Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: whitewolf on January 10, 2008, 12:07:43 PM

Title: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 10, 2008, 12:07:43 PM
All-over the past year or so i  have participated in the forum-i  have learned quite a lot from all who write in-here is a thought-i have not read about tactics to finish the job in one or two moves-so-here is one i was taught by a green baret (vietnam era)
1-Opponent reaches for you with both hands
2-You block out with forearms at angle-grabbing your thumbs drive his chin back-stab eyes
3-immediately swing left hand in a circular  motion palm to  groin
4-as he bends -your right forearm strikes his back of neck and wraps around head pulling chin as your left  hand pushes his head  to  clockwise-snapping neck-he will continue around
and almost flip to  ground.
practise in slow  motion and be careful..-whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 11, 2008, 11:20:42 AM
Ouch!!!
I'll share this one with some of my boys this weekend.
For the street, I'd think a front snap kick or knee to the groin would be more efficient; for the rice paddies of Vietnam, I can see that hooking palm heel strike to the groin as the preferred tool for the occasion. We'll run a couple of different scenario's and I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for sharing! 
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 11, 2008, 02:25:56 PM
Whitewolf,
Look at Hock's Training Mission Two book, Unarmed Combatives, Stomp Kick Option Awareness Combat Scenario.

1) Block incoming hook punch with left hand, eye-strike with right hand.
2) Front snap kick to groin, forearm to neck.
3) Insert the wrap around the head with your right hand, upward palm-heel strike with your left while pulling on the chin...
4) Finish with stomp kick, if necessary.

It's all about the inserts! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 11, 2008, 10:26:43 PM
Dawg-sounds about the same-thats good to  know-in reality  there are not that many different kinds of KOs just the entrance to the tactic depending on the situation-the part where the neck is struck can be employed from a variety of situations-the part where the hands are locked together by intelocking the thumbs is good for older students who are not very strong but this motion driving up into the chin face area and stabbing the eyes hopefully will give them a  chance to leave the area quickly while the attacker is recovering-i showed that to the rape victims i have taught in the past- stay in touch whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 13, 2008, 11:03:34 AM
Dawg-ist did you try the tactic i mentioned? Here is one more-
Its called the running block:
1-As opponent comes towards you with outstretched right arm or starts to grab with same  you start running towards him at slight angle away and you:
A-block with right forearm at the 10 oclock area
B-as you block you shoot the left palm towards his forehead hooking his right (closest)
   eye as you hit the forehead -with your left thumb (to blind and initiate pain)
C-pull the eye back and grab hair
D-your right palm shoots to his face area (or hammer strike or forearm strikes throat)
E-you continue past opponent and leave or turn and attack from rear.
This can turn into a throw also as you forearm the throat-
experiment step by step and slowly.
 whitewolf (I was shown these by a chinese/hawaian green baret-father from China)
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 13, 2008, 12:08:47 PM
Or you could always just punch the person once in the head !!!

Yer Uncle Nicky
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 13, 2008, 10:01:49 PM
Nick-you are a trip-love those responses-yes sir punch him once in the head would work if we all were as large and i say as large as you-i understand that one has to  stand on a
f----g  box to  reach up to you-but us normaaaaal size ones have to  adopt to the situation at  hand-i  now have to  contact Arnold about you-stay  safe  el (not Old)
lobo blanco..
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 13, 2008, 10:36:08 PM
It's got nothing to do with large (well, very little)  My instructor Mal Anderson and a guy called Tony Quinn could all generate knock out power and they were both about 5'6 ish.

De La Hoya reputedly hits like a heavyweight, others in his weight division don't hit nearly as hard.  Why?  It's not his size...it's his technique.

Learn the correct way to generate that power, hit the right target ferociously fast enough and they'll go out 99 x out of one hundred.

Yer Uncle Nicky
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 14, 2008, 10:03:46 AM
Whitewolf,
I didn't get a chance to work the techniques this weekend, but I'll make sure to try them out in some of the different classes I'll be teaching this week. Your second technique is very similar to Hock's head-twist takedown in Training Mission Two. Although the example in the book is shown as a counter to a hook punch, if you utilize the block/pass/pin drill in your training, you'll see the similarity in the technique as you utilize the head-twist takedown from the outside.
Nick,
I'm glad to hear someone else talk about just knocking the snot out of your assailant! When I'm training with my "brothers", we focus on developing our various strikes for maximum power. But, I've found that there are many people who only want to invest a minimum amount of time towards learning to defend themselves, and these type of techniques (IMO) will help to increase their odds of survival regardless of their size or physical conditioning. I really like Hock's material for this purpose. The hardcore guys? Develop those striking tools! Then, add some flesh to Hock's "skeleton", and blast away! I'm pretty sure I've heard Hock say something along the lines of "This is why we break bricks" right before he inserts some finishing technique at the end of a combat scenario.
I like to follow the three "F's" whenever possible:
1) Hit 'em First
2) Hit 'em Fast
3) Hit 'em Frequently :D
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 14, 2008, 10:26:26 AM
Dawg,

