Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Gun Fighting => Topic started by: Ryan on December 27, 2007, 05:55:43 PM

Title: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Ryan on December 27, 2007, 05:55:43 PM
I'm looking for some advice.  I'd like a new handgun for CCW, that I would carry more often than not.  I've looked at the Kel-tec PF-9 (as well as the smaller Kel-tecs), the Cobra Patriot .45 ACP, the Kahr PM-9, and the Springfield XD Sub-compact.  Anyone have any experience with any of these weapons or care to offer up others?

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Hock on December 27, 2007, 06:37:00 PM
Everyone will probably offer up a Glock, but I think all your choices sound good me.
(that helps alot, huh? But its true!)

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Ryan on December 28, 2007, 08:21:43 AM
Thanks, Hock.  Where are all of the gun nuts?
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Hock on December 28, 2007, 08:41:11 AM
On Holiday vacation.
I believe they will return after New Years...things are mighty quiet....
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: redfive on December 28, 2007, 11:36:06 AM
I carry a 5 shot Taurus 357 revolver. Cant think of the model number off hand. I love it for its size and simplicity. You also have the chose of two amos 38 or 357. I also have a Glock 22 40cal. I carry if I'm going to my ranch or out door events. That way I have a close range easy carry gun. But if I know I may need more fire power I have the glock. For each weapon you have to sort of tailor your clothing choices. CHLs have to be concealed. the Glock requires you to wear looser clothes or a jacket shirt. the Revolver,I can wear just about anything or even stick it in my pocket. I also have a Kal-Tec PLR-16  now thats a hell of a gun, but cant conceal it anyware, unless I wear some thug clothes and shove it down my pants. So the choice depends on your clothing choices and your life style. And there are hundreds of ways to carry them. So I would go to a store and try them out and see what fells best  and in which way to carry. would not go below a 38. would not recommend a  22,380 or the 25. The Baby Glocks are great too, again they have no decockers or safty levers. Just draw it and shot it. They would be my next choice.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: rutleddc on December 28, 2007, 01:08:17 PM
Right now I carry in an over-the-shoulder pouch a Springfield 1911A1. It is a bit big but I usually just carry it in the car as I drive. As an engineer I cannot carry it into work even though my company makes cannons and vehicles.  :-\

As a single action pistol I carry it with an empty chamber, as an accidental discharge could cost me my security clearance and hence the money I use to fund my family and any toys I may want. It is probably safe to carry with a loaded chamber since the 1911 has many safeties built into the design.

I have been thinking about getting a DA/SA polymer pistol and moving into the modern world, but there are so many choices. Right now I am looking at an FNP-40 as I like FNH products (pricey though) and have thoroughly enjoyed my FN HiPower over the years. Of course the two pistols are very different in design but I like FNH design philosophy and image of focusing on reliability. They did get offtrack for a few years with the F2000 bullpup rifle but hopefully they they are back on track with the SCARS rifle...

I really enjoyed shooting a friends Springfield XD-40 a couple of months back too, and I found it easy to shoot accurately. I just didn't like how it looked (very subjective) and I am very vein/shallow regarding looks - life is too short to ownugly cars and firearms.  ::)
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on December 28, 2007, 01:38:11 PM

Mate, I've pretty much shot everything there is to shoot and I carry a Glock.  My 2nd choice would be a browning hi-power.  (Used by 22 SAS for many years).

Glocks are pretty much indestructible, are point and shoot (important under stress), don't require much cleaning, aren't finicky and the ONLY weapon I haven't witnessed mis-fire or jam on any shooting course I've ever been on.  Daniel has noticed the same thing and he's nearly done more shooting courses than I have.

I'd steer clear of the sub-compacts and go with a 19.  The subs are as wide as the full-size so all you've saved yourself is some barrel length (and accuracy).

