guys adopting the proper techniques.  Only two of the guys on the video looked like they knew what they were doing.  He then reiterates it takes practice, practice and then more practice- as he puts it, “Thousands of rounds guys!”  Skill+ Will = Kill

Moral of the story- Beware of self-defense instructors that boast that you will be able to use this stuff straight away.  As Hock says, “It’s all just maybes and maybe nots.”  Nothing is easy in life and nobody should ever say that it is.  You don’t have to like it- just do it!
Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: JimH on June 27, 2007, 07:42:49 AM
One of the requirements for basic self defense is that it should be easy to learn.
Others are that they be easy to implement and easy to remember.

The simplicity of what Kelly McCann does should not take long to learn and after one hour ,one should be able to walk away with a basic knowledeg of how to implement basic strikes.
(SWAMP as he calls it) Drop steps with edge of hands,striking vital targets is not hard to show or do.

If one looks at the Hours of training used over the years in the military one will find that they were minimal.
8-10 hours or less for units from Cammando courses in WWII to US Military Branches to Elite Spec Ops units
(today more emphasis is placed as I understand the q course now is near 40 hours of H2H)

Many with good basics have trained,have learned and have implemented true life and death self defense in minimal time.
Though what is allowed in combat ,by the military is not advisable for use on the street unless one wants to be in court defending its use,as it is meant for one thing killing and stopping the opponent quickly,which is not always doable in street confrontations.

Materials that ,to me seem easy to learn,even off video:
Kelly McCanns
Carl Cestari
Hock HochHeim
Joe Hubbard
Nick Hughes
Gary Payne
Glen Boodry
Billy Burke
Moni Aizik
Avi Nardia
(There are others that could be on this list but it is off the top of my head)

What makes these mens materials usable self defense?
The majority of what they show is
Easy to learn
Easy to implement
Easy to remember

I should ,and anyone should, be able to look at the materials and reenact it with a partner and do each technique several times and in the course of 1 hour of true work,I should have a clue as to protecting myself,and be alot more able and confident than before I did it.

If a student is shown a move and they cannot replicate it after demo then it is too much for a basic understanding of self defense.

If I want to teach an art then I start simply and get to advanced and build difficulty of understanding and implimentation.
(art is time,basic self defense is simplicity)

As to shooting,shooting is a skill of time.
In the Marine Corps we dedicated two weeks of 8-10 hour days on the range shooting and working and training to shoot.
Unarmed combat was approx 8-10 hours total

The five minute rule is probably doable as far as establishing a basic understanding of Gross motor skill techniques to a complete newbee.

Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: Joe Hubbard on June 27, 2007, 09:42:20 AM

Good post as usual.  With all respect I just don’t agree with this- “What I show you today you will be able to do later tonight” school of thought. It just doesn’t wash across the board; it solely depends on the individual- maybe it will happen, but maybe it won’t.  As Kelly so aptly puts it, “Combatives is all about mind-set.”  Yeah, the technique may be easy to execute, but what makes it work is scenario work, utilizing the resistance continuum from zero to hero and development of aggression and follow through.  I’m flattered that you included me on your list, but I prefer the Einstein way of thinking- “Keep it simple, but not too simple.  This keeps it real for my students because everybody possesses different attributes.  Practice with anything is essential and in these times of quick fixes and the “I want it my way” generation, motivating people into a practice mind-set is gradually fading away and just not emphasized enough IMO.  Unfortunately, No Skill + No Will = No Kill.


Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: cfadeftac on June 27, 2007, 05:49:35 PM
Wow this is old but I seem to remember Massaki Hatsumi saying that a student should leave every class better able to protect themselves.  I think that statement works better than a 5 minute rule.

Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: JimH on June 28, 2007, 08:20:19 AM
I fully agree that scenarios,repeated work and the attempt to develop an ability to flip the switch towards action in those not wired that way are essential to create a student who will act.

My point is that there are many that want one day exposure,and we should be able to give one day/one time trainers something that they walk out feeling more confident in themselves and give them a base line ability to strike and get out of there.

Here is a clip of Cestari:


Sorry I looked for clips on you tube for Hock,Joe and Nick, and in this clip we see a BASIC movement usable against varied attacks of similar nature,in 29 seconds he explains and does it twice.
we can see the benefit of it from the first demo.

Very simple ,very basic,easily replicated.

In 5 minutes we could demo this twice and still have the student do it 18 times.
Though 18 times is enough to get the idea and ,for some,to be able to do it if needed,my point is that if the technique is simple,replication and understanding of Basics are doable and seen as useful in 5 minutes.
To a trained person 5 minutes of doing this simple move would be enough to allow them to relate this to past experience and perhaps,if they choose,implement it.

Simple basic technique to a Blank screen newbee should allow them to go away in an hour or a day with useful info.

Even if they just learned that i 5 minutes and walked away but kept it fresh with periodic training,if attacked in that manner they should be able to do it.

Even in a traditional art like Hapkido,we tell people take a class and  at the end  we hope you walk away with something useful.
Something useful does not mean it is known and complete,just seen and found doable by the person.

As far as developing the attitude to respond,much is inbreed as to doers  as compared to those who will go passive.
While we can try to get them to flip the switch some will never be able to do it for real,though they can in class,as reality is a different game.

If we look at the writings of LT Col Grossman,many trained by the military to respond to conflict fail to meet the response.
50 percent fail to engage an enemey set on killing them,and this is after the memebers have under gone immersion into those specific skills.

5 minutes is long enough to see a technique or a move and to be able to see the benefit and replicate it,though I fullly agree it is not the end of the process.
Repeated replication and scenarios along with increased levels of intent are needed,especially for civilian use in todays society where the predators have an advantage with so much of the prey not knowing they are targets,in their own self absorbed worlds and non physically active lives.

Your DVD is exactly what Self Defense is and should be ,simple,easy to learn and replicable.
You belong on the list  for sure,as do the others.)
Title: Re: That 5-minute Rule Thing
Post by: Hock on January 16, 2008, 03:34:33 PM
5 minutes more, give me 5  minutes more...