Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

General Category => Unarmed Combatives => Topic started by: Bryant on April 11, 2008, 06:00:39 PM

Title: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Bryant on April 11, 2008, 06:00:39 PM
can anybody recommend any good books
on this topic (not dim mak...please!)
"The Dragons Touch" , was not a bad book
if you ignore the ninja outfits and the unrealistic applications
the anatomical information was very thorough
B.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Milldog1776 on April 11, 2008, 10:30:36 PM
Kill or Be Killed by Rex Applegate!
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Karl on April 12, 2008, 04:05:02 AM
Pressure points Military H2H FM 21-150
Wesley Brown-Self Defense.
Principal of Self Defense_Jeff Cooper.
John Minnery-Kill without Joy.
Pressure Points-Bruce Tegner.

Thats just a few.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: arnold on April 12, 2008, 05:23:16 AM
Think or Don't Think by Nick Hughes  ::)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on April 12, 2008, 07:48:51 AM
Meditation (hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm) book of secret attacks (you have to go in the closet to read it (bring a flashlight)-here is a hint of whats in ch 1:
Chapter 1=Use of a baseball bat (32 inch louisville slugger) against
               A-Knee cap
               B-Brain housing group
               C-elbow
               D-downward smash against shoulder
               E-strike from rear to neck area (angling upward towards the rear of the brain
                  brain housing group
A-E comes from street altercations in the Newark NJ area and all the way to Sea side heights---whitewolf (el lobo blanco)  (drain pipe can be substituted for the Bat)



Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on April 12, 2008, 07:51:51 AM
Sorry-guess i just got carried away and my  mind went back a few years-try Hocks information its up to  date.  whitewolf (el lobo blanco)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Bryant on April 15, 2008, 01:31:42 PM
after a certain point it becomes more academic than practical , but i still find it interesting
B.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Benjamin Liu on April 15, 2008, 05:49:55 PM
If you want weak points to injure someone rather than pressure points for control, what about an anatomy textbook or a book on first aid or emergency medicine?
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Nick Hughes on April 17, 2008, 09:46:17 AM
"Think or Don't Think" has been out of print for years now.

Ever since Arnold released "The Emasculated Male" a tale of a man with rat dogs and Eyetalian motorbikes it just wasn't feasible to keep selling mine.

You may also want to seek out his other book "In The Know" Keeping Your Ear to the Ground which is a big book about listening to dog turd's.

Finally his newsletter is a wealth of knowledge...hang on, that's not his, I was looking at Time magazine...his newsletter is actually a blank piece of paper called "Happening Things in My Neighborhood" by A Bratwurstthwacker

He has several other newsletters in the same vein i.e. they're all blank

One is called "Good Italian Bikes I've Owned"

the 2nd is "Beautiful Homes of New Jersey"

the 3rd is "Nice Places to Visit in NJ"

and the final one is "Land Manatees I Haven't Slept With" which, according to his blind neighbor, is a tour de force, not to be missed.

yer Uncle Nicky
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Nick Hughes on April 17, 2008, 09:47:46 AM
On a serious note...you might try the old "Medical Implications of Karate Blows"  It was written by an Ed Parker black belt if memory serves and wasn't a bad book.  Might be out of print but I bet you can find a copy on E-Bay or Amazon.

Nick
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on April 17, 2008, 10:17:03 PM
Hey-how come no one liked my drain pipe weapon-i saw it used and it works-blood shot out of the top of the poor guys head like old faithful-he was down for the count right then..whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Bryant on April 18, 2008, 11:58:06 AM
guess that just goes to show that any point is a weak point if you hit it hard enough...
 ;)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on April 18, 2008, 03:24:35 PM
Yep-the guy was running from a gang and one pulled off part of a drain pipe and as the guy was attempting to climb up a  wall he was struck and fell-oh well long time ago -whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Hock on August 31, 2011, 12:50:21 PM
For a knife...
they are here

   http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product487.html

Shamelessly,
Hock
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 17, 2011, 11:22:28 PM
Theres a book, years old now called '' Black Medicine ''
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: VicMackey on September 21, 2011, 05:33:00 PM
-eyes
-throat
-groin
-ribcage
-kidneys
-thighs
-hip joint
-knee joint
-forearm
-nose, including the tip
-jaw
-tailbone
-shin
-feet
-ulna
-top of hand
-ulna/wristbone
-fingers
-funnybone/elbow joint
-ankle joint
-side of neck
-ears
-behind the ears
-armpits
-achilles heel
-solar plexus
-shoulder joint
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 22, 2011, 02:48:30 AM
Knifes ( stabbing ) : Inside the collar bone, The anus,Just under the ear lobe at the back of the jaw.