I'd add finesse mate.  I've been stabbed a few times, first, fast and frequent and I'm still here to talk about it.  If one of those clowns had ever stuck it in the right spot I dare say I wouldn't be.

This is one small area where a mate of mine, Southnarc, and I differ.  He advocates sticking the knife in someone like a sewing maching and to hell with shot placement.  If you've seen the clip on here from the Denmark stabbing there's proof the "frequent" method is not all it's cut up to be.

Yer Uncle Nicky
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 14, 2008, 10:49:02 AM
I would have to agree. Accurate weapon placement is a critical factor, regardless of the weapon used. I'm just not a "finesse" kind of guy. More of a "smash-and-trash" kind. But, I try to remain trainable!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 14, 2008, 11:27:11 AM
Nick i also agree-at the same time some of the students i have  had  in the past dont have  the knock out power to stop a opponent so---i show them some (hopefully) tactics that will help them get out of trouble-i agree also about Delahoya-hell of a fighter.
Dawg-glad you are open to other methods-both of you stay  safe whitewolf..
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Trainer on January 14, 2008, 06:04:06 PM
I like to use TAPS regardles of the technique or whats going on, i find this way i can also conserve my energy for when i need to run away screaming

Tactics
Accuracy
Power
Speed
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Nick Hughes on January 14, 2008, 08:48:29 PM
Trainer,

I'd change that to TAMP.

Power is speed and strength combined.  I.e. How much you lift determines how strong you are.  How fast you move over a given distance is how quick you are.  How fast you move the weight over the distance is how powerful you are.

Ergo, power already has speed as a component.

The "M" stands for mind-set, arguable the most critical element of a fight because if you don't have that all the techniques, speed and accuracy don't amount to a hill of beans.

As the SAS guys used to say, the right man is dangerous with a pair of scissors.

Nick
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Milldog1776 on January 14, 2008, 09:28:47 PM
Power = Force x Time / Distance

A bodybuilder who lifts 200lbs over his head is strong.

A powerlifter who lifts the same weight, but is able to do it twice as fast is more powerful.

Both lifters have worked their "Limit Strength" up to lift the 200lbs. However, the powerlifter has further trained to lift the weight explosively.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Trainer on January 14, 2008, 09:39:45 PM
yes all things being equal if you and i both lift 200 pounds and i do in 4 seconds and you do it in 2 then you would twice as powerful as me.

