Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: mickt on December 15, 2007, 06:10:10 PM

Title: Gun Disarming
Post by: mickt on December 15, 2007, 06:10:10 PM
As I look through the new blackbelt magazine, I see everyones favorite person - Jim Wagner.  He is taking a gun from his partner (page 86 - feb 08).

I have a, has it happened question.

When you grab the top of this weapon what if it goes off.  Has anyone everyheard of such a thing happening to anyone.
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: JimH on December 15, 2007, 09:23:03 PM
Have not seen the Feb 08 mag yet.

Can the weapon go off when grabbed? Yes

What happens after that depends on how hard you grabbed and held the slide on the automatic,it may fire and rerack,or it maybe slowed enough that it causes a jam.

Will you be ready for the weapon to go off close to your body?

Keep the weapon from pointing at you.

Here is a clip,the part that pertains to your question is at around 1:20 -1:32.
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Hock on December 16, 2007, 07:51:07 AM
That film is standard fare solutions:

- clear the barrel
- wrap the arm
- beat the man

except for the important part JimH wanted you to see. People holding a semi-auto while it goes off. And that part is great to see. At worst you may get a slight cut on your hand. It is easy to imagine your fingers blowing off or something bad... but they don't. You don;t get to see footage like that often. Why?

We find this kind of training rare and here and there in police work, but if you try and teach the police this in your prepared outline, be then prepared to prop the Police Chief 's head or training LT's head up and fan his face because they will surely faint before when they read the proposed outline. "You want to do WHAT?"

It can be done and builds confidence in "gun-holding' Most people reflexively release the gun when it is fired. (Good to know when the bad guy is grabbing yours- oops sorry Chief. Wake up Chief! You see- that is like a warning shot and thou shault not fire warning ANY shots, even if our life depends upon it.)

Now in the film, and probably in Jim "Jack Baur" Wagner's article, (or was he playing a super-soldier, sentry-assassin in this one - as I have seen the beret-born cover) thats a semi auto, a piece of metal built to withhold the smal explosion each time a bullet is fired. What of a revolver? It is more open. The blast is sent through the openings. In a nutshell, if you grab the revolver, your hand will feel some this flash. It will not blow your fingers off! But you will feel the flash.

I took a .44 Magnum from a guy. In the scrape he fired the revolver and the gun was about one or two inches from my face. I must have closed my eyes at the right second because I never saw any flash. The sound, however was devastating. I had one hand on or about the pistol and one on his forearm. I did a push pull style disarm in the second after he fired and got the big gun.

Get this, the blood vessels around my right eye burst into small patterns, as my head must have been that close to the cylinder and explosion. My left hand was closing in on the far side of the pistol and can't tell you if I was touching it when it went off, or it was just a hair away. My hand had zero sign of injury.

The blast went through my head so to speak and completely wiped out my right ear. All I heard was a giant, shrill, siren scream as I finished the mess up and got the situation under control. This happened when I was a private investigator so I did not have to follow any legal...control protocol. No fainting police chiefs.

Later I had some related migranes. But my ears have been missed up for years anyway. And I had migranes before that day and after that day.

There are lots of demos and discussion on this in my Gun 4.

Three cheers to the boys in Jim's clips for training while holding the barrel, (as well as mastering their scenarios to such a high speed performance.


And if course if you grab around the slide of a semi-auto, the gun may go "out-of-battery" and not fire. If your grip on the revolver interferes with the rotation of the cylinder, or the opening and closing of the hammer, the "wheel" gun may not fire.

It is better to have a slight problem with your hand, than to let go of the gun and let the next shot blow your brains out.

These are the REAL, and important subjects of gun fighting and gun training, not "endlessly standing around public ranges and wasting ammunition at paper targets" (I paraphrase General Patton).

Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Snowball on December 16, 2007, 10:54:42 AM
Anyone seen Larry Wick's "live fire" dvd? His other stuff is, well, bad. But he claims to use all live fire in this one. Am curious about the content but unwilling to spend the $$$ to see for myself.
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: JimH on December 22, 2007, 09:59:58 AM
I just got the Black Belt Issue  being talked about,Oh my.

I can see why the question came up over the pistol going off.
Wagner steps off line ,slightly,grabs the weapon and when the shooter pulls to recover the weapon Wagner steps into the shooter and oushes the weapon into his face,while plausable,wagner has his face buried next to the ejector port side of the pistol,not a place I would want my face ,no less my eyes

Here is a clip on the making of the shoot for the mag:

I also am leary of the other defenses recommended especially the one where the attacker takes you from behind,Knife around the throat and Wagnertells you to grab the hand and blade or two hands on the blde and pull and turn.
Man has anyone done this stuff thewy tell people?
I was a Teenager and was told this stuff and when I was confronted by a knife attack i grabbed the weapon and turned it as instructed and the attacker pulled the weapon out of my hand like a hot knife through butter,almost Lost my Thumb because of stupid instruction by peopl who never did it to see the REALITY of it.
(Oh yeah,the Better to lose all your fingers than get your throat cut thing,there are other alternatives)

Wagner is now calling his stuff the Special Operations of self Defense and is writing a book "Defensive Tactics for Special Operations" Oh My,Oh My.
What in the heck does some one never in Special Operations Know about it?
Sorry traveling around teaching some Special Units DOES NOT qualify you as an expert?
Maybe being in a Reserve Sherriff SWAT team is the expertise?
Maybe it was the Air Marshall training  and sitting on your butt on a plane?