Don't do anything fancy to it, spend the money on ammo and practice because if you ever do need it you'd damn well better be surgical when it comes to hitting the target.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Ryan on December 28, 2007, 09:57:51 PM
Thanks for all of the feedback.  Nick, compensated or no?
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: arnold on December 29, 2007, 05:23:47 AM
I have shot the new Taurus OSS/DS in 45 ACP. Loved it! But it does look a great deal like the Springfield XD, but I can't find one for sale anywhere.
I normally ( tho I am never normal) carry a 45 AMT compact 6 shot DA only. In my desk is a S&W Modell 66 combat master loaded with Glaser safety slugs. Around the house is a S&W 625 ACP set up with Black Talons. For those dressy occasions, I carry either my colt officers model that I built up many years ago, or my lovely model 70 Colt. For those truly special holidays, I bring out my old Colt Gold Cup, National Match.
Uncle Nicky is right about the Glock, but it is uglier that crap. But the Nickster does have a fondness for things ugly and vinyl. Have you seen how he made up his blow up doll collection for the holidays? Sad, just truly sad.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on December 29, 2007, 01:27:21 PM

No mate, not compensated.  Straight from the box.  You can pick one up at Shooter's Express in Belmont brand new for right around $400...you can find them 2nd hand at the gun shows for cheaper than that.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Ryan on December 29, 2007, 09:41:32 PM
I was at Shooters two days ago.  I'll head back down Monday and check it out...thanks.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: arnold on December 30, 2007, 06:33:20 AM
I even agree with the Nickster on the Brownings. I have 2 hi powers, one a GP Competition
model, the other a Waffen Stamped 1943 Nazi issue. The GP is fussy about ammo, as are most target guns, but will shoot a dime at 50 ft. The Nazi gun is a typical military pisto, a little rough, crunchy trigger, but shoots ever time, regardless of what's shoved into it.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Lone Wolf on December 31, 2007, 04:11:01 PM
     I am no "gun guy", just someone who has gone thru the same process you are.  What did I do?  Well first I read all the stuff posted on the gun forums and gun mags.  Read all the stuff about 9mm vs. .40 vs .45 and real steel vs. plastic etc.  What did I buy first?  A Springfield Mil Spec 1911 in .45APC.  What do I currently own and shoot (besides my much beloved Browning Buckmark .22 which will never, never go away), a Glock 19 9mm. 
     The reason I ended up with the G19 is as follows in no particular order.  Size, you can easily conceal it yet comfortably shoot it all day at the range, light wgt as CCW is about comfort so you will actually carry the thing, the durability that Nick mentioned, magazine capacity, shootability, availability of modern HP ammo, ammo cost for practice.  I won't say anything about Glock perfection becasue that would just be stirring the pot....
     As for the list you mentioned, the Kahrs and Kel-Tec have long double action triggers.  Especially the Kel-Tec, my god that trigger!  Never played with a Cobra, I think they are fairly new on the market.  I have never shot a sub compact XD but have fired a service size XD.  The XD's are nice guns and I like several of the features on them but they feel bulkier and top heavy in my hands than the Glocks.
     This whole gun thing is confusing as there are many choices and much of your choice is subjective.  But if you only have one or a few guns, the glocks have such a track record that it is hard to overlook.  And in terms of caliber, well, but as Nick mentioned 22 SAS used 9mm BHP's for a long time and I would think they would pick what works pretty well and that of any unit in the Queen's service, they would be able to pick their weapons and caliber, although maybe not. 
     Also, make sure you use a holster for the Glocks and Xd's esp.  Some guys pocket carry the Kel-Tecs and Karhs, even J-Frames cause of their long trigger.  Seems to be asking for trouble.  And sorry if you already know this stuff as I don't want to patronize you.
     Glad we cleared all that up, eh??


Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Ryan on December 31, 2007, 09:49:54 PM
Okay, so thanks to everyone who contributed.  FYI, I bought a Glock 19 AND a Kel-tec PF-9.  I'm really liking the Glock.  I'll get a good feel for the Kel-tec tomorrow.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: arnold on January 01, 2008, 07:14:05 AM
It all boils down to this. Get what you like and can afford in the largest caliber possible, that you can shoot well. All of the rest means zippo. Unless of course you have a auto fire only BAR. Now you can rule your own neighborhood. Or a nuclear potato gun. Or load Uncle Nicky into a cannon and shoot him into an offending neighborhood!
But the Nickster is hard to conceal with that large head. So if you do get him, paint his head like the ReMAx ballon and tell people your the beginning of the parade
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: rutleddc on January 01, 2008, 01:10:35 PM
A couple of years back I talked with three SAAS gentlemen at the NDIA Small Arms Conference. They said they were very happy with the HiPower, but that they wished they were allowed to have 45 ACP.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 01, 2008, 11:11:45 PM
Sounds like they were spinning you a yarn.  It's my understanding that they have pretty much free range when it comes to choosing which weapons they adopt for use.  For instance they use the American M16 and M4 while the regular British troops have to use the much maligned SA-80.

They used the Browning for years and recently switched to the SIG...I doubt anyone told them you can't use .45 when you make the change.

Perhaps JimH has some more info.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: shastana on January 11, 2008, 02:33:28 PM
I'm with you on the concealable search.  Have a XD45 5-inch barrel and it is very smooth and easy to maintain.  It is hungry and I need to feed it again soon.

My application is for civilian CCW.  I am eyeballing Glock 30.  Just can't get away from .45 because my app includes backcountry critter deterrant as well.  My bud up in AK laughs at .45 or smaller....he totes a 44 mag for grizz. 

What would Jesus carry?
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on January 16, 2008, 12:54:35 AM
  I will be getting my ccw soon, and bought a few pistols to address the issue- here in MO we have a variety of completely insane seasons, where in one day we can (and have had ) a 40 degree temp change- so for the hod and humid summers, I have my s+w 36, and for the winter I bought an FM browning clone, and the additional detective slide, to give me a variety of options, all of which I enjoy shooting- now to shoot a whole lot of ammo through them......  BTW, there was a youtube video called what would jesus shoot, it was up as of a few weeks ago... rather funny in its highly cynical way.....
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 16, 2008, 07:58:04 AM

There's one valid reason for a .45 over a 9mm and that is if you live somewhere very cold.  In cold weather blood vessels shut down/shrink and become constricted.  A smaller calibre therefore doesn't cause as much blood loss as a bigger one does.

Also, make sure you can fit your finger inside the trigger guard while wearing gloves.  Some guns are specifically designed for this...others are almost impossible.  If you're outside, and it's freezing, you don't want to find you can't get your finger inside the guard.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on January 16, 2008, 03:46:10 PM
  thanks, something to consider, luckily lately, if its really bad weather in the last couple of years it has meant either a snow storm or an ice storm, either of which shuts down the town and leaves us all inside- unless of course its just bare ground and bitter cold....I tried shooting in weather like that a few weeks ago, and immediately went out and bought a pair of those jersey gloves cause gunmetal gets mighty cold mighty quick- not a bad solution that did fit inside my trigger guard, but kind of thin for any long term use-
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 16, 2008, 06:51:00 PM
It doesn't have to be really bad to necessitate wearing gloves.  Some other cold weather considerations are...

Your adversary is going to be wearing tons of heavy clothing.  Hollow points tend to get plugged with all the material and filling on their way through so they become, in effect, big hard ball.  That's why, given they're not likely to expand at all, the bigger .45 is the way to go.

Re the weapon choice I'd opt for the Glock again.  Double action weapons triggers go so far forward that when you shove your gloved finger in the guard the trigger might not make it all the way back forward meaning you have a one shot pony in a gun fight.  The Glock on the other hand was designed by Gason for Austrian troops working in European winters and will accomodate the gloved hand nicely.  (look at what Alaskan and other cold area cops all carry...that is what we in the investigations industry call a clue  :D.

Last two points I'd make...practice drawing that sucker from concealment if you're in clothing that heavy.  Unlike here where all I'd have to do is hall up on a t-shirt you're going to have to claw your way through down filled jackets, sweaters, shirts and so on, with gloves on, to access your piece.

Finally, have a really snug fitting or retention holster.  It's far more likely you'll slip on your arse in ice, sleet and snowy conditions and a speed draw holster is going to mean your weapon will more than likely fall out.  Yikes!!!