Spot on Nick, i was teaching DT today and and used SAS (speed aggression surprise) to overwhelm some of them. From the mental aspect i was MORE goal orientated and MORE dedicated and MORE motivated to beat them than they were to beat me. Thus I won the war, that time around. I also told them that the next time we meet they better have their mental shit together because mercy only exists on the mat not on the street.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 14, 2008, 10:31:32 PM
Trainer-excactly why a  lot of traditional martial arts dojos teach self defense???
That on the street gets one hurt-Just about all teach "Mercy" -have a referee-point system-cant hit at vulnerable areas-etce etc-that gives the student a a mind set of being able to protect them selves and then "surprise" when they are overwelmed with someone who Bam is in their face--whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 16, 2008, 05:23:53 AM
Whitewolf,
I included the first combat scenario you mentioned in this thread as we were working on palm-heel strikes and head-twist takedowns in class last night. Everyone enjoyed the material; used the opportunity to tell the class about this forum, you and your Green Beret friend (gotta give credit where it's due!) ;D
The only problem we had was after the neck strike, the head didn't always turn to lend itself to a grab with the neck striking hand to facilitate a head twist with the chin striking hand. It did, however, make for a very effective head capture for a powerful frontal takedown to set up some easy hammer-fists or elbow strikes to the neck, or head-slams to the pavement. Thanks for adding another tactic to my always hungry bag of tricks! 
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 16, 2008, 11:54:06 AM
Dawg-glad you tried it-my instructor always told us that when we go into the attack it  might not always go as in the class room-glad you adopted it-also on that neck twist he also  showed us part 2 where as attacker is twisted you dont actually throw him around but keep you arm around the chin and with the othe hand follow him to the ground
as you say slam into  deck or other tactics such as pull hair up and slam face into deck 2/3  times-then you can go into rear neck  choke or other . What he did was just try to keep it simple but effective.,and quick as possible.
Question where are you  located in the states or other place?Anywhere near tn.?
I hope to go to germany in march to take seminar with Hock-i really hope i  can swing the trip. stay  safe whitewolf..
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 16, 2008, 02:27:44 PM
I'm currently calling Meridian, MS my home. Meridian is in the upper north east corner of Mississippi. Depending on where you're going in TN, it might be just as close to us as Dallas (8 1/2 hour drive, one way). I've been to Dallas a couple of times to train with Hock, Rawhide, "Arnold", and the Mad Professor, along with a few other SFC members. Let me know when you're going to TN; maybe I can talk a few of my boys into making a road trip. Hock's coming here Feb. 9th and 10th. Let the chaos begin!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 16, 2008, 02:39:02 PM
Dawg-i live in clarksville Tn-its not far from you-if i  get to the states ill try to contact you and ill come your  way-would like to train and learn from you also-hope you dont mind a 69 year old crazy son of a bitch- (just kiddding i am pretty quiet)-whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 16, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
Whitewolf,
Come on down! I just had a 67 year old sign up for the self-defense class I teach on Tuesday nights. Mr. Carr (the owner of Black Eagle Martial Arts) is in his mid-fifties. I'm only 45, so I could use another mature fella to help me keep the young bucks in line. Hopefully, you won't mind training with a couple of squids; I'm retired Navy and one of my training partners is a Navy veteran as well (now THAT boy can tell you some stories!).
I hope you weren't kidding about being crazy; I take it as a compliment when I hear about people talking about how crazy I am. I'm also not very quiet; I laugh very loud and as frequently as possible. Life's far too short not to have a good time! Feel free to give me a call or PM any time.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 20, 2008, 10:24:13 AM
Dawg-ill keep the visit in mind-here is  my  e  mail-whitewolfmc9999@yahooo.com for the future-i would like to  train with your group-as far as you being a squid-no problem-i  had so  much  time at  sea with the FMF i  thought i  was  a sailor--semper  fi whitewolf..
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 22, 2008, 06:54:03 AM
Cool! I look forward to your visit.
I spent so much time in "cammies" from '92-'95 that people were shocked when they saw me in Navy dress whites. Most of the civilians at that command just assumed I was a Marine. On the one hand, I thought that was kind of humorous considering the Navy insignia on my cap and my collars; on the other hand, I also took it as quite the compliment. I've always enjoyed training with the Marines, and have always respected their military bearing and professionalism.
Take care out there.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 22, 2008, 10:45:48 AM
Doag=ok Hopefully in  may ill be in  Clarksville-for sure ill come down to Meridian to work out-some time before then send me address/phone number so i  can put it in address book-if its ok here is another tactic (from the Baret)
1-as opponent reaches with his left you step off center line towards your right and forearm block to  his extended arm with your left forearm (around 9-10 oclock area)
2-then stepping with your left foot -drive your left forearm around his neck striking with
forearm area
3-continue wraping the arm around and swing your body around  to his right
back of  him as you go into naked choke-but==
keep swinging around follow  him down to  ground and smash his head into pavement raise his head up  little and resmash-then complete choke and finish him off-(when you are lifting his  head back up you are using your left forearm)
the idea is to  disorient him with the smashes or physically finish him off even  before you choke him out.
so now you  got the chin strike-running block/eye jab  and rear smash/naked choke
practise slowly and carefullly-repeat over and over-then have victim with back to person and as reolizes someone is comming attack with one of the 3-
all of these can be modified to your type tactics-stay  safe-whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on January 22, 2008, 10:54:31 AM