I like some of his materials,but the Hype to make yourself Bigger than you are and to claim any experience as making one an expert is beyond REALITY,all to make a sale to people who do NO research,at leats go into as I did,Know he is  a BS Artist but go to see the Material.
(Even psycho's in a Mental Ward can have a Good Fight Skill worth seeing,as long as you know they are psycho)

I like the USE/MisUSE of the RANGER Type Beret and the Desert BDU's in the Photos and the Wagner Name Tag with the branch Name Tag saying California,lol.
I met a Guy at a Martial Arts Hall of Fame  Last Year,he had on Desert BDU's he had on Master Blaster Jump wings ,international Jump wings,Combat Infantry Badge,a SOCOM Patch,special Forces and Ranger Tab,Special Forces Patch and a Ranger Beret,with SGT Major Insignia of rank.(BS Alert goes on)

I had to speak to him and he tells me his Military History,Retired Army Full Career Special Operations,3rd Batt /75th Rangers, 7th Special Forces.
I start asking him if he knows some guys that I know who are still in that served in the same units he claimed,Low and Behold he does not know any of them.

Later I see him doing some training witha guy I know from the NYPD Training division.
I watch,the phony nods and walks off.
I said to the guy I know that the guy is a nutter,he says the phony is a retired NYPD officer,living in Florida and claims to train Green Berets and Rangers down there.

The next Day he has on Captain Bars,so I ahd to say nice Promotion since yesterday,lol.

Mean while they let him in the event Free because he was in Uniform,and they gave him access to take photos.

Low and Behold the Other Night they had on a show called "Weaponology",the show was on the US Army Rangers.
They showed the Training and weapons of the Rangers and history,at around 50 minutes in they show Ranger Hand to Hand in the Pits and then they go outside the Base to show us some more Ranger Hand to Hand and Low and Behold who is the Instructor in Desert BDU's and Ranger head Gear but this phony Guy.
I was asking myself,doesn't anyone do a check on these people.

Man the world is full of Nutters who can pull off selling themselves and who sooner or later will get some one killed with their PHONY crap.
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Hock on December 22, 2007, 10:22:09 AM
Ohhhhh my...indeed!
Double indeed.


Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: JimH on December 28, 2007, 09:20:26 AM
Seems the Uniform Jim Wagner is wearing in the Black Belt Article is the uniform of the California State Military Reserve of which he is a Sgt and Assistant Trainer.
(He has an ad for People to Join the CSMR in the Back of the Recent Balck Belt Mag in which the pistol Disarm and Knife Disarm are mentioned)

The Person he works under in this unit,Sgt Garcia is a former member of the Special Forces of El Salvador ,who attended US Army Ranger School and Airborne school and who is currently a LT in the California Public Safety Unit.

I Guess that being under this guy,Sgt Garcia, is the cause for the New Special Forces Concepts as in a new term for his Reality based materials and the New Book.
(work under an El Salvadorian Spec Ops guy and write a book,lol,just like Air Marshalls are Government contracted Anti Terrorism Specialists)

Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: JimH on December 28, 2007, 11:04:39 AM
Jim Wagner
Studied Kenpo for a short while then JKD for a while.

US Army
MOS 14J10
Air Defense
Left as an E2

Worked as a Jailer/Corrections Officer CA

Served as a RESERVE officer for the Sheriffs Department CA

Created a Self Defense System and Called it Reality Based Self Defense
(sold Himself as experienced as an Infantry soldier,Jailer with many encounters both Armed and Unarmed,Member of a SWAT unit SGT and dignity Protection specialist)

After 9/11
He Went to training and work as an Air Marshall and flew nearly 200 flights without incident.
(Said the Government asked him to join and he was trained as an anti terrorism specialist)

Now Member of the CSMR

If we look at what is next to his name in the article as a trainer for the CSMR we see he only claims Federal Marshall (left off the "AIR" Part) and Black Belt Hall of Fame Recipient.
No reference to Police work ,SWAT or Dignitary Protection as other members/trainers have done in the article because he would be outted.

I am sure the role as a one Day a Month member of the CSMR will play a role in Future articles and experiences,heck he is already wearing the unifrom in Black Belt Articles.
(allows for wearing the unifrom of the Military,as few will see the patches or California tags and ask what that means,many will see the uniform and see him as a Current Military Operator in Desert BDU's)

Maximum use of Six Degrees of Seperation as a Self Sales Pitch,LOL.
(Ever thing I do has me encounter some one who knows some one or does something  that I can connect myself to which allows me to sell myself)
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Hock on December 28, 2007, 11:50:04 AM
"Maximum use of Six Degrees of Seperation as a Self Sales Pitch, LOL."