PS:  Yes, you might be inside...the bad guy may not!!  He might come seeking warmth at your place.

PPS:  They actually make shooting gloves...some of us had them in the Legion during the coldest winter in Europe in hundreds of years.  (back in 84 & 85)  They come with a mitten like cover over four fingered gloves and the trigger finger is cut so you can slip the glove back for the shot(s)

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on January 17, 2008, 11:44:16 AM
  I may get some of those, note, however, that for eight months of the year we have reasonable (ok, not reasonable, but at least above cold) weather, and for at least three we get temps in the 90's with 90% humidity- so  its an all weather environment, with the caveat that in spring and fall (and sometimes winter and summer) it can vary daily- hell last month we had an ice storm, and a two days of 15- 20 degrees (f), on the third day, it was 16 in the morning, and by noon it was 56- it topped out at 61-  this is in mid december mind you- 4 days later we had 8 inches of snow and a week of 30 degrees or less- so I am looking at more of a be ready for anything and gear and training have to reflect that - to that end, on sunday, when the high is to be about 25, myself and some buddies are going to the range to see how we do amidst shivering and cold......  all the weather variation is making me lean toward a shoulder bag for carry, as I tend toward one anyway, and this being a college town, do not stand out at all- makes the problem of 95 degrees and humid concealment go away, and would free up the possibility of carrying something, well as big as needed without showing.... any thoughts?
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 17, 2008, 03:54:27 PM
Yep, if someone snatches your bag, you're fooked.  You should always have your piece on you according to everything I've ever heard.

To add a little bit...think of how many lap top bags are stolen and targeted.  Left unguarded for a second, scammed or just plain snatched off you as you're walking.  You might also get mugged for the bag by someone thinking it contains a lap top and then they've got your piece as well.

Regarding the practice in the cold...absolutely.  That's a killer idea and I'd love to hear what you discover about accessing the weapon, shooting with gloves and the whole nine.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on January 17, 2008, 04:12:19 PM
 cool- I will let you know how the sunday shoot goes.....
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on February 03, 2008, 12:09:18 AM
sorry for the delay, heres the result of a brief shoot in the uber cold (10 degrees F)

and about a 5mph wind also-  so this was brief, but still offered some points, some obvious, some not so much so-

    For the record I was test firing my argentine BHP as it was just back from the shop, and test firing my newly bought knockaround carbine, a highpoint 995-  my wife was firing her rossi .38 j frame clone-
     My wife had a pair of those shooters mitts, though in red and pink, and I shot bare handed and then in light  jersey gloves- the el cheapo walmart dark brown work gloves- the ones without the nubs for grip-

   first off, metal is cold, really, and it was uncomfortable, but as tight as my grip was it took some time to notice- when I did it hit me  all at once, and I transitioned to the jerseys - I noticed that the high points plastic all around grip was more fun to touch than the backstrap of the BHP- (maybe a point in favor of a glock or other polymer pistol) as for the gloves, they kept my hands warm, but a cotton glove slides around a whole lot on smooth metal and plastic- they also kind of bunch up a bit when you grip something hard- but did not interfere with the operation of either weapon-  my wife had no problems with the shooters style mitts, but both of us noted that some ruberizing or "grippy knobs" would be nice- and I can see that with some of the "slack " in the jerseys, they could interfere with some weapons triggers- though they are thin enough that it was just the slack and bunching that worried me ( they fit in the trigger guard easily)-   a few days later I wandered into wally world, and noted that a thin grip enhanced glove just like I wanted is being marketed in several forms for hunting season- I will probably pick some up soon, and give a report and brand names