Knifes ( Slashing ) : The forehead, Trapezoid muscles, outside knee

Strikes : Mouth with teeth closed, windpipe, right between the eyes.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 22, 2011, 06:53:32 AM
Webby-some how when i think of the blade in the anus I just shutter-that would hurt to no END (no pun intended- ;D)
I see you list a lot of hits to the facial area-slashing or striking at a
vulnerable point on the head would cause massive blood, and shock i assume. From what i have read and been told a stab to the body area might not even be noticed in the heat of the battle but when the face is ripped open its a different story altogether- WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: JimH on September 22, 2011, 09:05:33 AM
Many have been slashed or stabbed and because they did not see an injury or feel the blood right away they thought they were punched or struck in some manner and continued on,until told they were bleeding or they had severe blood loss.
Allow the opponent to see the blood,stab or slash injury and many start to go into shock.

Empty hand strike vunerable points:
Eyes,nose,throat,neck,points on the jaw,ears,groin ,bladder joints,to name a few .
Like in Karate Kid 3 movie,Quick Silver Rules:
If they cannot see,breathe  or stand you win.
That movie ,to me,showed the difference between Reality and Sport.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Canuk on September 22, 2011, 10:33:45 AM
Had my head split open once in a fight (nasty gash to head ) blood everywhere the other guy turned away so fast i thought the blood belonged to him, turned out it was mine! got in my eyes and i couldnt see shit. still had to fight on.

Oh and the injury was caused by a head butt, with both butted at the same time
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 22, 2011, 04:41:17 PM
Basically same thing happened to me-I had detained a thief and we really had a fight-somehow i tore my elbow and blood was everywhere (like what was just mentioned) when it was over and he was held for arrest we all thought the blood was his but nope-mine-when i saw it i said
dam-did not faint but did get a little shakey-but recovered- WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 23, 2011, 02:17:16 AM
WW, Correct on both points blood in the eyes ' Freaks ' people out. The stab in the anus was part of the SAS training in WW2. Massive so called
' Deep ' shock, major blood loss and critically the inability to apply pressure to stem that flood of blood. The anus contract's opening the wound inside the body cavity and outside. It litterally pumps blood out of the body. Very serious life threatening injury.     
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: TLE on September 23, 2011, 05:13:07 AM
Question- does sparring and competition hurt our abiltiy to access targets ( many of which are off limits in competition) in the heat of combat? Shouldn't the great percentage of our training be on targeting and shutting down the opponents abiltiy to see, breath, move, as quickly as possible? I think it is a mindset- it's not thinking about how to fight someone- it's how to kill someone. Huge difference.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 23, 2011, 05:54:48 AM
TLE- Personally I think that sparring/compition only helps you-as the more you do the more you attempt to think ahead (like a checkers game)
so u can get ahead of the other guy.
As for killing-in the civilian sector its a game of survival-how to overcome and get out-the students i teach for the most part talk about -what if???
how do I protect myself?? things like that. The police officers are concerned with escalation of force regulations. I have not had anyone say
how do i just kill him in thise words.....Both the civilian and the police both want to go home and study techniques to insure that occurs.....WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Kentbob on September 23, 2011, 06:49:10 AM
Question- does sparring and competition hurt our abiltiy to access targets ( many of which are off limits in competition) in the heat of combat? Shouldn't the great percentage of our training be on targeting and shutting down the opponents abiltiy to see, breath, move, as quickly as possible? I think it is a mindset- it's not thinking about how to fight someone- it's how to kill someone. Huge difference.

I don't believe the proper type of sparring, where blows to the head and face, as well as ribs, legs, and stomach are allowed, is detrimental to a person's fighting ability.  And I definitely support the idea of kill shot sparring.  I think that, as Hock says, some is necessary.  Too much is detrimental, but if you spend about 15% of your training time sparring?  I think it's good for you, in preparation for the street.

Kent
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: TLE on September 23, 2011, 07:05:02 AM
I agree WW. Awareness, avoidance, and escape are the absolute cornerstones of civilian sd training. It's not about winning but surviving. I don't believe you will have many students if your goal is to teach how to kill.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: JimH on September 23, 2011, 07:35:22 AM
It should not be about Killing an attacker,it should be about disabling them from being able to continue to attack you.

Sparring is good.
If sparring is used for sport then it must have rules,and some vital targets are off limits.
If sparring is used for self defense then  we must limit strikes to muscle mass areas and direct our strikes to vital targets.
Now to do that one needs a suit or to go through the motions with caution and care for your partner.

I believe in scenarios over free sparring as all points,attack and response ,or potential threat and preemptive action are controlled and can be replicated over and over.

When training I always strike vital points with care.
Strike the side of the neck,palm heel to the chin,fingers into the eyes as the head is driven back and down,knee to the groin as the hips jut out as head goes back.
If responding to a hay maker,strike to incoming arm,simultaneous strike to side of the neck ,go for a trachea grab,(or slide into the trach grab instead of strike to side of neck),sweep the attackers legs from the rear and drop down with control on the trachea and arm,you decide the ending.

I do not teach and I do not do attacks / strikes to body mass targets,except when Bumping ,using body  and weight to make a shoulder strike into the attackers body center line ,drive them back,staying on them delivering elbows and knees to head ,groin,bladder.

We also use a lot of joint attacks,control,pain,breaks and take downs.

We do not like to teach and or engage in an exchange,or free sparring.
Kicks are low line ,to knee,or stop / check type kick,to close distance,make contact and destroy or create pain on target.