That is great!
Hey, you know that degree-separation-concept could be used a standard evaluation.
We already know about "2nd and 3rd generation" verbage

Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: whitewolf on January 04, 2008, 10:05:20 AM
JimH/All-I looked at the picture that showed a SgtLai instructing in the choke to the opponent who is on top in the guard of the choker-1-the guy on top can do immediate action to stop the choke by A-grabbing both  wrists B-thumbs to  eyes C-grab at fingers-i
That is a hard choke to put on someone when they are not just being a dummy and waiting for the choke to be put on-IMHO they should be teaching to blind/pull helmet/hair/etc not try to use the guys uniform to tap him out -am i  missing the boat  here??

Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: VicMackey on January 05, 2008, 09:21:14 AM
Although I have a lot of respect for him, I'm not at all surprised. A lot of other instructors also try to do things (I am not calling any names) to sell their stuff. For example, I have seen a knife instructor even wear dark glasses and black BDU's/T-shirts to look tough. But as far as his skill goes, I wouldn't doubt it at all.
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Wardog on January 05, 2008, 10:55:11 AM
"Jim Wagner, the founder of the revolutionary Reality-Based Personal Protection system, is a former soldier, corrections officer, street cop, SWAT officer, diplomatic bodyguard, and counterterrorist agent for the United States government after 9/11. Since 1992 he has taught some of the world's most elite units: German GSG9, FBI, Brazilian G.A.T.E., Israeli Special Forces, Argentenian G.O.E., Royal Canadian Mounted Police, U.S. Navy and Marines PMO, Finland's National Police Academy, DEA, U.S. Border Patrol, California Highway Patrol and the list goes on."

 This is from Wagner's page.  I highly doubt an elite unit like the GSG9 or the Israeli's are employing this guy. Again, we see the counter-terrorist claim(which is his air marshal stint) listed. This guy is a major fraud and frankly if he was named BB magazine Self Defense Instructor of the Year 2006, if I were any of the other guys given it recently(like Kanarek) I wouldn't gloat because obviously it is a meaningless bought and paid for honour. BB Magazine should hang its head in shame.  But it's all about the money right? Like virtually everything else these days.  Forget truth, honesty, self-respect, credibility. If somebody can fork out enough he can be anything he wants, carry any title. And how does he keep getting work? Are the people that employ him(police forces etc) that clueless and unable of doing a thorough background check to let him slip through. Not to mention when the guy gets on the mat. Is nobody there to say, " you know what? This guy just ain't that good".  Or is it giving them what they want, A false sense of training? I go back to the story of a local police force that turfed their hardcore H2H instructor because he was too rough on them. Went back to something a little easier on them but much less effective. Less what they truly needed. I guess the main question here is, why aren't guys like Wagner exposed?
Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: JimH on January 05, 2008, 06:52:20 PM
Most of the Units he lists as having trained are groups he did Training and demonstrations for where done for free paid for by the mags or they paid just travel and lodging.
He was not employed by them.
He contacted them and said he would come and do training for them,most likely for the Photo Op and Thank You Letter.

That was at the start,(possibly still today) though I imagine since appearing in the Magazines and the Hype he probably gets invites for Pay,then again maybe not or he would not be doing the CSMR for Photo Ops,Bragging rights and Training Credits.

Then again I Know of ALOT of people teaching one person or a few members of Elite Military and or Police Units who then go on and claim to be training what ever the Units Names are.
I Trained Special Forces,they say,then when questioned they tell you they taught at a school near a base and had members of the Special Forces,for example, in their class.
This to them constitutes training them.
Bernard Kerik did this in his book and I had opportunity to ask him about it, and his was a school off base story.
Many,Many others do the same.

Wagner does what many do.

I had opportunity to train the Sections and Teams I WAS ON in the Marine Corps and the Army,yet would never claim to have TRAINED these Units to sell myself.

Cashing in on the Heroics of others is done by many,many who would never make it into those Units.
(this is one of my pet peeves of the Israeli Krav Sales Machine)

Wagner sells himself through affiliations,enhancement,exageration and the Gift of Gab.
(Black Belt and BUDO love him as he brings in others who write and sell articles,DVDs and they all enhance the Mags sales so he gets BUDO and Black Belt awards)

The Award is his full Credit to instruct the CSMR.
(now the CSMR will carry him to some thing else to sell or claim)

Title: Re: Gun Disarming
Post by: Hock on January 18, 2008, 03:05:09 PM
Thanks to the information from Dov, I decided to move his and JimH's and thereafter over to a new category, "Krav Maga from the Inside," but in this same Unarmed category, rather than let it get lost at the bottom of this thread.