Opps-spelled your ame wrong-dawg-sorry -also  on the last tactic thought i  would review the part where you swing him around-actually he is swung around to  his  leftso that you are pushing him down with you  right palm-sorry i  was sleepy when i  typed it-whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 22, 2008, 12:00:54 PM
I'll give that one a try tomorrow. I've got a training partner that lets me experiment on stuff on Wednesdays.
I usually pass the arm and use a forearm (or clothesline) strike to setup for the rear-naked choke. But, I like any technique that involves smashing my opponents head to the pavement. Try as I might to toughen my hands, they just never seem to get as hard as the street. But, I keep on trying!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on January 22, 2008, 12:27:03 PM
Oops! I get it now; you are passing when you step off the center line to your right.
Steps 1 and 2 are same set-up I use already; I'll try adding step 3. Sounds like fun!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on February 03, 2008, 11:44:42 AM
Dawg and all-internet has been down for a week here in the mideast-cable was cut-some is up now so ill try to  send this out-i received a message from a  forum by a Mr Perkins out of  NY (a former PO) -a member of  the guardian angels  in South Africa (forget the politics please)  said that the favorite method of knife attack  there was holding the knife like a ice pick and bend the wrist to the side while the knife is down by your side-then the attacker brings it up quickly and rips with the point and then repeated jabs-the other hand is up near  face as a block or used as a strike-Mr Perkins response was very  difficult to  defend against that attack-you   have to get  away or have some type weapon to defend with-he had more to  say about this type attack  but i thought i  would just put down part of  it-comments...
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on February 04, 2008, 02:23:28 PM
Whitewolf,
For simplicity's sake, we'll assume the knife wielder is right handed and slashing with a reverse-grip towards me at my six to eight o'clock angles of defense. Try this:
1) Downward forearm block w/simultaneous forearm strike/hammerfist to neck region,
2) maintain forearm contact as you move to your left, use right hand on neck/shoulder of assailant for control (I like to add a knee strike to the midsection here, but not necessary),
3) let forearm slide up to the inside of his elbow as you continue to move outside and use a rear arm bar hammerlock to control or take opponent down (I like to add knee strike to head or footstomp here ;D).
You can use this against the saber grip stab or slash from this position, also. Nice thing about the reverse grip; you might end up impaling him with his own knife on the blocking portion. While doing this in class, we end up with a lot of (unintentional!) impact disarms.
I hope this helps!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on February 05, 2008, 10:47:50 PM
Good MorningDawg-it took quite awhile to be able to send a reply as the region here is still expering inernet problems-anyhow-that response seems good-sense i dont have a partner ill try it with my punching bag-i do have a couple questins-1-when you practise is the attacker standing still in  front of the victim or is the attacker moving towards  him-
2-is the response basically the same when the attacker is movong towards you and then when about 5-6 feet away  he charges at you-
3-do you think the average victim would just throw  his hands up towards his own  face and try to  block and then get slashed whle attacker  moves in?
I try to dissect responses and see how i can over come them as a atttacker that way i can better understand  and respond-comments- and stay  safe-whitewolf..
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on February 06, 2008, 06:36:36 AM
Good questions! I'll try to provide some decent answers.
1) From the scenario you described, the attacker is already in close range to use the reverse grip slash in a powerful upward motion from your 6-8 o'clock point of view.
2) For me, the answer would be "No". If someone charges me from that distance, I'm changing angles and would use techniques such as those in Hock's "Chain of the Knife" or others that would enable me to capture the weapon bearing limb rather than just blocking the initial strike.
3) Actually, no. If the attacker's initial attack comes from the lower clock angles, the intended victim should instinctively move his arms toward the incoming threat or try to move his entire body away from the threat (key word being should!).
Just to let you know; used your scenario in two different classes last night. Consistently impaled attacker with his own knife when attack came straight up from 6 o'clock.
Diagonal attacks from 7 and 8 o'clock didn't result in impalement's, but rear arm bar hammerlock was easily utilized to set up takedown and finish.
Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on February 06, 2008, 12:08:21 PM
Dawg-thanks -good info-what i am doing now is reading newspapers in the crime sections and any crime that has to  do  with a knife as a weapon i look to see if it is mentioned  on the set up for the attack and the actual attack-as that is the weapon of  choice in this  area-hopefully the internet is about 100% so i can stay in touch with forum more-stay  safe-whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: oz man on February 09, 2008, 05:43:03 AM
"EVEN THE BEST LAID PLANS DON'T SURVIVE FIRST CONTACT WITH THE ENEMY"
Put as many tricks up your sleeve as you can and have the muscle memory to throw em out. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, try and have something else up your sleeve when the time comes. thats the reality boys, black and white.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on February 09, 2008, 10:04:06 PM
oz man,
Change that to:
"Even the best laid plans don't always survive first contact with the enemy" and I'd agree with you.
I also agree with having as many tools in your little (or gigantic) combat toolbox as possible.
Reality, however, in this context or any other, is seldom black and white.
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: whitewolf on February 20, 2008, 06:28:58 AM
Dawg-see my post on every art has a weakness-thoughts please=whitewolf
Title: Re: Quick KOs
Post by: Dawg on February 20, 2008, 01:44:07 PM
Good stuff!
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