We only train to close the gap and work from the inside position.

My opinions based on what we / I do.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: TLE on September 23, 2011, 08:33:03 AM
Jim H-From the approach described, I would enjoy training with you guys.
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 24, 2011, 06:38:23 AM
The longer the fight goes on the more the likelihood of being hurt. Spar but keep it short and fast. I don't see people watching there back enough in most sparring session's. Strike but then check over your shoulder's and keep moving. Focusing on one person in front of you leaves you open to attack from others. Hurt the guy and switch to the next one. Don't waste time and effort. 
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Kentbob on September 24, 2011, 08:11:02 AM
The longer the fight goes on the more the likelihood of being hurt. Spar but keep it short and fast. I don't see people watching there back enough in most sparring session's. Strike but then check over your shoulder's and keep moving. Focusing on one person in front of you leaves you open to attack from others. Hurt the guy and switch to the next one. Don't waste time and effort.

Sound advice.  I can see it now, a sparring session, one on two.  Two guys face off in the usual manner, and then the third constantly tries to approach the "defender" in order to sucker punch him from behind.  I like it.

Kent
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 24, 2011, 08:18:10 PM
The 1 against 2 or 3 is standard procedure in many krav classes as well as with other H2H  instructors-
In our school we have a strudent stand with eyes closed-he is pushed from behind he opens eyes moves forward attacks a opponent holding a shield then turns and attacks the 2nd who is moving towards him, in addition at times a 3rd holding a training baton comes off the side and attacks which student moves to block,attack and attempt to disarm.
This is a stress type drill and not easy if it goes on . Newer students are
given slack,more experienced are pushed harder in the drill. WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 24, 2011, 10:20:21 PM
Sound drill WW. We see in real situations that those who are not active in '' the fight '' are happy to join in when the victim is downed or cornered. One opponant often becomes many when you are hurt. People throw there hands up '' Not me I'm not into this ! '', then 2 seconds later they are striking the person in the back. Train for multipule opponants, people faining non-intervention, the pack mentally. Watch your back. Eyes and ears at all times. 
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Canuk on September 25, 2011, 12:10:14 PM
I see this in firearms training too, not enough people looking around for other threats before holstering the weapon 
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 25, 2011, 12:47:27 PM
One of my old teachers in Nursing training used to sidle up to people in scenario training then smile and walk off. She had stuck a paper sign in there back saying '' I was killed because I was complacent ''. 99 times out of a hundred it would have to be pointed out to people that the sign was there. It was a great little training tool really keep your eyes open and mind focused. It's often the quiet person who can be the most dangerous type. 
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 25, 2011, 05:21:13 PM
We drill it into their heads when disengaging for any reason they have to scan as they move back from side to side moe than 90 degrees-that is paramount-we also have the look for a expedient weapon nar by i.e.
stick,botttle, chair etc etc. WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 29, 2011, 04:08:20 AM
All training ultimately creates a better understanding of the skills needed to complete a task. Most people tend to focus on that one task. Consentrating on sawing, hammering etc.
In a real fight situation it's completely the opposite many multiple tasks to complete the important one being don't get draw in on one person. They have mates !!   
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Canuk on September 29, 2011, 05:06:58 AM
SHCIT it's all SHCIT (Shit Heads Come In Twos)
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: cfadeftac on September 29, 2011, 11:34:05 AM
One of the lead doormen who taught me at a seminar, big guy lot's of street cred, and the smoothest big guy I've ever seen, suggested that you always drag the "not me" type friends of the aggressor into the fight.  He felt that they would join in anyway so why not deal with them before they expect it, as well if you end up in court because someone got seriously hurt it was easier to say there was more of them.

He was also heavily in to avoidance and verbal diffusion but he felt that once it was on it was on.

Andrew
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 29, 2011, 12:19:50 PM
gfad--that makes sense-but would you elabarate on the way you bring them into the problem-do you verbably say to one of them -whats your problem? or do you actually angle towards them? thanks WW
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: Webby on September 30, 2011, 12:39:23 AM
The verbal stuff is important. Saying '' Stop or I'll use force '' is the phrase I teach. It's intended as much for witness's as the aggressor. I have seen the power of witness memory in court. It's better to be seen to be the reasonable guy, rather than shouting '' Die you **** ! ''. In court it comes over much better. Watch the hand gestures as well calming, passive not the '' Come on then '' beckoning motion. CCTV is unforgiving if you over-react.   
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: cfadeftac on September 30, 2011, 01:05:44 AM
Whitewolf,

He had good timing so he would drag them in just as it kicked off either by physically dragging them in or hitting them on the way to the agressor.   
He said that in court it always looked better if there was more than one guy against him.

I do emphasize that he was big on recognizing and avoiding problems, (he had military, bouncing, and bodyguarding experience) and only used this tactic if he was sure he would have no choice but to use force and alot of it.  Not just some loudmouth trying to look tough.

Andrew
Title: Re: anatomical weakpoints
Post by: whitewolf on September 30, 2011, 06:36:02 AM
Andrew and Webby-thanks-good info- WW
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