  Incidentally, the high point carbine worked without any problems, at least for the 50 rounds I fed it, Had heard mixed reviews, and would never own one of their pistols, but the carbine I like- I will do an extended range session with it soon ,and post the results here, Not of course suggesting that its anything like some of the better weapons on the market, but as a knockaround truck gun or trunk rifle, I think it may have promise.....
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: ee4uandme on May 08, 2008, 08:13:44 AM
I really like Glock brand pistols, and they fit my hands very well, but like anything else mechanical they can fail. Every time I shoot at a local range I rent the full size Glock 40 and every time I get at least 1 stove-pipe jam. When I was completing my NRA pistol instructor certification the instructor let me borrow his .45 Glock, again a stove-pipe jam. Easily cleared and you should train so that clearing that comes second nature. Just wanted to play Devilís advocate a little with Glock and emphasis the importance of training to handle misfires and jams with what ever kind of gun you get.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Karl on May 11, 2008, 09:10:46 PM
We carry Glock 19, 23 and 22 at work. 9 MM and 40.  CCW Security.
I found that if i carry the 22, 23 all the time, it takes a while to get used to the small one.
We tested that at the Gun range and i found a marked difference at the second and more shots about shot placement.
I have a Blackwater Sherpa Holster.
Here in Aussie land its mostly the heat not the cold we have to think of so the baddie doesn't see your Gun.
Try out a few Guns at the Gun Show, Shop with different holsters.
The problem i find with most of the Guys i work with, they all carry but never think about how can i reach my Gun.
Sitting in the car, getting out, your arm gets trapped, the Gun gets snagged in your clothes etc.
So ones you get your Gun and you are reasonable good shooting it, start Scenario Training.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: arnold on May 12, 2008, 05:49:45 AM
shot the Taurus OSS DS in 45 over the weekend. Did initial disassembly and cleaning. Feed 100 rounds of hardball through it without a single problem. Shoots to point of aim and holds sub 1 1/2 inch groups from the rest. Like the way it feels better than the Springfield XD.  I use the Alessi belt slide break top holster. Lou Alessi makes some first rate stuff. I've had some of his rigs for more than 20 years.
Plus, I make any weapon look good!
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Hock on May 12, 2008, 07:15:29 AM
All great posts, but I think Ryan of NC - the original poster looking for advice...has opted out of the talk forum as well as the CQC Dispatches, so he is not reading this anymore.

I have no idea why? We get a little touchy on the Los Angeles Krav Mage (one of his main things) subjects once in awhile...?


Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: VicMackey on May 12, 2008, 04:47:46 PM
I use H&K USP .40 S&W (13+1 rds.) and S&W Model 457 .45 ACP (7+1 rds.). The first is for cold weather CCW carry as well as primary home defense gun. The second one is for warm weather CCW carry as well as a secondary home defense gun.
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: arnold on May 15, 2008, 04:00:02 AM
What!? We're not touchy, feely kinda guys? Why, I would never believe such talk!
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: fire on July 06, 2008, 10:37:28 PM
  sometimes people just drop off the net- may be just that and nothing else- as to weapons, anyone know or have an opinion on the makarov pistol- I am thinking of one, as one of my dealers have one cheap- and it is little, so ok for the uber hot summers we get here (today was 92 and 85% humidity)
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Jamie Flory on July 08, 2008, 07:24:22 AM
    I've shot a half dozen or so makarov pistols.  I myself do not terrible care for them, but I have known a couple of people who do.  What I would suggest (if it's possible) shoot the gun before you buy it.  It seemed to me that about half of the ones I've shot had some problem or another (it's been years but i seem to remember extraction problems being common).  When you get one that works as advertised, it's an OK gun.

Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: hogg70 on September 08, 2008, 08:08:57 PM
I have a Makarov Would recommed  change recoil spring to wolf 19# hornady xtp factory stuff for SD gun show stuff to practice uncle mikes holster less than $275 summer gun, very hot weather use kel-tec p3at, winter carry colt 1991 compact with that stuuupid plastic trigger changed. remember the #1 rule in a gun fight-to have one! also shot placement-shot placement-shot placement! jm2sense?
Title: Re: Handgun recommendation
Post by: Professor on October 09, 2008, 11:36:22 PM
It all boils down to this. Get what you like and can afford in the largest caliber possible, that you can shoot well. All of the rest means zippo.

Preach it my brother from another mother.

I love my kimber ultra carry (1911 in .45):


But, my new bond arms derringer is sweet (45 long colt and .410)